Creating a school of magickal learning on OF

[Clockwork Ghost]

The purpose of this post is solely to gauge interest in in the creation of an independent school of magickal learning on occultforum.org, as requested in a previous thread. It DOES NOT promise that such a thing will be created, it is solely here to assess interest in such a venture. Please feel free to vote above.

[Shinichi]

I haven't had the time to get involved in the other thread, but my official vote is a firm no.

Running a school or serving as a full time mentor or teacher is a huge responsibility and a massive burden of time and commitment. Any teacher of anything, no matter how much the job is enjoyed, will tell you quite plainly that it is a job whether you get paid for it or not. I have no doubt that there are a number of experienced members here who have the heart and will to give that time and commitment, but before it comes to that I ask each of them to consider the difference between wanting to help in such a venture and being able to help. That advice goes for the forum staff considering this venture as well. A full fledged student-teacher relationship is not something to take lightly, and a full on school carries a weight much greater than that. Pushing this weight onto the forum will put a certain pressure on the community that will most likely lead to tension all around.

One of the things I love about this forum is that it possesses a certain je ne sais quoi that makes it easy to relax and speak freely here. The formalities necessary for a school of any sort to function will weaken that.

I would, however, offer an alternative idea. Instead of committing to the burden of a full fledged school, perhaps OF would be better served by hosting short term and periodic study groups. This is a much smaller burden because you are not committing to any one subject for the school or even any one mentor, which lessens the responsibility of the forum staff because it is a smaller and shorter term pursuit, and it lessens the time and commitment required of the mentors who wish to step up and lead a study group. This also allows for greater subject flexibility as far as the staff may be concerned, since you can run a few 6-8 week long study groups a year, one at a time, choosing mentors and study subjects that enrich the community with variety and depth. This does not turn the forum into a school as much as it adds a sort of community function, allowing senior occultists to share their Crafts and Arts while exposing neophytes to the introductory theory and practice of a variety of subjects.

And mentors should be carefully selected, based on a number of reasonable factors (ability to explain concepts is as important as ones experience with those concepts), regardless of what path is chosen.



~:Shin:~

[Clockwork Ghost]

I haven't had the time to get involved in the other thread, but my official vote is a firm no.

Thank you very much for taking time to vote, and for including your thoughts on the topic.

One of the things I love about this forum is that it possesses a certain je ne sais quoi that makes it easy to relax and speak freely here. The formalities necessary for a school of any sort to function will weaken that.

I'm glad you feel that you can speak easy here and relax, that is definitely the environment we are aiming for. Could you please expand a bit more on why you feel adding a 'school' will change that, just so I fully understand what you mean - I'm an old bugger, and not as sharp as I used to be [grin].

I would, however, offer an alternative idea. Instead of committing to the burden of a full fledged school, perhaps OF would be better served by hosting short term and periodic study groups. This is a much smaller burden because you are not committing to any one subject for the school or even any one mentor, which lessens the responsibility of the forum staff because it is a smaller and shorter term pursuit, and it lessens the time and commitment required of the mentors who wish to step up and lead a study group. This also allows for greater subject flexibility as far as the staff may be concerned, since you can run a few 6-8 week long study groups a year, one at a time, choosing mentors and study subjects that enrich the community with variety and depth. This does not turn the forum into a school as much as it adds a sort of community function, allowing senior occultists to share their Crafts and Arts while exposing neophytes to the introductory theory and practice of a variety of subjects.

This is a very good idea, but would still also need further buy-in from other forum members. We would need people who were willing to be students for that period of time, and to take part in the study group in the way its parameters were defined, and teachers who were willing to take the time to create the study material. As I've said in the previous thread, I have received no PM messages from anyone indicating material they feel confident in teaching.

Mentors should be carefully selected, based on a number of reasonable factors (ability to explain concepts is as important as ones experience with those concepts), regardless of what path is chosen.

Please expand on this idea - if you could provide a list of maybe five criteria under which mentors could be chosen it would be fantastic. [thumbup]

[Shinichi]

I'm glad you feel that you can speak easy here and relax, that is definitely the environment we are aiming for. Could you please expand a bit more on why you feel adding a 'school' will change that, just so I fully understand what you mean - I'm an old bugger, and not as sharp as I used to be [grin].

It really depends on how seriously the school is taken, and if it would work at all then it should be taken very seriously. That creates a certain formality, or perhaps that certain reverence that is common in magical schools and orders. Those who are attracted to that atmosphere will be thus attracted to the forum that projects it, and those who do not like such formality will consequently avoid it. This does not mean a big shift in membership, though I would expect such a thing to happen, as much as it means a shift in...energy, for a lack of a better word.

This forum, like every other metaphysical forum I've been on, has its own egregore which is partially responsible for the atmosphere and je ne sais quoi I mentioned. But that atmosphere is created by the membership and their mentality, so a shift in membership and mentality (adding a school, or similar big changes) will consequently lead to changes in atmosphere as well.

Perhaps I am simply more sensitive to this than most members. I'm just pointing out that physical changes lead to metaphysical changes as well, and if any forum should take that into account, it's an occult forum. Paying attention to that sort of thing is, well, what we do.

This is a very good idea, but would still also need further buy-in from other forum members. We would need people who were willing to be students for that period of time, and to take part in the study group in the way its parameters were defined, and teachers who were willing to take the time to create the study material. As I've said in the previous thread, I have received no PM messages from anyone indicating material they feel confident in teaching.

I would be surprised if you had found any volunteers already. Those of us who actually know how hard it is usually aren't too keen to jump on this band wagon when it rolls around.

There's also something to be said for quality over quantity, so even if you don't find a lot of mentors or a lot of students, you could still make some great experiences.

Please expand on this idea - if you could provide a list of maybe five criteria under which mentors could be chosen it would be fantastic. [thumbup]

I'm no lawyer, but I am a writer. So, how about this:

1) The applicant should be of mature and legal age, with some number of years of experience behind them. Although we are aware that some younger students began their path at an early age, it must be understood that we cannot be responsible for minors.

2) The applicant should have a reputation for their knowledge that can be vetted. They do not have to be a senior member of this forum, for post count does not equal occult experience, but there should be previous forums, a blog, essays and articles or some other measure against their knowledge that shows they are capable of mentoring a group of students. We are not questioning character, as much as we are by necessity questioning one's knowledge and experience.

3) The applicant should have a reputation for their ability to explain and communicate their ideas that can be vetted. They do not have to be a senior member of this forum, but there should be some measure of their capacity to teach and explain the material that they are offering to teach. This includes, but is not limited to, the applicants capacity to answer questions about the subject of their expertise and the applicants capacity to establish rapport with peers that is comfortable and informative. This means that although one may speak of the subject of their expertise with any authority that has been naturally earned, one should not be condescending towards others who lack that authority or others who are dedicated to another subject of expertise.

4) The applicant should be capable of reading and writing fluent English, which is the standard language of this community and the language that will be used for all official lessons provided on this forum. The applicant will be expected to write a certain amount of material for lessons, but not all material depending on the subject of learning. Text may be borrowed from published training manuals and traditional texts, but all such borrowed work must be correctly cited and separated from the applicants own words. Plagiarism is illegal, and will not be condoned by this community.

5) The applicant should be capable of committing the time and attention necessary to maintain the responsibility of providing lessons on their subject of expertise. The applicant must be prepared to respond to private messages, forum posts, and any other media that is offered for the purposes of explaining material, answering questions, encouraging conversation, and anything else necessary to fulfill the responsibility of helping several people better understand the subject of learning and experience any practical benefits offered by the subject.




~:Shin:~

[Clockwork Ghost]

Thanks Shinichi - that was an excellent reply. Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions [thumbup]

[Desecrated]

Shinichi

You should have read the original thread, most of what you wrote has already been brought up-.

[Shinichi]

Shinichi

You should have read the original thread, most of what you wrote has already been brought up-.

That is true and fair, but there are two good reasons for me to focus on this thread. First, I have been very busy as of late and I simply have not had the time to get involved in the other thread. I mentioned this earlier. Second, many of the people who notice this thread and cast their vote will not even be aware of the other thread, much less have read it. This is the official thread for voting and comment.

So I cast my comment with my ballot.



~:Shin:~

[manonthepath]

I agree that starting a school would be too big of an undertaking and would ultimately fail due to lack of commitment and lack of administrative skills. curriculum development is tough business, as is staffing and actually teaching the material. Would staff be paid or would volunteers be sought. It is not reasonable to expect real professionals to give hours and hours of their time to such a project without compensation. This does not even begin to touch on the development of something that would generate true interest in the membership given its diversity. would this education be free of charge? f not, how would you handle billing? What a headache for so little gain! All of these issues need to be thought through. People are free to do what they want, of course, but don't say nobody told you so! Why not simply use the many schools already out there?

http://www.social.witchschool.com/?xg_s ... es_network

https://www.circlesanctuary.org/

[Atzmuth]

Let me clear this... This work is VOLUNTARY. People who are against this idea is like " Who is going to pay to teachers? Why would a teacher do it for nothing?" etc etc. This is what voluntarily means. Nobody is going to make you teach, no one will force another or put people under pressure. If you think it is a burden, then dont join. As I say this work is voluntary and anyone who doesnt see it as a burden is welcome. And I know there are people out there who will put their hands on their hearts and do it for the community. I and others who support the idea will help with all we have. It may seem as a burden to ones who dont support the idea but for me and for people who is supporting this, It is not a burden. It is rather a project that should come alive. And always remember you dont have to do things for a price, you do it becouse it comes from your heart not from your pocket.

[Clockwork Ghost]

I would, however, offer an alternative idea. Instead of committing to the burden of a full fledged school, perhaps OF would be better served by hosting short term and periodic study groups. This is a much smaller burden because you are not committing to any one subject for the school or even any one mentor, which lessens the responsibility of the forum staff because it is a smaller and shorter term pursuit, and it lessens the time and commitment required of the mentors who wish to step up and lead a study group. This also allows for greater subject flexibility as far as the staff may be concerned, since you can run a few 6-8 week long study groups a year, one at a time, choosing mentors and study subjects that enrich the community with variety and depth. This does not turn the forum into a school as much as it adds a sort of community function, allowing senior occultists to share their Crafts and Arts while exposing neophytes to the introductory theory and practice of a variety of subjects.

~:Shin:~

People may not have noticed, but we do already have a Study Groups board. I have included a link to it below:
http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=46

[thumbup]

[Atzmuth]

Well, study groups are good. But they dont provide any information for begginers in Occult. However, this teaching group will provide new ones not only step by step knowledge but also easily accesible and reliable knowledge.

[Ramscha]

I also want to state something. Overall I support the idea of lending people a hand, especially the newcomers.
But one thing should be clear: The teachers cannot do the learning for the students. Self study and practice are up to the student, in my opinion it is not the responsibility of the teacher to take care of that in particular. The students who want to do this are up to their own responsibility, therefore I think shinichis statement regarding a certain necessary age it more then just a good idea.

I sympathise with the suggestion of Desecrated to give as teacher a practice to the group for a set amount of time (like a week or two or so). During this time it gets discussed, information is given and opinions and impressions of the students (as well as questions) should raise. At the end of the time period it can be decided if all are ready for the next step or if the time should be prolonged. I am talking about stuff like the first steps, practicing clearing the mind and such stuff.

I also suppose that it is good to give not only personal material but to use and give other literature as well as the teacher sees fit. I suppose it makes no sense to make any real exams or anything like that since all this is voluntarily and the students should know what is necessary.

This all is based on a combination of mutual trust and the knowledge of the students that what they do is in their own interest. This is my main point of worry and about the acceptance of the students. I suppose it nonsense to drag people through excersies with the attitude that they either don't want or think that all they have to do is to follow the teacher and his weekly report.

That is just a rough outline and surely not perfect, I am still collecting some thoughts on the matter, maybe I have something more to add in time.

Ramscha

[Frumens]

If someone wants to start a school, they can. Those who aren't interested won't participate. I won't participate. I voted not necessary, because it's not necessary, but that doesn't mean no one should try to make one.

I think that Clockwork Ghost has wonderful ideas for this forum. Unfortunately, most others aren't on the same wavelength.

[Atzmuth]

How much votes will be enough for this poll?

[RoseRed]

I voted not necessary.

If someone wants to create a school have at it but teaching is hard. Not everyone has the time or desire to commit to it. I've been following along with the creation of Quareia and it is a ton of work to put together a curriculum. Talk about hand on heart and devotion to an idea.

I like the idea of short term study courses verses a full blown school. It sounds a lot more manageable - especially to see if this is an area that the forum owners and admin want to take on before jumping all in.

[Clockwork Ghost]

How much votes will be enough for this poll?

The poll is simply to gauge interest in the idea, and doesn't guarantee that such a thing will actually happen. At this stage there are still too many questions left unanswered. Don't lose heart though, Atzmuth - good things take time to develop, and it's better to make sure something will be beneficial before jumping in to something that just falls to pieces around you. As I write this, you have seven people who are interested in being students, but nobody who wants to teach. There has been some good discussion on running study groups, and such functionally already exists to do so. This too would require teachers however.

[Clockwork Ghost]

Well, study groups are good. But they dont provide any information for begginers in Occult.

Not so. You can also run study groups which teach and build upon the basics.

However, this teaching group will provide new ones not only step by step knowledge but also easily accesible and reliable knowledge.

Which is exactly what you can gain from a study group. Could you please elaborate on exactly what you see to be the difference between a teaching group and a study group?

[Clockwork Ghost]

Just keeping everyone in the loop with what's going on here:

As of today, we have seven votes for and six votes against. We also have no teachers. Without teachers, we have no school. I would strongly suggest that we drop this idea and start looking in to either tutorials or study groups. Anyone who thinks they might be able to write a tutorial, or is interested in running a study group, please post expressing your interest below.

If we get anyone wanting to write up a tutorial on anything they are interested in, or run a study group, I will start up some independent threads on the Study Groups board. I have placed a link to that board below.

http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=46

I suggest that if someone wants to start a study group, or is interested in writing a tutorial, they should first make sure that people want to either join or read it. This way nobody will waste their time doing something that nobody else will buy in to.

What do you guys think?

[Deathquota]

I am for sure still interested. I would consider joining a study group and hopefully build upon my knowledge with other people there. I see how experiential knowledge can be obtained over time by ourselves. Many people feel more motivated to learn things in a group environment rather than alone, I postulate. I do understand that the personal nature if the occult can make this counterintuitive. Additionally, with other people, there are potential pitfalls that could be avoided, such as dangers or endeavors that are ultimately a waste of time. Leave the rest up to us, I suppose. At this point I don't really know if I wish to step forward and take the responsibility of orchestrating this right now (I have my own excuses of course). I hope it doesn't come off as naive or feeble to make a post like this.
P.S thanks Clockwork_Ghost
I already saw the specialist thread btw

[TheAwakenedHeart]

The following are all that I feel qualified (experience wise) to teach/make tutorials for at the moment:

- Basic Spirit Keeping: Determining if a vessel is spirited or not
- Basic Angel Magick (Doreen Virtue type - not Enochian)

I personally thought the idea of turning OF into a school was great, but I understand peoples' objections to it. However, I am willing to put in the time to teach the little that I do know because teaching is one of the best ways to reinforce your own learning.

If anyone is interested in either of those, just let me know.

I am also currently enrolled in a falun gong class. When that completes, I can also teach falun gong.

I hope to be able to teach more in the future as I become more advanced.

I can also teach the occult/alchemical symbolism of Sailor Moon...haha.

[Atzmuth]

Thanks for your interest TheAwakenedHeart. I hope this topic will raise more awareness about tue issue.

[Clockwork Ghost]

The following are all that I feel qualified (experience wise) to teach/make tutorials for at the moment:

- Basic Spirit Keeping: Determining if a vessel is spirited or not
- Basic Angel Magick (Doreen Virtue type - not Enochian)
- Occult/alchemical symbolism of Sailor Moon

I personally thought the idea of turning OF into a school was great, but I understand peoples' objections to it. However, I am willing to put in the time to teach the little that I do know because teaching is one of the best ways to reinforce your own learning.

If anyone is interested in either of those, just let me know.

FORMAL CALL FOR INTEREST IN THE ABOVE SUBJECTS

Please advise if you are interested in learning any of the above offered subjects. If there is interest in any of them, I will start a new thread on the Study groups board for the topic that is mutually decided upon, or for each topic if there is interest in several topics and TheAwakenedHeart confirms availability to run multiple study groups at once.

Thank you [thumbup]

[Eremita]

G'day TheAwakenedHeart/Clockwork Ghost. I'd be keen to learn anything that you can teach me about Angelic magick.

[Atzmuth]

Same here. I want to learn too.

[TheAwakenedHeart]

I've posted the introduction to the study group in the study groups category here:

http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... 46&t=37311

If anyone has any wisdom they would like to add to the thread, please do!