can inhaling smoke of herbs cause divinition

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Sypheara
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Re: can inhaling smoke of herbs cause divinition

Post by Sypheara »

Sorry for doublepost but I cant edit my last reply. Sorry if my post came across aggressive, its just its a passionate area to me and I just do not understand the contrary mindset at all, which I find to place onself in a highly limiting position.
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Re: can inhaling smoke of herbs cause divinition

Post by Rin »

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree, I don't see anything being achieved by an extended debate over the subject.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
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cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

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Re: can inhaling smoke of herbs cause divinition

Post by 420 »

Rin wrote:Because at the end of the day, there are safer, more reliable and more consistent ways of achieving the same effects without the use of drugs - they just happen to require more effort.

.
Not everyone would agree. There are those that believe, going all the way back to sects of Zoroastrianism, that drugs are the ONLY way of achieving some magical effects. No amount of effort without them will help.
I also disagree that discussion of this topic will serve no useful purpose. Stopping the discussion may, however, prevent further embarrassment for you.
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Re: can inhaling smoke of herbs cause divinition

Post by Ramscha »

420 wrote:
Rin wrote:Because at the end of the day, there are safer, more reliable and more consistent ways of achieving the same effects without the use of drugs - they just happen to require more effort.

.
Not everyone would agree. There are those that believe, going all the way back to sects of Zoroastrianism, that drugs are the ONLY way of achieving some magical effects. No amount of effort without them will help.
I also disagree that discussion of this topic will serve no useful purpose. Stopping the discussion may, however, prevent further embarrassment for you.
Well, a rhetoric threat is a nice maneuver, but not very useful as argument.

Do you mind specifying the details of effects you mentioned? I am interested to hear you out.


Regarding the discussion from before, I agree with Rin on the point that drugs are not essentially necessary for magick. Some drugs are able to kick in and send your mind flying but so is your own body laboratory. Many people tend to forget it, but the human body is actually very cabable of producing its own drugs.
Assuming a change of state in consciousness is coupled to the biochemical pathways in the brain which are changed by the drug, the same goes for meditation and other operations. However, this requires of course some effort and patience. [rolleyes]

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Re: can inhaling smoke of herbs cause divinition

Post by 420 »

Entheogens can open the third eye in ways that magical practice can't. See the works of Terrance McKenna for his descriptions of the self transforming machine elves evoked with DMT. Also see Rick Strassman for his work with other world entities and DMT.
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Re: can inhaling smoke of herbs cause divinition

Post by Sypheara »

Possibly Rin. But I am genuinely interested as to why you think that especially for spirit work and similar things, that drugs and the plants that are with them are not worthy of study. And also, that such a study of that particular area of the occult, and communion with those spirits, to some degree involves ingestion which creates a physical, material link between Us and Them.

Its obviously a difference in paradigm and those are always good to discuss. I was having a good discussion with someone else, before they got removed from the forums.. it would be good if the one of two good discussions i've jad on this forum this week wern't summarily killed off for one reason or another.

I am not one to resort to ad hominem attacks, and do respect that you have a differing opinion. Just I think there is more ground to cover, and more to be gained from such a discussion on why we both feel like we do. As occultists, I think its very important we discuss such things as a community, because it does affect how such things are approached in the future.

Hope that made some sense, kinda tired.
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Re: can inhaling smoke of herbs cause divinition

Post by Nahemah »

I was having a good discussion with someone else, before they got removed from the forums..
Sorry, but who was this?
The only banning we've done recently has been of spammers, so I'm curious about this statement.

I don't want to interrupt the topic too much, but this should be addressed, as we don't 'remove' people and we only ban after all due considerations,or in other words; very rarely.

If a ban has been issued and you, or the banee, or indeed, any one else with any information, has relevant concerns, then you should contact staff about it.

If I've banned someone who shouldn't have been banned I'll address the situation again and remedy it where possible.

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Re: can inhaling smoke of herbs cause divinition

Post by Sypheara »

It wasn't a criticism, just was sudden thats all. Was that Nipha333 or something guy that i was having a discussion about LHP and RHP approaches about in the necromancy resource thread. I didn't see his other posts etc so i couldn't comment on why he was removed or give much feedback really. Just was enjoying conversation when suddenly he was gone! PM a reply? Don't want this to take this thread up too much.

Hoping Rin or someone else steers this back onto track [happyface]
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Re: can inhaling smoke of herbs cause divinition

Post by Nahemah »

Thanks for the clarification, I was just checking.

I may have made a mistake with that banning, so I'll look into it and see about sorting it out.

Your response really was important in this matter,so thanks again and I do apologise once more for the interruption.

Edit: After checking, this person will not be back, the ban was justified.

The reason for posting 'in topic' is for clarity, as the initial commentary about the banned member was made publicly. [thumbup]

So, do carry on.
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Re: can inhaling smoke of herbs cause divinition

Post by Rin »

420 wrote:Not everyone would agree. There are those that believe, going all the way back to sects of Zoroastrianism, that drugs are the ONLY way of achieving some magical effects. No amount of effort without them will help.
I also disagree that discussion of this topic will serve no useful purpose.
Could you show an example of one of these magical effects which the Zoroastrians believe (and 'believed' is the key word here) could only be achieved by inhaling intoxicating herbs?
Stopping the discussion may, however, prevent further embarrassment for you.
Yes, that's what I'm worried about, having my reputation ruined through an argument of mine being sliced into shreds on an anonymous message board I frequent occasionally by the logic of someone named ''420.'' [rolleyes]

Or, it could be that I've had this debate dozens of times and I don't particularly feel my time would be well spend repeating it, not to mention dragging the thread off topic.
Possibly Rin. But I am genuinely interested as to why you think that especially for spirit work and similar things, that drugs and the plants that are with them are not worthy of study. And also, that such a study of that particular area of the occult, and communion with those spirits, to some degree involves ingestion which creates a physical, material link between Us and Them.

Its obviously a difference in paradigm and those are always good to discuss. I was having a good discussion with someone else, before they got removed from the forums.. it would be good if the one of two good discussions i've jad on this forum this week wern't summarily killed off for one reason or another.

I am not one to resort to ad hominem attacks, and do respect that you have a differing opinion. Just I think there is more ground to cover, and more to be gained from such a discussion on why we both feel like we do. As occultists, I think its very important we discuss such things as a community, because it does affect how such things are approached in the future.

Hope that made some sense, kinda tired.
Like I said to mr. "420" up there, it's just a discussion I'm tired of having. There are only so many times you can repeat the same debate before it begins to feel redundant. I've made my opinion known, make of it what you will.

Although I will say that my comments were on the use of these plants for reaching higher states of being for the purpose of divination, not necessarily communing with the nature spirits associated with the plants and their environment. My opinions on that topic are more mixed, but I still maintain that, should it be done, it should only be done in the context of the proper cultural ritualistic training and setting. Too many people use ''communing with nature'' or ''reaching a higher state of being'' as an excuse to sit on their back lawn getting blasted on DMT or eating mushrooms or whatever. If you want to get high, get high, but don't hide it behind the pretense of spirituality when there are almost always more effective ways of achieving spiritual goals that don't involve drugs. And even if you do choose to involve drugs, much more in required than just getting high on the local park, it has to be a part of a larger system of purification and development, preferably within the context of the daily practice of a spiritual discipline.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
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Re: can inhaling smoke of herbs cause divinition

Post by 420 »

The magic inherent in the DMT experience does not download into a primitive language like English well. It's why I have grown tired of the discussion as well. You either know it through experience or you don't. Those who know it, like Dr. Rick Strassman, call it the spirit molecule. I'm sorry that all you can get from it is being wasted.
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Re: can inhaling smoke of herbs cause divinition

Post by Rin »

420 wrote:The magic inherent in the DMT experience does not download into a primitive language like English well. It's why I have grown tired of the discussion as well. You either know it through experience or you don't. Those who know it, like Dr. Rick Strassman, call it the spirit molecule. I'm sorry that all you can get from it is being wasted.
I never said hallucinogenic plants (or hallucinogens in general) can't induce spiritual experiences, but I wouldn't call them divinatory ones (ie: the original topic of this thread), and I believe there are better (safer and more reliable) methods for inducing both spiritual and divinatory experiences.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

- DDJ, Verse 27

"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett

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Re: can inhaling smoke of herbs cause divinition

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ark200 wrote:i have seen in many movies like sleepy hollow or 300 that witch or shamans burn some medicinal herbs and inhale its smoke and do divinition. wheather it is possible or not?

can inhaling smoke of medicinal herbs affect the mind? if yes, how?

please answer the questions

There are many ways the smoke can affect your mind. The smell of camp fire smoke makes me smile. Certain incense fragrances have emotional connections for me because I like to burn them. These are psychological effects that have little to do with things outside my personal frame of reference, but how you feel around particular scents has a direct affect on mood. In the same way, some perfumes or foods can trigger responses in the mind. If the smell makes you feel calm and focused, one could argue just brewing a pot of coffee without drinking it can affect occult work.

Science has found that mice inhaling frankincense smoke make more of certain brain chemicals and are looking at it to treat depression and anxiety. Since the mice would not have happy memories tied to the smell this is a bit different. Calming anxiety and feeling more positive could also have a direct affect on working with divination, rituals, and meditation.

Intention and frequency are also factors. I smoke cigarettes, and tobacco is a nightshade and sacred in some practices, but since it is an addiction for me, I would not say burning and inhaling it makes me any more in tune with the universe than breathing does. In my case, it's not all that special. On the other hand, if I have let a god inspire me and blended an incense for them that I really like the smell of, even without psychoactive herbs, it is special and can help me center my focus to work with that god. It is definitely an affect on my mind.

Though the smell of fresh rain or blossoms on the wind also affect my mind, no burning needed.

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Re: can inhaling smoke of herbs cause divinition

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manofsands wrote:I think drugs are like a magnifying glass. You know how you look thru one and see amazingly magnified things in the center... but everything at the edges is stretched and distorted. That is a compromise too. I have thought many amazing things while high,... wrote them down,.. sobered up,... read it and thought... WTF? It's not saying what I experienced wasn't valid, it just didn't translate down into the physical. I don't think much of it will.
I have experienced many times what you have described here, and I agree that cannabis has an effect upon the mind analogous to a magnifying glass, however, I'd like to point out that just because your insights "didn't translate down to the physical" doesn't mean that they can't. In fact, through training, one can learn to analyze the consciousness shift more and more objectively, such that all it would take is recreating a state similar to the altered state while one is sober or in another altered state. There is a concept in psychology relevant to this called "state dependency". Are you familiar with this? If you aren't, the central idea is that experiences in a given state of consciousness are most easily accessed (as memories) in that same state of consciousness. So, relevant to your example, it is easiest to remember stoned insights while stoned, and much more difficult, or seemingly impossible, while not stoned. There is a way around this, as hinted above, which involves comparing and contrasting states of consciousness with each other in increasing detail, and attempting to recreate states while in a trance/meditation state.

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Re: can inhaling smoke of herbs cause divinition

Post by MAZOHIR »

Not that I would recommend doing this, you understand, BUT, sure, henbane, marijuana, opium, ayahuasca, belladonna, jimson weed, mandragora, psilocybin mushrooms, and many more psychotropic herbs could very well put you into a state where you might divine something, but what, would be the question. NOT for the novice, and some of these very special herbs can, and have, caused insanity or death, or both.
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Re: can inhaling smoke of herbs cause divinition

Post by riot proof »

Here is a question.

If you can FORCE open the third eye with a substance, synthetic or natural, are you sure you want to?

My first experiences were sober, and not really pleasant. I shudder to think what those would be like with an amplifying substance involved. I could have literally died from fear with assistance.

I would also like to point out that not all areas used dangerous plants in this way. I have found no reference for Shinto or Buddhism using opiates as anything other than medicine for physical illness, and a rather low opinion of people who could not control their consumption. Hallucinogenic sage was not to be found outside the cloud forest until after Columbus, even if the vikings got to Canada first, so I would not consider it 'western'. 'Flying ointment' can only be attested to by Renaissance writers, so I would not call this traditional. If we look at Greek, Roman, and even mid to far eastern paths, there are so very many cults that you won't find a universal opinion in history. Some Native American tribes used and still use hallucinogenics, but when you check just how many nations they had and each nation's practice, you find they were no more agreed than the west.

So to dose or not to dose is a very OLD question that is still not agreed on.

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Re: can inhaling smoke of herbs cause divinition

Post by cyberdemon »

riot proof wrote:Here is a question.

If you can FORCE open the third eye with a substance, synthetic or natural, are you sure you want to?

My first experiences were sober, and not really pleasant. I shudder to think what those would be like with an amplifying substance involved. I could have literally died from fear with assistance.
bad trips happen. far more often than people like to admit.
a safety net for preventing those is the user themselves, slowly administering the drug/inhalant/chemical little by little to understand their own body's reactions instead of doing a straight jump into the pool, off the high board.
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Re: can inhaling smoke of herbs cause divinition

Post by WillowDarkWytch »

Motumbá Àse

I think that when people talks about the "damaging" aspects of drugs on magicians, witches, magic users and mystics, it's more psychological and maybe energetical than something concrete happening in the psychic body, or being simply "wrong".

When a person depends on a drug eather be weed, cigarettes, alcohol or any other drugs, that means that person has an emotional defieciency, has a "lack of" something emotionally that they fill with the "good feelings" that the drug might give. SO.. In that case, that person is not developing him or her self in a proper way, a way that is required to a magical practitioner.I speak as a therapist in this matter.

Other aspect that we should have in mind are elemental spirits. In the case of alcohol, cigarettes, cocaine, etc, any processed drug, spiritual studies (from clairvoyants to shamans wiht the "sight") say and share the opinion that any elemental spirit is harmful by its self, speacially those of plants and nature, BUT when their "vehicle" is deviated, distorted, the spirit changes too. So its once healing nature turns into something not that good, that stucks in the chakras and feeds from our energy. To be able to live there, needs more of it's elemental base energy so it makes the person wants more. This would be one reason for some addictions. In this case, weed does't fit in this kind of damage, because it hasn't been altered.

The other reason for addictions are obsesive spirits.. yeah, dead people. Kiumba or darkened deceased people who where addicted to any drugs, mostly with a poor spiritual undertanding and development, the tend to stay a lot in the low astral, going around places where other addicts or potential addicts might be, as bars, discoteques, clubs, etc. So they stuck to their "victims" aura and energetic centers, and they kind of "get high" through the person. When the subject gets high, feels the sensations and of course their sphere of sensation is affected, leting the obsessor feel the high and continue to his or hers addiction post mortem. sometimes are more than one "kiumba" on them.

That would be the "bad use" of drugs.

I have use sacred herbs and brews with amazonian shamans of Peru, such as Ayahuasca. All I can say is that thanks to it I came over things I wasn't been able just through therapy AND ceremonial magicks. So, It all depends on how it's used, because we must not forget about elemental spirit inhabitating inside those plants.

As for magick use of herbs and plants, it's ok I think but must be done with someone experienced. Psychedelics can softly open veils between the worlds OR tear them off making a lot of psychic damage. Schizofrenia might be a consecuence... When we "force" things we damage our chakras, and though it can be repaired through healing, one must "recognised" that is damaged, because visual and auditory hallusinations, so if the person is in a mystical path, might feel that his o hers psychic abillities are "on fire" hehehe And it's quite dangerous.

As for spirituallity, sacred plants and drugs might be use to achieve better things, as for the elemental spirits of the plant, there are some very fond of humans or healing spirit. So I "aprove", ofcourse with respect and responsability. For divination, in an expanded state of conciousness ofcourse you can divinate as you enter the inner/higher realms. It will depend on you own psychic state if you are alowed to go higher and see "clearer" or if you get stuck down and see your own shit (sorry my french).

That's my experience, I hope it helps.

Saravá
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Re: can inhaling smoke of herbs cause divinition

Post by Analytic13 »

Well you could probably find a use in shamanism..with the use of any Psychoactive drug et all...so if you go with the flow of what the drug is doing..you definitely have a chance at making some form of communion or communication with the spirits or people..or meta dimensions of the universe..

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