Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

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Rin
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Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by Rin »

So I'll admit that divination is far from my forte and that my technique could absolutely use some work, but I've dabbled with it enough (primarily using Tarot cards) to find that there seems to be a very distinct pattern, which is that readings will be accurate in eerily specific manners, but not in any way which provides insight upon which I can base practical action.

I'm finding this immensely frustrating, the "ohh, that's what that meant" effect. I mean what is the point in having insight if you can't act on it? Events would play out precisely the same either way, presumably.

Anyway, I'd be interested to see what you guys think on the subject, whether any of you are managing to achieve insight which can be acted upon to bring about a better outcome from a situation, and how :)

To get things rolling, I'm particular open to suggestions on good spreads, or general methodology ideas. I've been using the same one from Kraig's Modern Magick for years, which is honestly just sheer laziness.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

- DDJ, Verse 27

"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett

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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by LoneWolf »

Well, what kind of questions are you asking?

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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by Desecrated »

I find the tarot cards to be very helpful in getting a deeper understanding of the situation that I am in, and in some way suggesting solutions or path in or out of the situation.

The more information you have, the better choices you can make.

As far as the spread goes. I tend to use a smaller celtic cross when reading for myself, and the large 10 card celtic cross when reading for somebody else.
But I also like to do small 3 card draws when people have specific questions. I find that the celtic cross is better for getting an overview of the situation and 3 cards across is better for detailed oriented divination.

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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by Kami »

Divination should be regarded as a means of distinguishing the correct information from amongst those alternatives of which one is aware or able to imagine.
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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by Shinichi »

It is the job of the Oracle to provide insight into the patterns and forces working upon a particular situation. It is the job of the Diviner to interpret that information and understand it.

Sometimes that last bit is easy, and sometimes it's damn near impossible - it depends in part on the nature of the situation (whether or not a particular relationship will last is much easier to read than, say, who will win the next lottery or election), and also on the personal skill of the Diviner. How well are you connected to the Oracle you are using? How much practice do you have reading the patterns of fate, and comprehending the threads of those patterns as they are expressed by your Oracle? How good are you at formulating questions that penetrate the heart of the matter?

I don't use the Tarot much, or any of the other common methods of Divination either, but I have had plenty of success achieving practical results as a Seer. I don't usually need to consult an Oracle to see the patterns of a situation, and really only do so for fun or to get another point of view on a situation, because I usually See them myself. Often to my detriment, because I can't exactly tell good friends that the person they dearly love and wish to marry is going to damn near destroy them in a couple of years, or tell someone to not go to work on a particular day because danger is about to strike them. Even people who are open to the occult don't like to hear such things. They like to cling to their own version of reality. "He'll be such a good husband!", "It's such a beautiful day, nothing will happen." They have to go through the motions, feel the heartache and have the car wreck before they accept the truth. Perhaps such things are necessary.

Nobody listens to the Wizard, dammit. [tongue]

TLDR: just practice, man.



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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by minervajane »

I've had more luck getting practical information from the I Ching. Usually, though, I get what I need from dreams and meditations. The tarot has helped me in the past but it became very frustrating to me and seemed to give me contradictory information many times.
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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by Rin »

To be honest, I don't feel I wrote this post out very well, because I was looking less to breakdown by own practice and more to just gain some insight into what other people are achieving with divination :P

But regarding me specifically:
LoneWolf wrote:Well, what kind of questions are you asking?


Most of my questions (in fact, more or less all that I can remember) have been to do with the direction of my spiritual path. "Should I take up such and such system of practice," "should I study under so and so teacher" and so on. Sometimes a little more specific ("what is causing X problem with my practice,") but mostly very generic.

In the most recent case, which is what inspired me to create this thread, I performed a reading asking about what the results of resuming training with IIH would be (for context, I've had a chaotic couple years, in terms of spirituality, working through some serious barriers to progress and also leaving the school I had been studying in for 2 years, and was looking to re-establish a firm path).

I don't have the specific results on hand (I'll go through my journals later and dig them up, if I can find them - I know I wrote them down), but the general gist of it, as I remember interpreting it, was that I was beginning to get back on track and regain some focus (and this has been corroborated by other experiences, so I don't think it's just wishful thinking), and that there would be an emergence of a teacher or guide.

This latter part was especially strong in the reading, over multiple interpretations of the cards, but I couldn't see any opportunity for such a thing to happen, and figured either I'd botched the reading or that the reading was being metaphorical, in the "you are your own teacher"/"the system will guide you" kind of sense. Especially since it seems pretty obvious to me (and others I know with experience in such things have agreed) that Bardon put a little bit of juice into his books when he wrote them out to give a nudge to those utilizing the training.

Anyway a month later and I'd settled into working my way back through the early Steps of IIH, supplemented with some prescribed pranayama exercises and some qigong. And, somewhat out of the blue, I ended up striking up correspondence with the lineage holder of a system of qigong which I had been engaged with in the past and strongly drawn to, and over this correspondence I was not only offered the opportunity for some personal training and guidance, but it emerged that the teacher in question was uniquely qualified to help me with some of the specific barriers which have been impeding my practice.

Looking back on such a situation, it's actually pretty hard to see how the reading could have been an actionable one. Perhaps I just allowed myself to limit the interpretation by not expanding my scope of what I thought was likely to manifest within my life? But it got me thinking about divination, and about how I'd never actually had a reading which changed the way I acted out a situation even if it proved to be accurate after the fact, and I became curious if other people were getting such readings :p
Sometimes that last bit is easy, and sometimes it's damn near impossible - it depends in part on the nature of the situation (whether or not a particular relationship will last is much easier to read than, say, who will win the next lottery or election), and also on the personal skill of the Diviner. A) How well are you connected to the Oracle you are using? B1) How much practice do you have reading the patterns of fate, and comprehending the threads of those patterns B2) as they are expressed by your Oracle? C) How good are you at formulating questions that penetrate the heart of the matter?
A) Not very. As I said, it's something I bust out on a whim a couple times a year. I also don't feel that I connect to the symbolism of the Tarot very well, especially as my spiritual path has strayed away from conventional Western Hermetic praxis and worldview over the passage of time,

B1) In general terms, I feel I've developed a decent capacity here on a deeper/instinctive/intuitive level, in terms of picking up on where things are at in my life and interpreting why they are the way they are, where they are likely to be headed and what needs to be done to alter the latter, if it is desirable. With the caveat that,

B2) I don't think the divination method I've been using is particularly conducive to good results at this point, for reasons mentioned in A.

C) Not very, but again, this is an aspect of the practice which I don't feel I put a lot of thought into.
I don't use the Tarot much, or any of the other common methods of Divination either, but I have had plenty of success achieving practical results as a Seer. I don't usually need to consult an Oracle to see the patterns of a situation, and really only do so for fun or to get another point of view on a situation, because I usually See them myself. Often to my detriment, because I can't exactly tell good friends that the person they dearly love and wish to marry is going to damn near destroy them in a couple of years, or tell someone to not go to work on a particular day because danger is about to strike them. Even people who are open to the occult don't like to hear such things. They like to cling to their own version of reality. "He'll be such a good husband!", "It's such a beautiful day, nothing will happen." They have to go through the motions, feel the heartache and have the car wreck before they accept the truth. Perhaps such things are necessary.
In the spirit of what I said earlier, I'd be really interested in hearing some specific cases, as well as more about what kind of cues you're picking up on and what the experience is like on a subjective level.
Nobody listens to the Wizard, dammit. [tongue]
Perhaps you should consider a pointy hat :) Or a big, rune-graven staff.
TLDR: just practice, man.
Mm, yeah, I probably should. I think one of the problems is that it feels like I'm trivializing if I bust out divination for every small thing, so I end up leaving it for suitably "meaningful" questions, except those don't come along often enough to qualify as practice.

The more I think about it, the more I think a shift in tools is probably a good first step, if I decide to engage in divination in a more dedicated, day to day fashion. Something like the I Ching would be more in line with my current philosophical and practical engagements, and the symbolism feels a lot more precise and scientific to me than something like the Tarot.
I've had more luck getting practical information from the I Ching. Usually, though, I get what I need from dreams and meditations. The tarot has helped me in the past but it became very frustrating to me and seemed to give me contradictory information many times.
One thing I've noticed, and this may just be me and my poor technique or it may be a quirk of the Tarot specifically, but it seems that the cards are as likely to pick up on microcosmic/internal sources as they are macrocosmic/external sources. I remember many of my first few readings almost universally turned out to have very little to do with events as they actually played out, but to be a spot on representation of my anticipation regarding future events and the associated emotional states.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

- DDJ, Verse 27

"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett

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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by Shinichi »

There are many Oracles you can use besides the Tarot, and even at that, many versions of the Tarot. I've recently ordered the Wildwood Tarot, which should be arriving in the mail this week. I feel like the Mysteries in those cards should be more in line with my path than those of the conventional Tarot, so I may resonate with it more both as a Divination and as an Initiation tool. We'll see.

You can also cast lots or dice, throw bones, runes, and so on. Then there's all the -mancy arts. Pyromancy is just divination by candle flame, Aeromancy is divination by reading the changes in the wind, and so on. Divination via the Elements should be particularly doable if you're still working with Bardon's initiations, and thus the initiations of the Elemental Key. And of course, there's all the other -mancy arts. Necromancy is just divination by asking a dead person what they know. [gz]
Rin wrote: In the spirit of what I said earlier, I'd be really interested in hearing some specific cases, as well as more about what kind of cues you're picking up on and what the experience is like on a subjective level.
One of arts I practice is Spa, one of the Seidr Arts (at least, that's how I categorize it), because I have a bit of talent as a Seer. Instead of consulting an Oracle, I am the Oracle. I sit down, go into Trance, and look around. What I see are Threads, and there are different kinds of Threads. Mostly, and Spatially, there are a lot of Threads that connect people and things together according to various relationships and energy exchanges. When you zoom out, the Threads blend together into larger Threads - different neighborhoods are connected together, and their different Threads show their relationships. Towns are a bigger Thread, and States, and Nations, and so on. These Threads are what is generally broken during the "Cord Cutting" spell.

Besides being connected together Spatially, the Threads are also connected together Temporally. Because of the way the "ethers" (for lack of a better term) work, people and things tend to leave both Spatial and Temporal marks with every step and action they take. It's easier for most to See the Spatial Threads because they are all around, but once you learn to step into the Temporal Stream, they are there too. There is where it's easier for me to See all of the Threads connected together in a Temporal way, because I just zoom out more - it becomes like a big web that is constantly changing as new threads form. By following the "Temporal Trail" of the the Threads already made (by Scrying the Past), I can see the patterns that are already formed - the habits a person or community has established, the actions that led to those habits, how strong or weak they are, what their strengths and weaknesses are. By knowing the nature of a person or an environment, by knowing the patterns of what is becoming, one can generally deduce from that what may be. From there, once I follow the Thread up to the "present" existence of it, the solid Thread ends. What comes after looks, to me, like a fork in the road with many transparent Threads, some larger than others. The larger ones represent Probability, while the smaller ones represent Possibility. I can technically go down and look at all of these Threads, though I usually just look at the biggest Probabilities, or maybe check to see if a better Possibility can be changed into a Probability. However, ultimately, looking at any of those transparent Threads is little more than Daydreaming if I do not make proper use of them or if the owner of the Thread I am looking at changes their mind, because the future does not exist.

Then once I learn what I need, I come back to me and end the meditation. I don't always need to do all this to learn things, though, perhaps because I already did so much of it or perhaps because of a simple natural talent. Sometimes, somebody will simply say something about something they want or some decision, and I'll be hit with a deja vu-ish flash of vision and simply know the exact outcome of what they are talking about. Not that they ever listen until it's too late. Sigh.

Anyway, besides being a means of Divination, these Threads are also an important part of my Spellcraft. Since I can see all of the "future" paths that a Thread made take, all I have to do is pick one, and then as long as I have the juju I can empower that one Probability or Possibility until it is the "Most Probable." Then, I just have to wait for the person I spelled (even if it's me) and the people around them to make the series of decisions and actions that lead up to that particular outcome.
Rin wrote:
Nobody listens to the Wizard, dammit. [tongue]
Perhaps you should consider a pointy hat :) Or a big, rune-graven staff.
They probably still wouldn't take me seriously, but at least I could hit them over the head when I need to. [tongue]



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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by LoneWolf »

Rin,

What answer would you expect from all those "Should I do X" or "Should I do Y"? What is your paradigm on free will?

I will assume you believe in some degree of free will and then point out that from whichever intelligence you'd get your answer it feels to me that questions like that lead to 0 practicality, right? Can't you do whatever you want to? Why should the inteligence choose a path and bind you to it for example, the GD? Maybe you may think that it replies for the benefit of the whole ie. you doing your Magnus Opus as quickly as possible. However, does it know that it is your will to do that?

In my scarce experience the best way to ask is if I do X what will happen?

By the way, Lately I'm drawn to Qigong. I have 0 experience. Any recommendations to get started? Books etc?

--------------------
Shinichi,

Very interesting.

What diferentiates probability and possibility on what you typed?

Could you expand on how you developed the ability to see? What do you have to do before each session? I imagine seeing them everytime you go into a trancey state without having to "open" the conduct might be somewhat of a disturbance. Did you specifically train for it? Were you taught? How was your first experience like?

Regards

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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by Shinichi »

LoneWolf wrote:What diferentiates probability and possibility on what you typed?
Probability is what is more likely to happen. Possibility can happen, but is less likely. Like, I can participate in that hex against Trump, but the Most Probable outcome is that I won't. There are a lot of reasons for that, each their own Thread, but all of those Threads merge together into the Most Probable outcome of that particular "future."

Probability is usually what you get as an answer when you consult an Oracle like the Tarot or I Ching, unless you frame your question to specifically ask about something less likely. Like, "could Emilia Clarke fall in love with me?" The answer may be yes, but when and how are you gonna get a chance to seduce Emilia Clarke? [tongue]
LoneWolf wrote:Could you expand on how you developed the ability to see?
When I was young a spirit showed up and told me something that was going to happen in my future, and showed it to me. It was something that I very much did not want at the time, and I spent the next decade trying to figure out ways to battle Fate and live as I pleased. Over the course of that decade, this is something that just kind of showed up. It's kind of like how Chess players analyze several moves ahead, except I ended up seeing things on a bigger scale.

So I guess you could say it was an accident of sorts, or maybe some kind of talent that just needed a catalyst like that spirit to wake up. I know other members in my family have the sight to varying degrees, though most of their experiences are a lot more passive than mine. Prophetic dreams, a sudden flash of intuition or a sudden unexpected vision. Things like that. I'm the only one in my family that does what I described, as far as I know.
LoneWolf wrote:What do you have to do before each session?
Nothing, usually. I mean, all those things you read about in the old grimoires certainly help. Take a cleansing shower, meditate or pray, practice in a place you consider sacred, and all that stuff - it helps you "get in the zone," as it were, and for important rituals using all that to get deeper into "the zone" can be an important factor of success. Mostly, however, I just do what is described in Fundamental Development. I center my mind, I ground my heart, and then I dive in. That's goes for most of my Magick, and sometimes I don't even need to do that - because, as I think I said in Fundamental Development, the ultimate goal is to be in a Grounded and Centered state all the time. [wink2]
LoneWolf wrote:I imagine seeing them everytime you go into a trancey state without having to "open" the conduct might be somewhat of a disturbance.
Nah, you get used to it and tune them out, so most of the time now I need to actively turn my awareness onto them. Just like someone in New York tunes out all the city noise in order to sleep. A lot of things come up when you go into Deep Trance, after all. Or at least it does for me.
LoneWolf wrote:Did you specifically train for it? Were you taught?
I didn't consciously train for it, though I can look back and see now certain things that could be called "practice" in a way. I just didn't think of it at the time.

I wasn't taught, unless you count the Fates eventually kicking my ass for trying to change things that shouldn't be, but I've learned over time that what I do is somewhat similar to what Benjamin Rowe calls Scrying. Nick Ferrel's book on Imagination is also a good resource on this topic. The only difference is, instead of just Scrying the Inner Realm, or a Tarot Card, or something else like that, my mind delves into the Webs of Fate and I see how things are connected.
LoneWolf wrote:How was your first experience like?
It's hard to clearly remember something from so long ago, but as best as I recall, it felt like little more than the way I feel when reading several moves ahead in Chess. I was given a "problem" (the spirits vision of my fate), and I was trying to form strategies to work around it. But the more I looked, the more my awareness expanded, until eventually I learned to see the Web for what it is.



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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by Rin »

Rin,

What answer would you expect from all those "Should I do X" or "Should I do Y"?
Again, I perhaps didn't articulate myself very well :p Those were brief examples of the subject matter - when actually performing the divination, I would frame it in a more open form. So with the example I used, it would have been along the lines of "What is the likely outcome of resuming the Initiation Into Hermetics course as my primary curriculum of spiritual training at this time?"

What is your paradigm on free will? I will assume you believe in some degree of free will and then point out that from whichever intelligence you'd get your answer it feels to me that questions like that lead to 0 practicality, right?



Without philosophizing too much, yes I believe in free will, although it is, of course, within certain confines.
Can't you do whatever you want to? Why should the inteligence choose a path and bind you to it for example, the GD? Maybe you may think that it replies for the benefit of the whole ie. you doing your Magnus Opus as quickly as possible. However, does it know that it is your will to do that?
I think we're getting down to a clash of worldviews here. While I'll admit it's not something that I've put a tremendous amount of thought into, I don't really think of divination in terms of "intelligences," at least not as I've practiced it (although I understand that it would function this way under different models eg. necromancy).

But with methods like Tarot which don't require a direct request to an outside awareness for information, I've always understood it as more a process of picking up on the flow of energy and awareness and extrapolating from that - something very loosely akin to a kind of metaphysical weather forecast. I believe (tentatively) that the Tarot (or I Ching, etc) functions as a kind of "translator," allowing your subconscious (for lack of a better term) to select certain symbols which represent the likely pattern of the more distant future based on the state of the present and the near future.

By the way, Lately I'm drawn to Qigong. I have 0 experience. Any recommendations to get started? Books etc?
Sure, I'll shoot you a PM.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

- DDJ, Verse 27

"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett

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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by Rin »

There are many Oracles you can use besides the Tarot, and even at that, many versions of the Tarot. I've recently ordered the Wildwood Tarot, which should be arriving in the mail this week. I feel like the Mysteries in those cards should be more in line with my path than those of the conventional Tarot, so I may resonate with it more both as a Divination and as an Initiation tool. We'll see.
You should post about your results with the new deck, if you have the time. It would be interesting to see if the differing art and the compatibility between your own path and the design of the cards influences the outcome. I googled the deck and the art I could see is brilliant stuff.
You can also cast lots or dice, throw bones, runes, and so on. Then there's all the -mancy arts. Pyromancy is just divination by candle flame, Aeromancy is divination by reading the changes in the wind, and so on. Divination via the Elements should be particularly doable if you're still working with Bardon's initiations, and thus the initiations of the Elemental Key. And of course, there's all the other -mancy arts. Necromancy is just divination by asking a dead person what they know. [gz]
I figure the dead have better things to do than answer my questions :p I'm still working the basic IIH self-development exercises (the non-energetic work - soul mirror, autosuggestion, magical food & breath, etc.), but that's to supplement to my other training and not as a primary curriculum.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of the I Ching. It would be philosophically & thematically in line with my current spiritual practice, and it's structured enough that I don't feel like I'd be putting it together as I go along (like I would with something like elemental divination).

It also feels more "scientific" (for lack of a better term) to me, lacking the reliance on complicated symbolism and anthropomorphic archetypes that it so central to the Tarot. I even have a book with detailed instructions on performing a reading - I'd just have to order the stalks.
They probably still wouldn't take me seriously, but at least I could hit them over the head when I need to. [tongue]
Well if they don't take you seriously before being hit on the head, they should take you seriously after...
One of arts I practice is Spa, one of the Seidr Arts (at least, that's how I categorize it), because I have a bit of talent as a Seer. Instead of consulting an Oracle, I am the Oracle. I sit down, go into Trance, and look around. What I see are Threads, and there are different kinds of Threads. Mostly, and Spatially, there are a lot of Threads that connect people and things together according to various relationships and energy exchanges. When you zoom out, the Threads blend together into larger Threads - different neighborhoods are connected together, and their different Threads show their relationships. Towns are a bigger Thread, and States, and Nations, and so on. These Threads are what is generally broken during the "Cord Cutting" spell.

Besides being connected together Spatially, the Threads are also connected together Temporally. Because of the way the "ethers" (for lack of a better term) work, people and things tend to leave both Spatial and Temporal marks with every step and action they take. It's easier for most to See the Spatial Threads because they are all around, but once you learn to step into the Temporal Stream, they are there too. There is where it's easier for me to See all of the Threads connected together in a Temporal way, because I just zoom out more - it becomes like a big web that is constantly changing as new threads form. By following the "Temporal Trail" of the the Threads already made (by Scrying the Past), I can see the patterns that are already formed - the habits a person or community has established, the actions that led to those habits, how strong or weak they are, what their strengths and weaknesses are. By knowing the nature of a person or an environment, by knowing the patterns of what is becoming, one can generally deduce from that what may be. From there, once I follow the Thread up to the "present" existence of it, the solid Thread ends. What comes after looks, to me, like a fork in the road with many transparent Threads, some larger than others. The larger ones represent Probability, while the smaller ones represent Possibility. I can technically go down and look at all of these Threads, though I usually just look at the biggest Probabilities, or maybe check to see if a better Possibility can be changed into a Probability. However, ultimately, looking at any of those transparent Threads is little more than Daydreaming if I do not make proper use of them or if the owner of the Thread I am looking at changes their mind, because the future does not exist.

Then once I learn what I need, I come back to me and end the meditation. I don't always need to do all this to learn things, though, perhaps because I already did so much of it or perhaps because of a simple natural talent. Sometimes, somebody will simply say something about something they want or some decision, and I'll be hit with a deja vu-ish flash of vision and simply know the exact outcome of what they are talking about. Not that they ever listen until it's too late. Sigh.

Anyway, besides being a means of Divination, these Threads are also an important part of my Spellcraft. Since I can see all of the "future" paths that a Thread made take, all I have to do is pick one, and then as long as I have the juju I can empower that one Probability or Possibility until it is the "Most Probable." Then, I just have to wait for the person I spelled (even if it's me) and the people around them to make the series of decisions and actions that lead up to that particular outcome.

That's really interesting, thanks. Is this something you were taught, or a technique you developed based on your Northern paradigm and your own experimentation?

In the spirit of the thread, would you be willing to give any specific examples of what you discussed in the bolded section? I'm especially curious if there have ever been times where you've managed to divert a specific course of events through this practice.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

- DDJ, Verse 27

"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett

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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by Shinichi »

Rin wrote:
There are many Oracles you can use besides the Tarot, and even at that, many versions of the Tarot. I've recently ordered the Wildwood Tarot, which should be arriving in the mail this week. I feel like the Mysteries in those cards should be more in line with my path than those of the conventional Tarot, so I may resonate with it more both as a Divination and as an Initiation tool. We'll see.
You should post about your results with the new deck, if you have the time. It would be interesting to see if the differing art and the compatibility between your own path and the design of the cards influences the outcome. I googled the deck and the art I could see is brilliant stuff.
I just got it the day I made that post, and I'm still getting used to it. This is technically the first Tarot I've ever owned, and certainly the first I've taken seriously, so I'm still getting used to some of the finer points. :P I am definitely enjoying it though, and brilliant is a good word for it. I don't know that the compatibility influences that outcome itself, but I most certainly feel a much stronger connection to the things shown and what they mean.
Rin wrote: The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of the I Ching. It would be philosophically & thematically in line with my current spiritual practice, and it's structured enough that I don't feel like I'd be putting it together as I go along (like I would with something like elemental divination).

It also feels more "scientific" (for lack of a better term) to me, lacking the reliance on complicated symbolism and anthropomorphic archetypes that it so central to the Tarot. I even have a book with detailed instructions on performing a reading - I'd just have to order the stalks.
You can use coins if you don't have stalks.

The I Ching, The Book of Changes, will teach you the art of reading patterns. Just as I read the patterns of the Threads I talked about, except you will study 64 forces that act upon the Threads, and through that you will understand the direction the Threads will go. It is certainly a powerful system - once you are initiated into its mysteries, you'll eventually not even need to throw the stalks or coins to see the way the forces are moving in nature, and you can also learn how to exert your own influence upon those forces and effectively practice Magick via the I Ching. Most Daoists wouldn't do that as far as I know, but, well, we're not Daoists. [thumbup]
Rin wrote:
They probably still wouldn't take me seriously, but at least I could hit them over the head when I need to. [tongue]
Well if they don't take you seriously before being hit on the head, they should take you seriously after...
You would think.

Rin wrote: That's really interesting, thanks. Is this something you were taught, or a technique you developed based on your Northern paradigm and your own experimentation?
The methodology I described is my own, as I told LoneWolf in a previous post. Spa, however, is very much Old Norse. There is a story in the Eddas, one of the few stories we have of a Seidkona, where the lady comes to a farm to do divination for the people who live there. She is treated quite well, and as part of process, she ate a hearts of each kind of animal raised on the farm before sleeping there for a night. The next day, she had one of the local girls sing an old song to appease the spirits, who were very happy to hear the song sung so well, and they all came to the Seidkona and told her the answers to all the questions the people on the farm asked.

That was her Spa, though. Most contemporary Spamenn and Spakona that I've heard of all have slightly different methods. Some have dreams and visions, some are simply Clairvoyant, some speak to the spirits like the Seidkona in the Eddas, and I'm sure there are those who See the Threads of Wyrd, weaved so carefully by The Sisters, just as I do. I haven't met them, but I do sincerely doubt that this is uniquely mine in the whole of the history of the world. [grin]

I do know that one system of Psionics does something slightly similar, where they practice Scanning on the future, but most of them don't get the vision of it that I do. Psionics in general is a lot less...esoteric, lol.
Rin wrote:In the spirit of the thread, would you be willing to give any specific examples of what you discussed in the bolded section? I'm especially curious if there have ever been times where you've managed to divert a specific course of events through this practice.
There is a situation quite recent, and still going on, where a friend of mine occasionally talks about the happy future she envisions with her fiance. The kids they'll have together, getting a house eventually, raising their dogs together. When she does this and I turn my Awareness to her to listen, sometimes there is an instant of psychic resonance, which is also how my Telepathy works when I'm not actively doing it - we simply get on the same frequency for a moment, and I don't intend to. The first time this happened I very clearly saw the Thread that she hopes for, and I also saw behind it the Thread that is most likely to actually happen. Every time this has happened since, the Thread that appears to me is something very different from what she envisions herself. I don't always see the same things, because so much is fluctuating, but... Suffice to say, her relationship is not going to go as well as she hopes. She's been warned about him plenty, and she knows quite well what he's like herself, but love can make very smart people become very foolish. All I can do at this point is try to keep her safe while things play out. Knowing the future is not usually pleasant, and being Wise is often not easy.

There have been a few times when I've controlled things, and sometimes just offering advice or a suggestion is more than enough. The Butterfly Effect, and all that. However, some people don't take advice too well. :P Also, the Threads are an important part of my Spellcraft, as I said in a previous post.



~:Shin:~

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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by lovebugg305 »

I have never personally messed with tarots, but study patterns!

Basically, man is able to predict "know" the future of the stars and planets by having studied there patterns for hundreds of years. Now astrologers can tell where a star or planet has been and will be anywhere in time.

Another example, if I knew your pattern: when you left your home in the morning, went to lunch, got home and went to bed everyday. Id say, knowing your pattern that I will be able to know what your doing and where you will be in the future at any given time.

Like wise, Nostradamus, had to do calculations after he discovered certain patterns in his divination methods he used, and he made some"pretty accurate" predictions.

Am assuming all divination is based on the patterns as well.

Now, how the tarots patterns are used is what you have to learn and figure out

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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by Rin »

I just got it the day I made that post, and I'm still getting used to it. This is technically the first Tarot I've ever owned, and certainly the first I've taken seriously, so I'm still getting used to some of the finer points. :P I am definitely enjoying it though, and brilliant is a good word for it. I don't know that the compatibility influences that outcome itself, but I most certainly feel a much stronger connection to the things shown and what they mean.
My gut feeling is that that stronger connection would spill over into better results with readings, or at least with better interpretation (closer match between the symbols being used and your internal cosmology), but as I've said, I'm not an expert with divination. And of course if it's your first time using a Tarot deck regularly, it's hard to make a comparison.
You can use coins if you don't have stalks.
True, but I've read, from sources I find generally reliable, that the stalks yield better results.
The I Ching, The Book of Changes, will teach you the art of reading patterns. Just as I read the patterns of the Threads I talked about, except you will study 64 forces that act upon the Threads, and through that you will understand the direction the Threads will go. It is certainly a powerful system - once you are initiated into its mysteries, you'll eventually not even need to throw the stalks or coins to see the way the forces are moving in nature, and you can also learn how to exert your own influence upon those forces and effectively practice Magick via the I Ching. Most Daoists wouldn't do that as far as I know, but, well, we're not Daoists. [thumbup]
You'd think so, but the more I delve into Daoism the less I make presumptions about what Daoists would and wouldn't do :p

I personally don't see how cultivating the ability to read and interact with energetic currents to manipulate reality is any more out of line with Daoist philosophy than, say, cultivating the ability to emit your Qi through a physical blow in such a way as to kill a person with a single strike. And there are already rich lineages of Daoist magic, as I think we discussed at some point - or at least magic practiced by Daoists or in the context of Daoist cosmology.
The methodology I described is my own, as I told LoneWolf in a previous post. Spa, however, is very much Old Norse. There is a story in the Eddas, one of the few stories we have of a Seidkona, where the lady comes to a farm to do divination for the people who live there. She is treated quite well, and as part of process, she ate a hearts of each kind of animal raised on the farm before sleeping there for a night. The next day, she had one of the local girls sing an old song to appease the spirits, who were very happy to hear the song sung so well, and they all came to the Seidkona and told her the answers to all the questions the people on the farm asked.

That was her Spa, though. Most contemporary Spamenn and Spakona that I've heard of all have slightly different methods. Some have dreams and visions, some are simply Clairvoyant, some speak to the spirits like the Seidkona in the Eddas, and I'm sure there are those who See the Threads of Wyrd, weaved so carefully by The Sisters, just as I do. I haven't met them, but I do sincerely doubt that this is uniquely mine in the whole of the history of the world. [grin]

I do know that one system of Psionics does something slightly similar, where they practice Scanning on the future, but most of them don't get the vision of it that I do. Psionics in general is a lot less...esoteric, lol.
That's really interesting. Also a tad Game of Thrones-esque :p But I suppose that's how they rolled back then - you asked, you made the appropriate offering, and if it was acceptable, you received.

The part about singing reminded me distinctly of:

https://youtu.be/KvtT3UyhibQ

As for Psionics, well, that particular train slid off the tracks a while ago. I suspect they're not seeing visions for the same reason they're not moving objects or readings minds - confusing the attempt to do a thing with the training required to do a thing.
There is a situation quite recent, and still going on, where a friend of mine occasionally talks about the happy future she envisions with her fiance. The kids they'll have together, getting a house eventually, raising their dogs together. When she does this and I turn my Awareness to her to listen, sometimes there is an instant of psychic resonance, which is also how my Telepathy works when I'm not actively doing it - we simply get on the same frequency for a moment, and I don't intend to. The first time this happened I very clearly saw the Thread that she hopes for, and I also saw behind it the Thread that is most likely to actually happen. Every time this has happened since, the Thread that appears to me is something very different from what she envisions herself. I don't always see the same things, because so much is fluctuating, but... Suffice to say, her relationship is not going to go as well as she hopes. She's been warned about him plenty, and she knows quite well what he's like herself, but love can make very smart people become very foolish. All I can do at this point is try to keep her safe while things play out. Knowing the future is not usually pleasant, and being Wise is often not easy.

There have been a few times when I've controlled things, and sometimes just offering advice or a suggestion is more than enough. The Butterfly Effect, and all that. However, some people don't take advice too well. :P Also, the Threads are an important part of my Spellcraft, as I said in a previous post.



~:Shin:~
In those situations no, people don't take advice well :p Such is life I guess.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

- DDJ, Verse 27

"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett

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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by Shinichi »

Rin wrote: My gut feeling is that that stronger connection would spill over into better results with readings, or at least with better interpretation (closer match between the symbols being used and your internal cosmology), but as I've said, I'm not an expert with divination. And of course if it's your first time using a Tarot deck regularly, it's hard to make a comparison.
Fair points, but also yes: as a first time regular Tarot reader, I have little to measure against. [tongue] Even with my Rune Magick, I generally use the Runes more for Spellcraft and such than Divination.
Rin wrote: You'd think so, but the more I delve into Daoism the less I make presumptions about what Daoists would and wouldn't do :p
Indeed.

Have you read any Xianxia? They are, practically speaking, "Chinese Fantasy" stories, usually about the Immortals (Xian). There are some great stories being translated on Wuxia World- some completed already (Coiling Dragon and Stellar Transformations were among my favorites of those, but I haven't read them all) as well as those still being written and translated.

The reason I ask is because most of the immortal characters in those stories are Daoists, and they most certainly do not have any issues plotting against, scamming, and killing each other. In fact, the "law of the jungle" nature of the Immortal World is one of the earliest and harshest lessons many of the main characters have to face in their path of cultivation.
Rin wrote: That's really interesting. Also a tad Game of Thrones-esque :p But I suppose that's how they rolled back then - you asked, you made the appropriate offering, and if it was acceptable, you received.
Indeed. That is one of the main differences between the Shamanistic Pre-Christian Traditions and the Abrahamic influenced traditions of Magick - rather than dominating the spirits, we approach them with respect. Barter and Trade works just fine, and when you have Allies and Friends, that is even better.

As a military General once said, "if your men fear you, they will fight for you; but if they love you, they will die for you."
Rin wrote: The part about singing reminded me distinctly of:

https://youtu.be/KvtT3UyhibQ
Yes, I'm pretty sure it's something right along those lines, though we don't actually know exactly which song was used. The the only record of that story doesn't say, and if there was a version of the story that mentioned it, we've lost it to the sands of time.
Rin wrote: As for Psionics, well, that particular train slid off the tracks a while ago. I suspect they're not seeing visions for the same reason they're not moving objects or readings minds - confusing the attempt to do a thing with the training required to do a thing.
Oh, there are a few good Psions. The system I was referring to is Dynamic Psi, created by Kobok of Veritas. It is the most complete system of Psionics I have ever studied or practiced, even counting the system if Psi I developed for my own purposes back in the day. One of Kobok's students discusses what they call Future Selection in his article, Priming Your Practice and Life Through Future Selection. This is essentially the same thing that I do when I use my Spellcraft to empower a particular future Thread that I want to come into being, and Future Selection is actually one of the things that helped me figure out the exact mechanics of doing that type of Work.



~:Shin:~

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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by Rin »

Indeed.

Have you read any Xianxia? They are, practically speaking, "Chinese Fantasy" stories, usually about the Immortals (Xian). There are some great stories being translated on Wuxia World- some completed already (Coiling Dragon and Stellar Transformations were among my favorites of those, but I haven't read them all) as well as those still being written and translated.

The reason I ask is because most of the immortal characters in those stories are Daoists, and they most certainly do not have any issues plotting against, scamming, and killing each other. In fact, the "law of the jungle" nature of the Immortal World is one of the earliest and harshest lessons many of the main characters have to face in their path of cultivation.
I haven't, but it looks interesting, I'll check it out for sure.

And yeah the issue of transferring what we consider "morality" in a classical Western context into a Daoist context seems like a tricky one, especially because "Daoism" is such a diverse umbrella title (Daoist philosophy? Daoist religion? Internal cultivation based on Daoist cosmology and principles? etc etc), with so many branches and schools, all with varying degrees of influence by other philosophical systems.

To me (a rank amateur, it bears repeating), it feels that Daoism in it's more "original" forms isn't a religion or a moral code, but more a kind of applied philosophy (arguably, a metaphysical science, or at least a proto-science). Even the "original" Daoist sources (Laozi/Zhuangzi/Liezi) aren't very focused on passing down moral strictures in the "10 Commandments" sense. The moral element seems like something which flows outwards naturally when one cultivates the proper internal state. Perhaps this reflects a difference in perspective - certainly a difference in mindset and cultural setting.
Yes, I'm pretty sure it's something right along those lines, though we don't actually know exactly which song was used. The the only record of that story doesn't say, and if there was a version of the story that mentioned it, we've lost it to the sands of time.
Is it specified that a particular song is required? Perhaps the spirits would be just as happy if someone rocked out on a guitar, as long as they did it well and with sincerity.
Oh, there are a few good Psions. The system I was referring to is Dynamic Psi, created by Kobok of Veritas. It is the most complete system of Psionics I have ever studied or practiced, even counting the system if Psi I developed for my own purposes back in the day. One of Kobok's students discusses what they call Future Selection in his article, Priming Your Practice and Life Through Future Selection. This is essentially the same thing that I do when I use my Spellcraft to empower a particular future Thread that I want to come into being, and Future Selection is actually one of the things that helped me figure out the exact mechanics of doing that type of Work.



~:Shin:~
Yeah I've read Kobok's stuff, and he seems a little more cognizant of the issues at hand than most other psionics practitioners, but even that feels a lot like reinventing the wheel - it beats a cart with no wheels, sure, but it still seems a little pointless :p And there were a lot of people in carts with no wheels in that community, and watching them whip away at their metaphorical horses wondering why they weren't moving forward kinda sucked.

Not to try knock on anyone, I used to speak to some of the psionics people, most of them were cool guys and were sincere about what they were doing, but I suspect that if you did a followup you'd find that very few of them are still sitting around spinning paper wheels, you know?

For what it's worth, there was a time when I experimented with some of their methodologies on top of other training, and I found them helpful in laying a basic foundation and scraping away a few of the layers of doubt which come with exploring metaphysical stuff after a lifetime of "education" into Western Materialist Reductionism. There's nothing quite like actually repeatedly performing telekinesis to finally drill it into your head that you aren't wasting your time with wishful thinking, and it also helped me really establish a deeper understanding of how to handle and direct energy.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

- DDJ, Verse 27

"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett

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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by Shinichi »

Rin wrote:And yeah the issue of transferring what we consider "morality" in a classical Western context into a Daoist context seems like a tricky one, especially because "Daoism" is such a diverse umbrella title (Daoist philosophy? Daoist religion? Internal cultivation based on Daoist cosmology and principles? etc etc), with so many branches and schools, all with varying degrees of influence by other philosophical systems.

To me (a rank amateur, it bears repeating), it feels that Daoism in it's more "original" forms isn't a religion or a moral code, but more a kind of applied philosophy (arguably, a metaphysical science, or at least a proto-science). Even the "original" Daoist sources (Laozi/Zhuangzi/Liezi) aren't very focused on passing down moral strictures in the "10 Commandments" sense. The moral element seems like something which flows outwards naturally when one cultivates the proper internal state. Perhaps this reflects a difference in perspective - certainly a difference in mindset and cultural setting.
A recent text I bought as a gift for someone interested in learning about The Dao is a relatively recent translation of the oldest known version of the Dao De Jing, along with all the texts found right beside that Dao De Jing. It's called The Complete Dao De Jing with the Four Cannons of The Yellow Emperor, translated by Jean Levi. I didn't read through it entirely myself, just a scan to make sure it's a decent work, but I recall there being a section on being a noble and good person and such.

However, the Daoist version of being a good person reminds me more of the old Norse Pagan ideals. The old stories are full of fighting, killing, plotting, tricking, raping and stealing - but as long as one has Honor, as long as one is true to their own nature and what Crowley called the True Will, then it's all fine. In the Xianxia stories I read, they call it the Dao Heart (or translate it like that, anyway): the stronger and more stable your heart and the greater your fortitude, the further you can go in the path of cultivation. But if your heart is unstable, if you have a "heart devil" (something that stabs at your conscience, usually something of dishonor like cowardice, or a deep regret), then you'll not go very far or suffer great consequences if you try to. There have even been characters who became so emotional (usually furious) that they lost control of all the power they spent so long cultivating, and effectively exploded. [razz]

So yeah. Morality does not apply. It's best, especially within the Daoist Way, to consider the order of nature. Nature is not moral, but there is a certain order to it, and especially as a Daoist it is important to understand and become part of that natural order.
Rin wrote:
Yes, I'm pretty sure it's something right along those lines, though we don't actually know exactly which song was used. The the only record of that story doesn't say, and if there was a version of the story that mentioned it, we've lost it to the sands of time.
Is it specified that a particular song is required? Perhaps the spirits would be just as happy if someone rocked out on a guitar, as long as they did it well and with sincerity.
Yes, a particular song is asked for. That's even one of the more interesting parts of the story, because the only one in the community who knows that old song is a Christian girl who learned it from one of the elder women in her family when she was younger, and she does not want to sing it because it's pagan and she doesn't want to participate in all the pagan stuff. They had to convince her to sing it for them.
Rin wrote: Yeah I've read Kobok's stuff, and he seems a little more cognizant of the issues at hand than most other psionics practitioners, but even that feels a lot like reinventing the wheel - it beats a cart with no wheels, sure, but it still seems a little pointless :p And there were a lot of people in carts with no wheels in that community, and watching them whip away at their metaphorical horses wondering why they weren't moving forward kinda sucked.

Not to try knock on anyone, I used to speak to some of the psionics people, most of them were cool guys and were sincere about what they were doing, but I suspect that if you did a followup you'd find that very few of them are still sitting around spinning paper wheels, you know?

For what it's worth, there was a time when I experimented with some of their methodologies on top of other training, and I found them helpful in laying a basic foundation and scraping away a few of the layers of doubt which come with exploring metaphysical stuff after a lifetime of "education" into Western Materialist Reductionism. There's nothing quite like actually repeatedly performing telekinesis to finally drill it into your head that you aren't wasting your time with wishful thinking, and it also helped me really establish a deeper understanding of how to handle and direct energy.
Hah. Yeah. The reason I don't necessarily practice Psi anymore as its own practice is precisely because the entirety of Psionics exists within the paradigm of Magick that I train in, but there is a whole lot more, too. Still, those studies were an important part of my development. Kobok's work especially, because learning the mechanics of Kinesis and Scanning the way he taught them (as well as some of his more relevant applications, like Future Selection and Construct Dynamics) gave me the insights that I needed to do that work, and several other things besides. I have no doubt that I wouldn't quite be as far along as I am without Kobok's influence, as well as a couple of others who work in that field of practice.



~:Shin:~

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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by landing »

Shinichi wrote: te]

There is a situation quite recent, and still going on, where a friend of mine occasionally talks about the happy future she envisions with her fiance. The kids they'll have together, getting a house eventually, raising their dogs together. When she does this and I turn my Awareness to her to listen, sometimes there is an instant of psychic resonance, which is also how my Telepathy works when I'm not actively doing it - we simply get on the same frequency for a moment, and I don't intend to. The first time this happened I very clearly saw the Thread that she hopes for, and I also saw behind it the Thread that is most likely to actually happen. Every time this has happened since, the Thread that appears to me is something very different from what she envisions herself. I don't always see the same things, because so much is fluctuating, but... Suffice to say, her relationship is not going to go as well as she hopes. She's been warned about him plenty, and she knows quite well what he's like herself, but love can make very smart people become very foolish. All I can do at this point is try to keep her safe while things play out. Knowing the future is not usually pleasant, and being Wise is often not easy.





~:Shin:~
are your friend able to see the threads/signs in mind eye too when u tried to warn her?
if she can see,she will believe,i think.....
but sometimes she loves too deep,she wont get her direction back,so if she asks u to cast a spell to change the future,is it possible?
which means to turn the future disaster into blessing?

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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by Shinichi »

landing wrote: are your friend able to see the threads/signs in mind eye too when u tried to warn her?
if she can see,she will believe,i think.....
but sometimes she loves too deep,she wont get her direction back,so if she asks u to cast a spell to change the future,is it possible?
which means to turn the future disaster into blessing?
She doesn't see exactly what I do, but the universe has given her plenty of fair warning. She's had divinations that she's ignored, plenty of dreams, pretty much everyone that cares about her has talked to her about the issue, and most recently her dog got ahold of her Tarot deck. The only card permanently damaged was the 7 of Cups.

Willful ignorance is powerful juju. She has made her choice, and though I and others wish she had chosen different, the fate that awaits her is no one's responsibility but hers. All I can do is hope she makes it through in one piece.



~:Shin:~

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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by Cerber »

I don't think there is much you can or should do in these situations. From my experience, if his/her mind is set to take a deep dive the only thing I can do is to stay close for that day when he/she will actually want a helping hand to get up. Trying to push your "truth" upon a friend might result in you losing a friend and him/her being left to suffer alone without having anyone to turn to when thing gets rough
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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by landing »

Shinichi wrote:
She doesn't see exactly what I do, but the universe has given her plenty of fair warning. She's had divinations that she's ignored, plenty of dreams, pretty much everyone that cares about her has talked to her about the issue, and most recently her dog got ahold of her Tarot deck. The only card permanently damaged was the 7 of Cups.

Willful ignorance is powerful juju. She has made her choice, and though I and others wish she had chosen different, the fate that awaits her is no one's responsibility but hers. All I can do is hope she makes it through in one piece.



~:Shin:~
She got some warnings, but it seems not strong enough to catch her real attention or awakening, ...if she is a woman aligned with her guardian angel , i feel they will still keep doing the job on her,until she learn it ? or maybe this future event even one lesson for her journey that she needs it?
another question is, divination sees the future, but the universe is not totally fixed, is there a strong magick such as the british magician Merlin whom can make a reverse of the future event?

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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by Shinichi »

landing wrote:She got some warnings, but it seems not strong enough to catch her real attention or awakening,
It's not that she is weak, she is simply in denial. She herself knows what he is, but she has decided that she is going to have a life with him, and she is too stubborn to change her mind until he does something bad enough that she has no choice in the matter.
landing wrote:...if she is a woman aligned with her guardian angel , i feel they will still keep doing the job on her,until she learn it ?
The Holy Guardian Angel is not a "guardian" in the sense of "protector." What it protects is not you, but your True Self and the karma that decides your fate. The HGA governs your fate and administers your karma to ensure that you get the experience you need in order to grow. Indeed, at times, the HGA is your worst enemy, because often the most growth-inducing experiences are the most miserable ones. This is only resolved through initiation and spiritual evolution, until you reach a status where you can stand on equal footing with your HGA and receive its respect and attention accordingly, or even grow beyond it to reach the stage where you can govern your own fate. Easier said than done, but simple enough in principle. Initiation is a long path with almost endless heights.
landing wrote:or maybe this future event even one lesson for her journey that she needs it?
That is precisely the problem. She has mistaken a life lesson for a life mate, and she will be stuck until she gets the message and grows past it. Unfortunately, there are times in life where it isn't enough to hear the message, and it must be experienced. I'm afraid that this is one of those events in her life.
landing wrote: another question is, divination sees the future, but the universe is not totally fixed, is there a strong magick such as the british magician Merlin whom can make a reverse of the future event?
The future is easy to change. Even now, if I ignore all the instruction I've been given on this matter through divination, ritual, and other communications, I could put my foot down and swing some big enough juju to change the fate she has chosen for herself. However, such work comes at a cost, and that is precisely why I have been instructed to let fate run its course. Not only would it cost me a great deal, but it would also cost her this opportunity for growth.

This is why I said that being a Seer is not pleasant. Knowing things sometimes allows the opportunity to alter the course of fate, but it also means you have to simply watch and endure all of the events that you're not allowed to change.



~:Shin:~

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Nahemah
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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by Nahemah »

Ah. My advice?

Let go. Freeform, relax. Lose the ceremonial and connect to the emotional, you are a sharp magickian, but caught up in the form and the function. Let it ride, breathe and have some fun with it.

Takes time, but it's fun. [geek2]
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landing
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Re: Is anyone achieving "practical" results from divination?

Post by landing »

Shinichi wrote:

This is why I said that being a Seer is not pleasant. Knowing things sometimes allows the opportunity to alter the course of fate, but it also means you have to simply watch and endure all of the events that you're not allowed to change.



~:Shin:~
This is what troubles me, too, i m studying occult for helping saving the people i care and love.... but most of them wont listen anything, they go their own direction even if their gut feeling tells its wrong, and i m not powerful enough to influence them in a deeper level.
so, maybe finally what we need to learn is to TRUST in the LOVE OF UNIVERSE?
universe loves everyone in a long term plan......?

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