Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

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Haelos
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Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by Haelos »

Hello.
Today I'm posting with another question of sorts.
I've been looking for particular brews that assist in achieving gnosis for magickal states, and can help with various other meditative practices.

I understand that there are a lot of substances like this out there, so let me clarify a little bit.

I'd like to use herbs that are easily accessible, and preferably not illegal in the United States.
A small amount of said potion should be able to last a decent amount of time, without lasting long enough to feel like you're getting high.
I'm not trying to get drugged, I'm simply trying to find a mixture of substances that will help in generally quieting my mind and relaxing my body and subconscious.
I'd also like not to use substances that come with a permanent change, such as Psilocybe, LSD, Amanita Muscaria, etc.

I'm no where near stupid enough to use Atropine, so flying oitments are out of the question, along with any other form of Nightshade use.
I'd really like to stick to something that doesn't have the potential to kill me.

I imagine Chamomile will likely be a good ingredient for something like this.

If anyone has recipes to share, or merely individual herbs that give the desired effects I'm looking for, please do share.
If simply sharing herbs, however, please explain some of the ways you've prepared said mixtures for your own use.
Some herbs don't break down well in water, so tea may be out of the question.
I also don't have the required materials for making good herbal tinctures, although I can always use the mason jar method, but that is unprefered.


As a personal note, a good tea mixture I've come to enjoy is Chai in milk or eggnog. It isn't very fat soluble, I think, so I always have to steep it forever though. Give it a try.
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RoseRed
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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by RoseRed »

Chamomile takes 20 minutes to steep to get the medicinal use out of it. Make sure it's covered so you don't lose any of the essential oils. The longer it steeps the more bitter it becomes - just to let you know. I prefer the dried flowers to the powder that comes in premade tea bags.

My homemade chai takes about 4 hours to make and steep altogether. It's so worth it.
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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by Ušušur »

Here's a list of what I'm using when I feel mentally/psychically out of shape for good meditation or shamanic journeying. I tried it twice already and I can say it works pretty well.

Chaga mushrooms tea
Depending on your diet, drinking chaga can take 3-4 days to cleanse your body from various toxins before you start feeling that soothing err, 'feel'. Few days of using it (and eating/drinking properly) and you should feel its benefits. There are no side-effects - well, except those first few days, you might be in need to visit the bathroom more often. But then again, if you're not eating only McDonalds, you should be fine.

With chaga tea, I would also advise ginger+marigold tea. Avoid tea bags, get some fresh stuff. This is a great boost to your bloodstream/immune system and you should feel better in general, which is all good for your mind.

And lastly, get some fresh Aronia juice. It lowers your blood pressure, calms the body in general and has a whole bunch of healthy properties. The juice is a bit expensive, you should drink about 1-2 dcl per day. I have high blood pressure and I can tell you it works great, if I drink too much I actually get sleepy. If you have low blood pressure be careful as people usually experience dizziness - aronia works very fast.

Hope something of this can help you.

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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by Haelos »

Some nice tips, and I will experiment with what I can when I am able to do so.

However, I'd also like to add a little question.
Is there a substance you can recommend that promote meditative trance, but also helps keep consciousness?

I've been having problems with falling asleep in deep meditation, and I'd like something to keep my mind up, but quiet.
The only substances I know that follow this line are hallucinogenics, and they do not at all keep the mind quiet, although I won't sleep for at least 7 hours after a trip.

Any input is appreciated, especially because this has been an ongoing problem for me, but has only recently impeded my work.
What good is astral travel if I'm actually unconscious when it happens, so much so I can't even remember it as a dream?
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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by corvidus »

From what I understand, meditative 'trances' come in various depths, but they all depend on the mind being awake while the body is asleep or deeply relaxed.

If you're interested in experimenting with various formulas, I would suggest looking into herbs which relax the muscles, and also herbs which stimulate mental activity. The full benefit of a formula depends on your lifestyle (no sugar or caffeine, no alcohol and etc.).
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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by Haelos »

corvidus wrote:From what I understand, meditative 'trances' come in various depths, but they all depend on the mind being awake while the body is asleep or deeply relaxed.

If you're interested in experimenting with various formulas, I would suggest looking into herbs which relax the muscles, and also herbs which stimulate mental activity. The full benefit of a formula depends on your lifestyle (no sugar or caffeine, no alcohol and etc.).
That is an unfortunate truth. I have the variables of a moderately poor appetite, tobacco, caffeine, and THC to to add into the mix.
It's time to quit smoking cigarettes again soon. Cutting soda out wouldn't hurt, but that's actually about as difficult as cutting smoking out, considering those I live with and what ends up in the house to drink.

Are there any particular herbs you could recommend that won't be interfered to heavily by the tobacco or caffeine?
Those are the two most likely to effect other herbs being added to my system. THC blends pretty well with just about everything, and my appetite isn't so bad that it should interfere with any toxins being cleaned out of me.
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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by magari »

If you are falling asleep its because your body needs it.

If you are a heavy user of marijuana I recommend switching to pure sativa strains. Indica's high cannabinoid count knocks me on my ass, while a good sativa gives me the mental energy to stay awake forever.

Switch to dabs if you're still smoking the flower. The toxins in the smoke from a burning plant don't help your situation. There is a lot less of that going on when you're burning the essential oils of the plant.


Otherwise I agree with the person who mentioned the mushroom tea.

and ginseng promotes focus and memory recall, which is essential for meditation.

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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by Haelos »

I'm not too sure what strain type I smoke, but I usually smoke wax when I can get it.
A gram of oil lasts me 3 days or less, if that is any capable indication of my level of consumption.
When smoking, it does well to help me stay awake or pass out, depending on what I need at the particular time.

How's the mushroom tea on taste? And what can be used to flavor it well?
I don't eat mushrooms as food, as I don't like the taste.
When eating psilocybe, I usually just powderify it and gulp it down with milk, so I don't taste the bitter, near-shit taste.
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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by Ušušur »

Chaga is a bit bitter to taste, you can use lemon or perhaps fresh stevia. I use lemon sometimes.

But I'd like to focus on this for a bit;
corvidus wrote:The full benefit of a formula depends on your lifestyle (no sugar or caffeine, no alcohol and etc.).
This is why I said drink chaga+marigold. Your body needs some cleansing, but while you're at it, try to suppress your desire for whatever is bad for your body before you try meditating again. I'm not saying it's impossible to reach certain meditative states if you're smoking tobacco, I'm trying to tell you to experiment with discipline. There is no point in drinking all these teas if you're gonna drink Coke afterwards.

As for the falling asleep problem, try changing location, time and conditions of your meditative work.

The best results I get is after a period of fasting, good workout or being somewhere in nature. When I say somewhere in nature it means far from people, it helps to get lost a bit but again, to keep a decent sense of orientation. I couldn't possibly imagine falling asleep inside a cave, under a tree or near waterfall.

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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by Haelos »

I'd like to bump this thread with the particular emphasis on finding exact recipes. I found a lot of useful herbs, but I don't wanna just go throwing them all into a pot and hoping they come out good. Something that tastes good never hurts, but I need something with a strong effect.
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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by Goði »

Mugwort should help. It promotes relaxation, opens the mind, and allows messages to come through. When burned as incense it can help with the manifestation of a variety of spiritual beings.

You can brew it as a strong tea. It has a slightly strange odor, but tastes very much like Oolong green tea to me. Tea takes between 20 minutes and an hour to kick in, the effects are generally very mild, and last for a couple hours. It is in no way impairing, in my experience.

You can also smoke it. It is pretty smooth, but will "bite" if it gets too hot. I smoke with a long-stem tobacco pipe (Churchwarden for you aficionados out there) and it works well for me. By the time its all burned, I'm completely relaxed and feeling receptive. I use smoking my pipe as part of my meditative practices as well, so I think that helps put me in the right frame of mind. Smoking mugwort, the effects kick in sooner, and are a bit more "intense", in the way being relaxed and meditative can ever be "intense". In this way I have found the experience to be somewhat distracting, but not to the point of impairment, either.

Effects of the tea last longer than smoking. Mugwort is perfectly legal in the US, and is considered a weed in most places. If you choose to gather it yourself, gather it around/before midsummer, and be sure to wash it thoroughly; the leaves have tiny hairs that love to collect dust, road salt, soot from car exhaust, etc. I actually buy mine (and it is ridiculously cheap) because I can't get the stuff I gather clean enough that it doesn't stink like burning rubber.

Lastly, take a hard look at your meditation/shamanic practice. Many people use their living room (couch/armchair) or bedroom (comfy bed) to lie in, and both of these are places where people fall asleep all the time. It creates a relaxing, quiet, and familiar atmosphere that is crucial to Journeying yes, but it also creates a headspace very much not aligned with Journeying. If you haven't already, dedicate a space, time, set of clothes, music, and incense that you only use for Journeying and nothing else.

I hope this helps. Sage travels.

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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by Desecrated »

Haelos wrote:
That is an unfortunate truth. I have the variables of a moderately poor appetite, tobacco, caffeine, and THC to to add into the mix.
There is nothing on the legal market that is going to be able to cut through that combination of crap.

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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by cyberdemon »

A good cup of coffee will make you feel happy and energized, helping you focus and perform productively on your tasks.
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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by Rin »

You're willing to go to all this effort to try and find substances you can consume to help you reach higher states of consciousness, but you're not willing to make actual lifestyle changes which would provide considerable long term benefit towards this goal like giving up smoking, or even soft drinks? Smoking I can understand is difficult, given the addictive aspect, but a strong enough desire can overpower any addiction, with sincere effort. As for soft drinks, there's nobody holding a gun to your head making you drink them - surely you have a tap in the house?

Sorry to say it, but there are no short cuts, spiritually speaking. All the potions in the world won't help you if your body is polluted and in poor shape and you lack the discipline to make basic lifestyle changes.
"The path of the Sage is called
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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by Haelos »

Rin wrote:You're willing to go to all this effort to try and find substances you can consume to help you reach higher states of consciousness, but you're not willing to make actual lifestyle changes which would provide considerable long term benefit towards this goal like giving up smoking, or even soft drinks? Smoking I can understand is difficult, given the addictive aspect, but a strong enough desire can overpower any addiction, with sincere effort. As for soft drinks, there's nobody holding a gun to your head making you drink them - surely you have a tap in the house?

Sorry to say it, but there are no short cuts, spiritually speaking. All the potions in the world won't help you if your body is polluted and in poor shape and you lack the discipline to make basic lifestyle changes.

As I stated before, due to the people I live with, it's almost impossible to quit drinking soda. Yeah, we have tap water, but really.. Are you dumb? Tap water is worse for you than cigarette smoke. I choose against drinking hundreds of pounds of fluoride in exchange for a couple ounces of sugar and caffeine.

I've attempted to quit smoking before a few times, but for one, I ENJOY smoking, and the second, my mate smokes.
With my mate constantly smoking and my desire to be around her, I'm not very easily going to give it up. Every time I get close to her I have a craving for a smoke, so that's just something to deal with.

As a final note, spiritual civilizations have been ingesting tobacco for ages, both in and out of their practices. I see no drastic reason why this should effect my attempts at reaching gnosis.

I'm not looking for shortcuts here, I'm looking for additions to add to my practice. I'm perfectly capable of meditation on my own. I've even reached gnosis more than a few times. But, due to the fact I like ingesting plant matter, I'm willing to take the time to do this. Nothing more, and no reason less.
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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by Rin »

As I stated before, due to the people I live with, it's almost impossible to quit drinking soda. Yeah, we have tap water, but really.. Are you dumb? Tap water is worse for you than cigarette smoke. I choose against drinking hundreds of pounds of fluoride in exchange for a couple ounces of sugar and caffeine.
...you seriously drink nothing but caffeinated soft drinks because you view it as healthier than tap water? :| Don't get me wrong, I'm a bit iffy about fluoride myself, but compared to the massive proven health detriments of drinking soft drinks, that seems absurd. On top of which, soft drinks themselves also contain fluoride.

http://fluoridealert.org/content/processed-drinks/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10573939

Image

If you're that worried about fluoride, buy boxed spring water (from a reputable company) and drink that. It's cheaper than soft drink and a thousand times healthier. Or alternatively, install a water filter. Either method will reduce your fluoride intake over drinking soft drinks constantly. if you just prefer soft drink then that's your call I guess, but be honest with yourself about why you drink it, don't blame it on outside influences you could easily change.

I'm not saying you should drink absolutely nothing but water, but it definitely should make up the majority of your fluid intake.
I've attempted to quit smoking before a few times, but for one, I ENJOY smoking, and the second, my mate smokes.
Of course you enjoy it, or you wouldn't do it. People don't become addicted to things they don't enjoy (medications aside). That doesn't justify the massive damage you're doing to yourself.
With my mate constantly smoking and my desire to be around her, I'm not very easily going to give it up. Every time I get close to her I have a craving for a smoke, so that's just something to deal with.
That's life, the big changes, the ones worth making, are never easy. That said, I've gone through the whole processing of giving up addictions multiple times, so I can sympathize, but it's worth it in the long run. Addiction, especially to something as toxic as cigarettes, is a genuine impediment to spiritual growth, especially as part of a broader pattern of unhealthy lifestyle choices.

Have you tried electronic cigarettes? I know multiple people who've had astounding success using them as a replacement and then gradually tapering down the nicotine content.
As a final note, spiritual civilizations have been ingesting tobacco for ages, both in and out of their practices.
Not tobacco harvested by multinational corporations, sprayed with dozens of poisonous synthetic chemicals, and not, to my understanding, as a constant daily habit.
I see no drastic reason why this should effect my attempts at reaching gnosis.
You see no drastic reason why ingesting toxic substances which, combined together, damage nearly every functional system in your body, should impact your spiritual growth?
I'm not looking for shortcuts here, I'm looking for additions to add to my practice. I'm perfectly capable of meditation on my own. I've even reached gnosis more than a few times. But, due to the fact I like ingesting plant matter, I'm willing to take the time to do this. Nothing more, and no reason less.
You don't need additions, you need subtractions. You need to take a hard look at your unhealthy habits and be honest with yourself about why they exist instead, at least if you're serious about spiritual progress.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

- DDJ, Verse 27

"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett

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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by Haelos »

I didn't particularly want to get into this, but you've sparked my interest enough for a rebuttal.
I don't owe you any excuses, so don't think what I'm saying is a way to justify my actions. I'm simply stating things how they are.

I didn't mean soda was healthier than tap water, but considering the soda we get (faygo), it's a somewhat better choice in my instance. I've seen a lot of that research you shared on the damaging effects of soda, but from the research I've done on Faygo in the past, it's one of the least severe of soft drinks out there.
Again, not trying to justify my choices here, I don't make my decisions lightly either way. I'd much rather die of thirst than drink anything we have in the house, but dying of dehydration is ridiculously painful. Trust me, I've tried.

Keep in mind that literally everything we put in our bodies (except pure water) is a poison to us, in one way or another. Every single food and pill we ingest is fought off by our body and excreted as quick as possible. The only reason we survive is because our bodies are *that* good at fighting off toxins and keeping the usable nutrition. If our body had it's way, we'd be ingesting pure water and protein, and almost nothing else.

Bottled water (I've been told) is as bad for you as canned soda, but that does make up a pretty huge portion of my liquid intake. I drink as little soda as possible, but water runs out quick in my house (considering we drink it, use it as bong water, give it to the pet reptile and hermit crabs, use it in cooking, and use it for watering the house plants) leaving us with 12 cases of soda and rarely anything else. I'm not the person who purchases the groceries in my household, and even if I tell someone I need something specific, or not to get something, I'm ignored every time.


I've actually quit smoking normal cigarettes for the e-cig a few different times, with varying success. The first time I switched for about two months, but again. Being around my mate (especially when we're smoking marijuana together) causes me to continue having cravings. There's nothing quite like a real cigarette after a fat few bong rips, and e-cigs were never able to replicate that feeling.
And from what I've heard from other people, the cravings absolutely never go away when you quit smoking. They just become more tolerable. I love the entire action of smoking, it doesn't matter if I get high, or get a headbuzz. I just haven't found the right herb to replace tobacco with (and I've tried many different herbs and blends.) I need the right taste and harshness, or else I may as well not be smoking.
I own a bunch of different e-cigs, but my biggest problem is finding a good tank for the liquid. (Currently I use the Talon Atomizer, from my local vape shops name-brand battery, but it takes too much power for my smaller batteries, and my best one is broken. Most of my vape pens are used exclusively for marijuana concentrates now.)
I've also heard many negative things about e-cigs (as one would expect) such as them causing mold to grow in your lungs, for instance. So really, what the fuck can we believe to be a "healthier alternative" to anything out there?

Oh yeah, and I would love to grow my own tobacco, but I heard it was illegal to do so in the U.S., and I don't have the resources to provide for that level of farming operation in my current situation. Clean tobacco would so obviously be preferred, but there are limits to what I am capable of as a human being.

Again, civilizations much more spiritually awakened have ingested their fair share of strange chemicals and substances, and it, in no way, impacted their growth. I understand the effects it has on our bodies, but it's all just simple chemical reactions. The entire purpose of the magi living here on earth is to overpower their own inner and outer influences, and that includes the chemical reactions that make up everything we are as human beings.
I tend to think I have a pretty good control over a lot of what goes on in my head, at this point. I can bring about some of the same effects in my body and mind that I get from other substances, it's just not as easy to do.
As toxic as these substances are to our flawed mortal shells, they go hand-in-hand with the spiritual experience so many of us crave.
I don't have the proper thoughts in place to continue this line, but whatever.


My unhealthy habits exist for the exact same reason that my healthy ones do.
I chose it. Nothing else.
I make the active decision every time I light a cigarette to take ten minutes off of my life, and damage my lung capacity.
I make the active decision to ingest a drink that ruins my heart and teeth, to save myself from ruining my mind. I know this. I make no excuses, like you seem to think I do. Take the worst possible thing you can think of me, and I knew it as fact ten years ago.
I might make bad choices, but they are *MY* choices, and I'm happy with them.

As this last point, please don't think I'm attempting to be insulting to you, at any point in this. This is not the case. I'm just extremely arrogant in everything I say, whether I'm 100% knowledgeable or not.
But please, in the future don't EVER tell me what I need to do to progress spiritually. Don't tell me what you think I need, don't tell me if I'm doing something wrong in your eyes. You are not me, and you have not walked my path.
Feel free to make suggestions, but do it as such. A suggestion. I don't come to you demanding you change your life, so don't go to others with a similar intent.
I'm well aware of the steps I need to take to continue moving forward. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy a little new knowledge and guidance here and there, but no man dictates my path or progress. That is left to God alone.
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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by Rin »

Haelos wrote: I don't owe you any excuses, so don't think what I'm saying is a way to justify my actions. I'm simply stating things how they are.
You don't owe me anything, but you owe it to yourself to be honest about your lifestyle.
I didn't mean soda was healthier than tap water, but considering the soda we get (faygo), it's a somewhat better choice in my instance. I've seen a lot of that research you shared on the damaging effects of soda, but from the research I've done on Faygo in the past, it's one of the least severe of soft drinks out there.
It's still packed full of sugar, artificial coloring and flavoring and all sorts of absurd chemicals (including fluoride, I'd bet). And possibly caffeine? I don't know, the only caffeinated soft drink here is Coke, but I've heard most of the ones in the US have caffeine in them.

The stuff just isn't something you should drink on a regular basis, unless your goal in life is to have a heart attack by 50.
Keep in mind that literally everything we put in our bodies (except pure water) is a poison to us, in one way or another. Every single food and pill we ingest is fought off by our body and excreted as quick as possible. The only reason we survive is because our bodies are *that* good at fighting off toxins and keeping the usable nutrition. If our body had it's way, we'd be ingesting pure water and protein, and almost nothing else.
Well yeah, of course anything in sufficient quantities is going to kill you, even pure water will do it (hyponatremia). That doesn't mean you should just throw the towel in and pump whatever toxins you want into your body because it's easy. Don't get me wrong, I'm no vegan health nut, but there's a basic standard as far as physical health goes if you want to get anywhere spiritually, it's not an especially high standard, but if you don't meet it then eventually you'll end up banging your head against a brick wall.

Remember - As Above, So Below. The damage you're doing to your body is spilling over into your energetic anatomy and your mind. The longer you live like this, the harder it will be to eventually undo that damage across the entire spectrum.
Bottled water (I've been told) is as bad for you as canned soda,
Straight up, 100% nonsense. Sorry, but it is. I'm not big on bottled water for environmental reasons (I go for the big boxes, at least the cardboard is recyclable), and there's the whole question of chemicals in the plastic, but no water that hasn't been intentionally poisoned is going to be anywhere near as bad for your body as even the safest soft drink.
I'm not the person who purchases the groceries in my household, and even if I tell someone I need something specific, or not to get something, I'm ignored every time.
Then go buy it yourself, if that's what it comes down to. If you really can't convince your partner or your mother or whoever it is that does the shopping to grab a box or two of spring water while they're at the shops or install a filter on the tap so you feel safe drinking that, then just go and buy some. What's stopping you?

I'm also somewhat concerned that you seem to live with people who prioritize having bong water available over having drinking water available. It's none of my business, but I'm getting the impression you live in a pretty unhealthy environment. It's your life, but again, if you're serious about spirituality, it's probably something you should think about.
I've actually quit smoking normal cigarettes for the e-cig a few different times, with varying success. The first time I switched for about two months, but again. Being around my mate (especially when we're smoking marijuana together) causes me to continue having cravings. There's nothing quite like a real cigarette after a fat few bong rips, and e-cigs were never able to replicate that feeling.
And from what I've heard from other people, the cravings absolutely never go away when you quit smoking. They just become more tolerable. I love the entire action of smoking, it doesn't matter if I get high, or get a headbuzz. I just haven't found the right herb to replace tobacco with (and I've tried many different herbs and blends.) I need the right taste and harshness, or else I may as well not be smoking.
I own a bunch of different e-cigs, but my biggest problem is finding a good tank for the liquid. (Currently I use the Talon Atomizer, from my local vape shops name-brand battery, but it takes too much power for my smaller batteries, and my best one is broken. Most of my vape pens are used exclusively for marijuana concentrates now.)
Yup, quitting an addiction is painful, frustrating and requires a serious overhaul of how you live. Change is hard, cravings are a bitch and pressure is difficult to ignore, but there are millions of people out there who have successfully quit everything from tobacco to weed to crack to heroin - the only difference between them and you is that they decided that they wanted something they couldn't have while addicted more than they wanted to avoid the pain of giving up the addiction.

The hard truth is that at one point in your life, you're going to have to choose between your self destructive addictions and your spiritual pursuits. I'm not judging you, or telling you how to live your life, just telling you that if you want to grow spiritually, you're going to have to do things that are painful. Growth is change, and change is painful, that's the way life is. You can't grow spiritually and be a slave to materialistic self destruction.
I've also heard many negative things about e-cigs (as one would expect) such as them causing mold to grow in your lungs, for instance. So really, what the fuck can we believe to be a "healthier alternative" to anything out there?
Where are you getting this stuff from? You'll smoke cigarettes and bongs without a second thought, but you're worried that e-cigs will cause you to grow mold in your lungs? Yes there are questions about some of the chemical byproducts of vaporized vegetable glycerin, but given what we already know about how horrible cigarettes are for you, even if every suspected fault with e-cigs turns out to be true, they'll still be the healthier option by orders of magnitude.
Again, civilizations much more spiritually awakened have ingested their fair share of strange chemicals and substances, and it, in no way, impacted their growth.
That's a cop out and you know it. Entheogens were used in very specific social and cultural contexts, as part of a broader spectrum of spiritual training, and always in a controlled and highly regulated fashion. Ripping a bong and then smoking cigs while sitting on the couch watching TV is in no way comparable to Shaivites smoking marijuana during meditation on holy days or South Americans drinking Ayahuasca under the guidance of a properly trained elder shaman. Even then, the question of whether those practices were actually spiritually beneficial remains open - those same cultures did things in both spiritual and mundane contexts which would seem horrific or absurd to modern western sensibilities. I'm a firm believer in the benefits of Chi Kung, for example, but I'm not about to start hanging heavy objects off my testicles to cause my jing to ascent as some practitioners do in China. Just because something was done by people who were spiritually attained, it doesn't mean that that practice necessarily contributed to their attainment.

My unhealthy habits exist for the exact same reason that my healthy ones do.
I chose it. Nothing else.
I make the active decision every time I light a cigarette to take ten minutes off of my life, and damage my lung capacity.
No you don't - you make the choice to surrender to biochemical cravings and short term, external pressures, that isn't the same thing as a rational, thought out decision made for your overall greater good. You said it yourself, you smoke because your partner smokes and because you crave it after smoking weed. The only choice you're making there is to refrain from choosing and allow outside forces dictate your behavior - just like what you drink. It's easy to go with the flow and let circumstance dictate your life, but if you live that way you'll wake up one day realizing you're 40 or 50 years old, the better part of your life is behind you and you never achieved the things you wanted to achieve and were capable of achieving because it was easier to just sit on the couch with a bong, an ashtray and a bottle of soft drink. If you make it to 40 or 50 - living that way, a heart attack or a stroke before then isn't outside the realms of possibility, especially if the rest of your lifestyle is as unhealthy as what you drink and smoke.
I make the active decision to ingest a drink that ruins my heart and teeth, to save myself from ruining my mind. I know this. I make no excuses, like you seem to think I do. Take the worst possible thing you can think of me, and I knew it as fact ten years ago.
I might make bad choices, but they are *MY* choices, and I'm happy with them.
We've been over this - putting aside the question of whether fluoride "ruins the mind" to any degree (I've yet to speak to any authorities on spiritual matters who've given a damn one way or the other about fluoride, and scientific studies don't demonstrate any cognitive degeneration), you're getting fluoride with your soft drink anyway. You're not protecting anything, except perhaps yourself from the effort of getting off the couch and going to the shops.

Putting aside philosophical debates over choice and free will, then the hard truth is that your lifestyle is antithetical to serious spiritual pursuits, in the same way that a lifestyle of eating fast food 3 meals a day is antithetical to the goal of becoming an athlete. Which is fine if you don't have any spiritual ambitions, but if you do, and I assume that is the case by your presence here, then you need to take a long, hard look at the way you live and why you live that way. If you don't do it now, it will be forced on you eventually when you hit the spiritual brick wall. A strong soul can't be sustained by a weak body.
As this last point, please don't think I'm attempting to be insulting to you, at any point in this. This is not the case. I'm just extremely arrogant in everything I say, whether I'm 100% knowledgeable or not.
But please, in the future don't EVER tell me what I need to do to progress spiritually. Don't tell me what you think I need, don't tell me if I'm doing something wrong in your eyes. You are not me, and you have not walked my path.
Feel free to make suggestions, but do it as such. A suggestion. I don't come to you demanding you change your life, so don't go to others with a similar intent.
I'm well aware of the steps I need to take to continue moving forward. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy a little new knowledge and guidance here and there, but no man dictates my path or progress. That is left to God alone.
I'm not demanding anything, just telling you from experience that you're living a lifestyle which is counterproductive to your goals, and that, quite frankly, you seem in denial about both the consequences of that lifestyle (spiritual and mundane) and the cause of it.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

- DDJ, Verse 27

"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett

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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by Frumens »

Boxed water is not something we have in the United States. I'd never heard or seen those words put together until I read this thread.

Rawn Clark talks about working through his cigarette addiction on his Bardon companion website. I've seen him smoke in recent videos, so it seems it's possible to have some level of attainment in that system while smoking. Maybe Haleos could email him and ask for advice, though I don't know if Haleos has any interest in the Bardon system.
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by Rin »

Frumens wrote:Boxed water is not something we have in the United States. I'd never heard or seen those words put together until I read this thread. [/qupte]

That sucks (although I still think it couldn't hurt to check, it might vary from state to state, as so much over there seems to), but there's still the option of a water filter (probably the best one, unless you move regularly) or bottled water, which, while not ideal, is still miles ahead of drinking soft drink daily.
Rawn Clark talks about working through his cigarette addiction on his Bardon companion website. I've seen him smoke in recent videos, so it seems it's possible to have some level of attainment in that system while smoking. Maybe Haleos could email him and ask for advice, though I don't know if Haleos has any interest in the Bardon system.
Yeah, he discusses it in the book as well, although I can't speak for Clark's level of attainment. A lot of great Eastern masters also smoke to varying degrees - off the top of my head, Danaos mentions John Chang smoking while healing patients in his book, I've heard a funny account of GM Doo Wai smoking a cigarette while fighting off challengers one handed, and there's a Tai Chi master and another master on Wudang Mountain, both of who's names I can't remember, who also smoke. Of course cultural factors are at work there - China 10 - 15 years ago was akin to the West in the 60's/70's, widespread smoking is socially acceptable, and the dangers are only just becoming a subject of widespread concern. But it's a question of degree, and of progression, and the context of a wider lifestyle. It's one thing for someone with an otherwise balanced and healthy lifestyle, a strong physical body and developed mental discipline, on top of a decent degree of energetic and spiritual progress already behind their belt, to indulge in things like tobacco, alcohol, unhealthy eating, etc. (Even with students, there's nothing wrong with occasional indulgence - I'm not advocating some puritanical lifestyle as a necessity for spiritual work) They're at a stage where their physical and energetic bodies can generally fight off the negative effects, and they have the mental discipline to recognize where to draw the line, how much is too much, before addiction or unhealthy habits set in subconsciously.

That's entirely different from someone early on in the path, inundated in not just one but multiple unhealthy, self-destructive habits and addictions which they not only don't have the desire to cease, but which they don't even recognize as counterproductive. A marathon runner can grab the occasional burger without any real problems, but someone who's eaten nothing but KFC and McDonalds for 5 years is never going to be able to run a marathon until they change their diet. It just isn't going to happen.

I'm not criticizing, I was in a very similar situation when I first started the path - I ate terribly, smoked, drank frequently, never exercised and was addicted to an assortment of dangerous drugs (at least one of which I didn't recognize as an addiction and tried to continue using while attempting to progress spiritually, which was predictably counterproductive, although led to some interesting experiences). Except for the more serious of the addictions, I didn't even recognize that these behaviors were problematic to my spiritual aspirations beyond the most general sense - they were so normalized to me I just figured if I practiced every day, it wouldn't matter if I spent the rest of the time destroying my body and mind. It took a slow and painful progress of over a year before I recognized that I had to either overhaul my life or give up my spiritual aspirations, and I'm still working on that overhaul (and the rather painful process of cleansing the energy body of the assorted blockages and stagnations which result from close to a decade of dissipated living - not something I would wish on anyone). That's why I'm so passionate about the subject - if I come off as a little preachy, it's only because I recognize some of my own barriers in what Haelos is discussing, and this is the stuff I wish I'd known 3 years ago. Of course no two people live the same life, but there are general similarities in the challenges that most spiritual aspirants face, and learning to revamp your lifestyle to complement, not counteract, your spiritual aspirations is one of them.

In short - there's no substance, no potion, no herb or pill or chemical, short of the Philosophers Stone itself, which will provide a spiritual benefit to someone greater than the benefit they would attain from ceasing the daily consumption of soft drink, tobacco and weed.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

- DDJ, Verse 27

"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett

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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by Nahemah »

This thread went quite far off topic and interesting though the digression is, please remember folks: unless a member specifically asks about lifestyle choices and wants advice on them, there's no need to get preachy about such matters or for that matter, to start lecturing to the person concerned.

This is in the Shamanism folder, after all. [thumbup]

We are not all seeking the same ends and not everyone is interested in Asceticism, or indeed, views it the same way as those who are.

I don't have any recipes, as such, but I also use mugwort [and catnip, together] from time to time. Among other things, as suits me.

I can trance with or without substances, as I've always been able to do so and the ability far preceeds the entheogen use, however, I like the ease and comfort afforded by entheogens and as I am doing as my ancestors did when I sit out [ Utiseta] using them, the headspace that this provides is very useful for me.

IMMV, of course.
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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by Haelos »

@Rin, you really seem to make a lot of insinuations about my life, considering you literally know nothing about it except what I've chosen to share with you.
I'm pretty sure I already stated this quite clearly, but you do not know my level of progress, you do not know my consumption of any substances (except marijuana, which I've shared), and you don't quite see things from any point of view but your own.
You come off as a very poor reader, considering your responses only seem to take into account half of anything I say in a given section.

You would think there would be more people who don't smoke and drink who are spiritually awakened, if anything you said was correct.

I've said all I could say in this argument, and if you don't want to read what I write properly, that's on you.

But Nahemah makes a very good point, and this thread went severely off topic. As I've said, I'm well aware of my own shortcomings, without you attempting to spew them out at me.
"Tell me your worst possible opinion of me, and I knew it as fact ten years ago." Did you miss that part?
This conversation is done. Please refrain from replying to me unless you have something truly constructive to what I ask here.


@Nahemah, thank you for your suggestion. How do you choose to intake your herbs? I assume, with no recipes, that you smoke them?
I've been considering mixing mugwort into my blends given the comments here, but I don't like the taste of smoked catnip very much, and I've never had it as tea.
As you said, there's something comforting about knowing you have the convenience to journey easily using herbal substances. Obviously I don't intend to use them as a crutch (and only use them as needed) but it allows a lot of versatility in practice. I don't want every single shamanic journey I attempt to be riddled with my own brain getting in the way.


@Anyone who cares
A good thing I should probably note here (to those who do not know)
Smoking a substance will ALWAYS make it effect you *quicker*, but the effects will not last as long as other methods.
Ingesting it (via eating or drinking) will ALWAYS make it effect you *longer*, but the effects take a longer time to kick in.
Injecting it is the worst possible combination of "the best of both worlds". It hits you quick (quicker than smoking), and it lasts a pretty long time, although not as long as regular ingestion.

This is only a general guideline for substances though, and particular herbs or drugs may be different.
I highly recommend *against* ever injecting yourself with anything.
Although, as I post this, my mind lives in the wonder of an attempt to inject an alcohol-based herbal tincture. That would be something ridiculous.
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Tell me what you know about darkness, and I will tell you about the light.
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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by Rin »

This thread went quite far off topic and interesting though the digression is, please remember folks: unless a member specifically asks about lifestyle choices and wants advice on them, there's no need to get preachy about such matters or for that matter, to start lecturing to the person concerned.
It's not like I brought it up out of nowhere, the subject was raised quite deliberately before I commented on it. All I did was offer advice and a few small factual corrections - if that's preaching and lecturing, then I wish more people in the occult community would preach and lecture.
@Rin, you really seem to make a lot of insinuations about my life, considering you literally know nothing about it except what I've chosen to share with you.
I'm pretty sure I already stated this quite clearly, but you do not know my level of progress, you do not know my consumption of any substances (except marijuana, which I've shared), and you don't quite see things from any point of view but your own.
You come off as a very poor reader, considering your responses only seem to take into account half of anything I say in a given section.

You would think there would be more people who don't smoke and drink who are spiritually awakened, if anything you said was correct.

I've said all I could say in this argument, and if you don't want to read what I write properly, that's on you.
I'm sorry you feel that way - good luck.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

- DDJ, Verse 27

"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett

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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by Haelos »

Rin wrote:
This thread went quite far off topic and interesting though the digression is, please remember folks: unless a member specifically asks about lifestyle choices and wants advice on them, there's no need to get preachy about such matters or for that matter, to start lecturing to the person concerned.
It's not like I brought it up out of nowhere, the subject was raised quite deliberately before I commented on it. All I did was offer advice and a few small factual corrections - if that's preaching and lecturing, then I wish more people in the occult community would preach and lecture.
@Rin, you really seem to make a lot of insinuations about my life, considering you literally know nothing about it except what I've chosen to share with you.
I'm pretty sure I already stated this quite clearly, but you do not know my level of progress, you do not know my consumption of any substances (except marijuana, which I've shared), and you don't quite see things from any point of view but your own.
You come off as a very poor reader, considering your responses only seem to take into account half of anything I say in a given section.

You would think there would be more people who don't smoke and drink who are spiritually awakened, if anything you said was correct.

I've said all I could say in this argument, and if you don't want to read what I write properly, that's on you.
I'm sorry you feel that way - good luck.
Thank you for your kind parting words. I'm sorry this conversation lead the way it did.
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"God is an imprecise name for the only thing in the universe that actually exists."
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Tell me what you know about darkness, and I will tell you about the light.
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Selected Contributions;
Planetary Associations of Common Intoxicants
The Mysteries of Death

https://hdagaz.wordpress.com/

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Re: Potions for Gnosis and other meditative states.

Post by Nahemah »

...How do you choose to intake your herbs? I assume, with no recipes, that you smoke them?
I've been considering mixing mugwort into my blends given the comments here, but I don't like the taste of smoked catnip very much, and I've never had it as tea.
As you said, there's something comforting about knowing you have the convenience to journey easily using herbal substances. Obviously I don't intend to use them as a crutch (and only use them as needed) but it allows a lot of versatility in practice. I don't want every single shamanic journey I attempt to be riddled with my own brain getting in the way.
Yeh, I judge by eye and pick and dry my own, so depending on when the batch was picked and the parts used, I vary amounts, but always a small roll up first, just in case. Lol.

I don't mind the taste, but I understand not liking it too, as it is a bit 'pungent' for some, lol.

Mugwort tea with nettle, which you can add to a smoke mix too, is quite good. I like to add mint, or honey for others who like it sweet, but not in the smoke mix, obviously[ haha].

I find these substances have a soporific effect, they help in the slipping between consciousness stages, good for fast tracking liminality if you are in a hurry and sometimes I am. Horses for courses and all that.

Asceticism and self discipline are perfectly valid as Spiritual pathways and processes and no one with sense would deny so, but like all else, it's best promoted positively and it is not the only valid path or process set.

I think fizzy drinks are horribly bad for you too, but I indulge in them with alcohol, from time to time, so I'd be a hypocrite to tell anyone else not to have them.
"He lived his words, spoke his own actions and his story and the story of the world ran parallel."

Sartre speaking of Che Guevara.


"I'm either a fucking genius or a purple Volkswagen Jetta."
- GeriBot


We live in a RAI N B O W of Chaos.

Paul Cezanne

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