Entheogens in cerimonial, magical, ritual and spiritual use

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Original post: martin

Sud Ram
06-12-2004, 08:15 AM

This thread was last dealing with Ayahuasca and how frotish_mewn was about to experiment a journey. I hope he'll update us on his experience

Please keep this discussion focused on the serious USE and PRACTISE of entheogen related work and not on your opinion of it being good or bad or pro or against.

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Original post: martin

frotish_mewn
06-12-2004, 04:48 PM

Attempt 1: It was unpleasant and mostly uneventful. Sunday I took too much syrian rue. I was going to let 45 minutes go by before drinking the mimosa hostilis brew. By then I was seeing slight trails and hearing/feeling a buzzing along with some nausea. When I got up to get the brew I was staggering a little. My body told me to just sleep it off, which was very good advice. Just being near the brew was unbearable.

Attempt 2: Tuesday night I took a good amount of the syrian rue and drank the brew, which is a challenge of it's own. I felt a little change before it came time to throw up (purging and ayahuasca go hand in hand). Afterwards I was almost down to a normal base, and that's where I stayed. It wasn't all negative, though. I spent some time outside (night-time). I did a little energy work, and some thinking. In the last few years I've strayed away from my shamanic leanings and I thought about this a while. I don't know why as it's at the core of my being. Healing, plants, a deep connection with Nature and the Universe: these all are very important to me. Though not the experience I was looking for, a lot of good did come out from this. But this plant combination is not for me. I don't even want to try again with the last of my m. hostilis.

I think I'm best sticking to psilocybe mushrooms (which I haven't eaten in about 5 years). When I use them I feel like I'm home. I'm both forward and backward in time and evolution. I'm not quite sure how to describe it, but I sense a way to return to primal ways, but in a more evolved framework, not simply going backwards. Somewhat of a solve et coagula on an evolutionary scale.

I'm very curious to learn how you (and others) experience the energies of different plants, Sud Ram.

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Original post: martin

Sud Ram
06-13-2004, 04:50 AM
Well I warned you that Ayahuasca was delicate... The preparation in itself is a whole ritual. The vegetalistas only pick the plants on certain moons and when they have spoken to the right animals etc...

I'll speak about my experience with mushrooms and especially the combination with morning glory when I have more time.

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Original post: martin

Yazan
06-13-2004, 11:14 PM

It seems like there is a general feeling that P. Harmala is not the best Ayahuasca MAOI. P. Harmala contains mostly Harmaline, while B. Caapi (originally used in Ayahuasca) contais mostly Harmine. Also, P. Harmala contains many Isoquinolines that seem to have a psychoactive (and nauseating) effect on their own.

Why don't you try brewing Ayahuasca out of P. Viridis and B. Caapi?

I am aware of potential availability problems, though.
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Original post: martin

frotish_mewn
06-13-2004, 11:40 PM
I've used P. Harmala a few times before and never experienced nausea. I had an especially transformational experience with P. Harmala and Psilocybe mushrooms.

Why don't you try brewing Ayahuasca out of P. Viridis and B. Caapi?
I was thinking that this may be the only way I try it again. Availability is not a problem, but I think I might always have a preference for the Psilocybes. Besides, I'm thinking that this may also not be the right time for journeys of this type. I need a more private setting so I can have a better atmosphere to work in.

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Original post: martin

Yazan
06-14-2004, 07:47 AM

Of course, just because DMT has so much hype doesn't mean it is a perfect entheogen for everyone.

I guess you, like me, will simply not tolerate purgative effects. Many people say it is part of the experiece but I just don't buy it, lol. In any case I am keeping Ayahuasca, along with Mescaline and Ibogaine, untill I am older when they might have something to teach me. Especially Mescaline.

Youmay be interested in the idea that some tribes used Burgmansia in their Ayahuasca brew. Since Brugmansia contains Scopolamine, it is reasonable to say that those people did not suffer nausea. Perhaps a tiny ammount of a scopolamine-containing plant would help?

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Original post: martin

Horus
06-14-2004, 12:47 PM

P. Harmala and I have NEVER gotten along well. I am thinking it was due to not observing dietary restrictions the last 24-48 hours, twelve just didn't do it for me. I got an extreme case of hypertension that lasted an entire night, I thought I was going to die, lol. I have had good luck with B. Caapi, but I have never had a true breakthrough experience with ayahuasca at all. However, since this is not just an Ayahuasca thread I can say I've had good luck with a chemical known as 2C-I. I have not used it in a ceremonial sense, though I am pretty sure this one would probably work well in that type of scenario. She never stops going till she slows down, but she comes in waves and pulses - particularly when potentiated with a small small dose of cannabis. If you are not careful she may put you under the rod, but if you show her you can exercise a bit of control you will see what I mean . Very good for energy work too.

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Original post: martin

Yazan
06-14-2004, 07:19 PM
2C-I does indeed come and go in waves... more so than any other psychedelic that I have tried. I find 2C-I of very little spiritual use, though it is definitely one of the best psychedelics for introspection. It also allows me to connect to a certain part of my psyche like no other psychedelic does.

For spiritual work, though I have never tried Psilocybin, I found DPT (N,N-Dipropyltryptamine) to be excellent for divine trancework (and in fact, it has gained a popularity for such use), and 2C-C (4-Chloro-2,5-Dimethoxyphenethylamine) for meditation and chakra work. The reason?

DPT seems to premate the soul with a purifying fire. If one is in proper mindset, one will dissolve into thedivine 'ocean of milk.'

As for 2C-C, this is very unique since it leaves you quite sober and yet it subtly alters the consiousness in such a dramatic way (i know its a paradox but thats the best I can explain it).

I really don't care that these are synthetics. Just as Psilocebe musrooms can synthesize Psilocybin and Caffea Arabicae can synthesize caffien, so can Homo Sapiens synthesize DPTand 2C-C .

Moved to more apropriate forum

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Original post: martin

Horus
06-14-2004, 11:31 PM
I will look into those once I begin work with entheogenic substances again Yazan (which may be a while I think). I like the descriptions... maybe they will have a similar effect with me.

[edit] Question (feel free to respond PM if you want) - what route of ingestion do you take with the DPT?

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Original post: martin

frotish_mewn
06-15-2004, 01:51 AM

Youmay be interested in the idea that some tribes used Burgmansia in their Ayahuasca brew. Since Brugmansia contains Scopolamine, it is reasonable to say that those people did not suffer nausea. Perhaps a tiny ammount of a scopolamine-containing plant would help?
I have a Datura Inoxia growing, but I don't think I'll be using it. I've ingested Datura before, and even though a small amount wouldn't do the same thing, I don't know if I'll ingest it again. Datura is a plant I'd like to connect to on a non-physical level. I might change my mind if I could learn how to use it in a medicinal dose properly. Thanks for the suggestion, though. It's got me rethinking my stance on Datura use.

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Original post: martin

Sud Ram
06-15-2004, 08:55 AM
I'm sorry to disagree with the moving of this thread. It is about shamanic work and belongs in the shamanistic practises forum.

About my mushroom and morning glory seed mix:

I was in nature at a psytrance party, definitely not the best place for deep shamanic work. So I absented myself from the party and went into the woods. It was a full moon night and the peak of my experience was what I understand to have been a dimensional tuning. Somehow at a certain moment in time, something made "click". At that exact moment, I heard and saw many people laughing out together for no special reason, dogs started to bark, car alarms started to beep.

A fascinating moment of deep connection with the Universe. I myself was peeing at the moment all of this happened so it was a true energetical release also. Later on the dancefloor I entered a deep state of freedom where I danced and inside I was flying. A moment of connection with my totem, the eagle, allowed me to go beyond the limitations of the "crowd".

This is one of the experiences with this mix.

Another deeper one happened on the total moon eclipse of May 2003. On the beach with my girlfriend only. We decided to do a ceremony for our mutual connection. The night was cloudy and I had driven a few hours from Lisbon to the south of Portugal and was still optimistic that the sky would open. As we arrived at the beach and set up a minimum of comfort for the night, we ingested the mushrooms first and the morning glory seeds straight after (I don't remember the quantities but I don't need much fuel).

Half an hour later and 15 minutes before the eclipse would start, the curtains opened just like in the theatre. Clouds separating from both sides opening an incredible view of the spectacular show offered by the Universe. We spent the night mostly in silence and working a lot on energetical blocks and releasing through shamanic exercises and dances. It was freezing cold but I still ended up running naked up and down the beach celebrating Spirit and connecting to the elements for a few hours.

These would be the most significant experiences with the mushroom/morning glory mix. I have had others but with less insight due to less quantities.

xx

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Original post: martin

Xeper-i-Set
06-16-2004, 06:08 PM
My favorite entheogen by far is DXM. I've had many life-changing experiences with it, and think that for Initiatory magic, it far exceeds any other entheogen in usefulness, realizations, and intensity of experience.

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Original post: martin

strangeDivine
06-17-2004, 01:05 AM

I'm considering using salvia divinorum. Has anyone tried salvia? Pretty much all of the reports I've heard about it deal with very spiritual "vision quest" type experiences. I'm interested in input from you more experienced psychonauts.

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Original post: martin

MasterVerro
06-17-2004, 01:20 AM

I too have been interested in salvia. Is it safe to use? How long do the trips last? Are the trips spiritual and worth while?

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Original post: martin

frotish_mewn
06-17-2004, 01:41 AM

In my experience, salvia is... strange. I have tried smoking it, and every time I felt myself being pulled into another dimension. My first time was my most intense. I remember seeing layers of reality flipping past me in colors like pages of a book. I felt the presence of a man and a woman, and the man was congratulating me on finally seeing reality. In shock I jumped up to see my room and a friend who was sitting for me, but felt very disoriented for a few minutes. This was with plain leaf. Extracts are way too overwhelming for me. Smoking hits within seconds and is generally over in about 5 minutes, but you may still be feeling it for up to 30 minutes later while it fades away.

I've gotten the feeling that salvia has much to teach about the nature of time and space. I plan to use it again, but only by chewing the leaf. Chewing is a longer experience with a slower buildup. That's the best way for me to truly benefit from it.

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Original post: martin

strangeDivine
06-17-2004, 01:45 AM

From what I understand, salvia is physically quite safe, chemically, but has a very powerful mental effect and the possibility always exists for injuring onself if a sitter is not present. This site has a lot of salvia accounts. http://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Salvia_divinorum.shtml

Most of the trips seem to last for a shockingly short time (10, 15 minutes) but are experienced as being much longer. Also, the content of the trips I've read about from different sources are very similar and often involve a female presence and the theme of reality collapsing to reveal a deeper essence. I'm really not sure whether I'm ready for such an experience!

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Original post: martin

Yazan
06-17-2004, 11:05 PM
I'm sorry to disagree with the moving of this thread. It is about shamanic work and belongs in the shamanistic practises forum.

Since previously we had countless topics pertaining to drugs + something else occult-related, we decided to have one forum that collects all these topics. That is why I moved it (besides, there is a link for it in the other forum)

---

Salvia... "strange" is quite appropriate!

I have tried it twice, smoked.. .though I think I neversmoked enough. My experience was a state of still, silent clarity. Very "zen"-like. Hard to decribe. Not unpleasant at all.

What is even stranger is that Salvia seems to work on the Kappa Opioid system...

---

Horus: The most pupular method of takinf DPT is intranasally (snorting). But since some people (like myself) need large doses for a good effect (I need around 120mg, which is HUGE for some, but I seem to have natural tolerance to it), it would be hard to snort all of this, especially that it smells... um, funny.

I would like to try IMing it someday, since everyone thinks this is the best method.

What methods do I use? I only tried it 3 times. The first time I insufflated it. The second time I took it as an enema. The third time I took half of it in an enema and the other half insufflated.

They are both almost the same, however, if you DO NOT like the powerful vibrations that this medicine produces when insufflated, then taking it rectally is the way to go, since it seems less overwhelming. Then again I find its vibrations to be part of its divine experience.

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Original post: martin

Sud Ram
06-21-2004, 01:37 PM
Yazan, your argument of drugs + occult to put everything in the same bag is just like if I would say people talk about books + occult so all the book threads in OF are made into one...

Entheogens in shamanic practise come from a different view of the use of these substances. Most of all because they are a work for deep Healing and for connecting with the Earth, the Spirits and with the Universe. Not just for the experience of the divine or for magic.

Also, and this has been pointed out before, entheogens are by definition PLANTS so chemicals shouldn't be included in the discussion

from http://deoxy.org/define/entheogen
Entheogen

nov. verb.â?? Plant sacrament (http://deoxy.org/define/sacrament)s or shamanic inebriants evoking religious ecstasy (http://deoxy.org/define/ecstasy) or vision; commonly used in the archaic world in divination for shamanic healing, and in Holy Communion (http://deoxy.org/define/Communion), for example during the Initiation to the Eleusinian Mysteries (http://deoxy.org/define/Eleusinian+Mysteries) or the Vedic Soma (http://deoxy.org/soma.htm) sacrifice. Literally: becoming divine within. Hence: Age of Entheogens nov. verb., Entheogenic nov. verb.

Regarding the use of Salvia:

My experience is with smoking the dried leaves. I waited for a full moon night and asked for an answer to a question that was buzzing in my mind. The traditional use of Salvia is for this kind of work and for divination more than for deep healing or connections.

I rolled it up in joint form and after the first two the only thing I could feel was an uncomfortable tingling all over my skin. I rolled up some more and after a total of five big fat joints nothing was happening so I thought that I wasn't meant to have the answer and went to bed.

As I was about to fall asleep, the Plant started to work on me and took for a dive into some kind of wormhole where I travelled at incredible speed through different kinds of rooms stopping by to see the symbols and visions that were subtely answering my question.

I'm not quite sure when or how I fell asleep.

During the rest of the week, each time I went to sleep, the effects of the plant came back and took me for lighter experiences everytime. Mostly working with awareness of the moment rather than visions and symbols.

I haven't tried it again since because I have learnt that answers come in the absence of questions.

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Original post: martin

Yazan
06-21-2004, 04:57 PM

Sud Ram,

This definition of Entheogens is according to this particular article. Many other people have many different interpretation of the word "Enthogen" - I personally find DPT a billion timesmore "Entheogenic" (In the true sense of the word, as in, showing the divine within) that say Salvia. Then again the definition you picked says "Shamanic Inhebriants," which could reall mean anything that is inhebriating and can be used in a shamanic context... IMO, that could include Heroin.

As for drugs + occult, no, actually we had many threads dealing with the use of drugs with many other topics on the occult, an shamanism. Yours is no different - it deals with drugs being used as a tool for shamanism. Therefore it belongs either here or there, but sincehere is more specific, it was moved here. Besides, what does it matter so much to you? it is simply an issue of organization.

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Original post: martin

Sud Ram
06-21-2004, 05:13 PM
It just doesn't feel right to be in Astral, Trance and Psionics when the issue doesn't really have anything to do with any of those. But hey, if you organize bananas in the strawberry bag and you like it go for it!

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Original post: martin

Yazan
06-21-2004, 06:19 PM
Alright, I'll move it back .

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Original post: martin

Sud Ram
06-21-2004, 06:25 PM
you're not so bad after all.

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Original post: martin

Sud Ram
06-23-2004, 04:18 AM

I took part in a San Pedro ceremony a few days ago with the guidance of my teacher. I haven't fully understood everything that happened and it was a very powerful experience.

I know that I dived into past life experiences and entered a deep trance naked in Nature chanting strange sounds. As they came out in different frequencies I could feel my body healing and exiting darkness. The sounds however were extremely profound and came from places I didn't know existed within me. I understood that that this was a curse that came from a past life in Japan during the times of the Samurai that I was releasing through "homeopathic" sound work If you can call it that way...

After this release I came back to the circle with the other people and layed naked in fetal position for hours in the cold by the fire as the sun rose and entered an even deeper trance where I became a channel for Universal energy to flow and break deep patterns associated with the blocks caused by the curse.

An orgasmic experience like nothing I had ever experienced before, a total surrender to Being. I could finally rise naked and stand pround in front of all and be just me.


xx

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Original post: martin

Son of a Montage
06-24-2004, 04:48 PM
I'm considering using salvia divinorum. Has anyone tried salvia? Pretty much all of the reports I've heard about it deal with very spiritual "vision quest" type experiences. I'm interested in input from you more experienced psychonauts.I too have been interested in salvia. Is it safe to use? How long do the trips last? Are the trips spiritual and worth while?I actually just smoked some about 2 1/2 hours ago. It was the 5x extract. I wasn't using the "required" blow torch lighter or glass bong but it was a very good experience. A lot like mushrooms without the cluttered thought. I felt like the experience was hindered because of the tools I was using but I'll be upgrading when I try the 15x extract. There is definitely something useful to learn from this plant. All the more reason for "them" to make it illegal...

You can read some experiences here: http://www.salviasupply.com/salvia_expe ... ports.html

They are also a very good place to purchase from.

So is: http://www.amwellness.com (http://www.amwellness.com/) All shipping is free.

(I recommend getting your hands on as much of this stuff as you can before it's put underground...)

Salvia is being smoked to induce hallucinations, the diversity of which are described by its users to be similar to those induced by ketamine, mescaline, or psilocybin. It is being widely touted on internet sites aimed at young adults and adolescents eager to experiment with these types of substances.

http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/drugs ... ummary.htm

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Original post: Sud Ram

I would have to disagree with the "similarity" of the effects of Salvia. It is possible to realte it to the substances mentioneed but the strong active alkaloid - salvinorin - gets you into a state that is not common to any other plant or substance if you understand what's going on. Otherwise it's just a great high, yeah man I'm totally out of here...

Again I would remind you that we are discussing the use of enthoegens in Work and not recreational usage. Taking it or getting your hands on it just for the rush is not really of interest - or here at least. I have nothing against such practice or better, don't condemn it because I did lots of it myself but it now seems to miss the point.

I would like to hear about actual divinatory work with Salvia though and what kind of results you may have had. What process did you use? What kind of preparation or rituals?