Permanent gender change with Magick - continuation.

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Original post: Draginvry
Jenfucius;337145 wrote:As for sex gender change. I'll say your probably going to have more luck with a sex change operation & hormone pills than with magick.
Yeah, I'd definitely have more luck going that route.

But I don't really believe in luck. I believe only in the power of Will.
I repeat what others have said that magick is no quick fix. And your results you want may never materialize in this life time.
I'm perfectly fine if it takes more than one lifetime to figure all this out.

That's why I try to stress that making major changes to the body is difficult. Someone who wants a "quick fix" should not rely solely on my methods, or anything that I propose, because I propose studying and understanding the body for what it is, and understanding how to operate and work with the body as a tool, having complete and utter control of the body and emotions to your whim.

But none of that is necessary to look a certain gender, or to otherwise have yourself or others perceive it as such. Cosmetic surgery can produce those results very quickly, without the owner of the body being operated on having any exceptional knowledge of the body whatsoever, or having to study science or magick at all.

If I was solely interested in "results" then I can promise you that I would have given up my quest many years ago. Actually, when I first started this I gave myself two years to figure this out. After two years and only miniscule progress, I realized that understanding how to operate the body was more important to me than the mere appearance of the body. So I continue my search to this day to have the entire body under subject of Will.

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Original post: kashimashi

uh.... I guest witchcraFt is real .... well i think you wrong dragirv....

i've cast a spell and that works so well....

im now a new members of the female ex ...

i myself couldn't believe it after 1 day i cast the spell
i started to felt different and...

the bext day i started to change slowly gradualy ... first time i was scared because of what happening to me

the proccess take 5 days until it completed and after 6 days i found my self is no longer a boy like i was to be but a complete female completely physicaly......

but im still me ...

i just hope that this would make you nt to underestimate the power of witchcraft

Its.. ReaL....

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Original post: Draginvry

[QUOTE=kashimashi;339977]

the proccess take 5 days until it completed and after 6 days i found my self is no longer a boy like i was to be but a complete female completely physicaly......[/QUOTE]

I would be interested in hearing more detail on the exact methods you used.

I'm still only making very small progress with my own spells. Perhaps you could enlighten me on how to achieve a full transformation in six days. You'd probably save me about ten more years' worth of research.

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Original post: Jenfucius
kashimashi;339977 wrote:uh.... I guest witchcraFt is real .... well i think you wrong dragirv....

i've cast a spell and that works so well....

im now a new members of the female ex ...

i myself couldn't believe it after 1 day i cast the spell
i started to felt different and...

the bext day i started to change slowly gradualy ... first time i was scared because of what happening to me

the proccess take 5 days until it completed and after 6 days i found my self is no longer a boy like i was to be but a complete female completely physicaly......

but im still me ...

i just hope that this would make you nt to underestimate the power of witchcraft

Its.. ReaL....

If this true then you should have no problem showing pictures of the progression of change from a boy to a girl (or from a girl to a boy). Just as well a youtube video documentation of this would be good.

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Original post: Jenfucius
Draginvry;340002 wrote:I would be interested in hearing more detail on the exact methods you used.

..... Perhaps you could enlighten me on how to achieve a full transformation in six days. ......

Honestly I dont think we will ever get an answer from kashimashi.

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Original post: TheCanadian1

any idea what that person could have used...

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Original post: wingman13
any idea what that person could have used...
I think it's safe to say that Kashimashi is either delusional or lying, Canadian.

Most of the observations shown on this thread have suggested that a physical transformation of this magnitude would be extremely difficult, and would take years of study to accomplish. I doubt Kashi could have succeeded this in 6 years, let alone 6 days.

I would be love to be proven wrong, though. Show us some proof, Kashi :)

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Original post: WaydeUltima

So... I don't intend to read every page of this thread (tonight, at least) although I have read the entire first post and various posts throughout. I wanted to ask, has there been any truly useful information given since the first post?

I believe that this transformation is possible, but I have yet to yield any results. Help?

Oh, and there was a post involving both horse urine and an alternative, but since 2004, the site with the alternative is gone, so does anyone know where I could find that?

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Original post: wingman13

[QUOTE=WaydeUltima;345762]So... I don't intend to read every page of this thread (tonight, at least) although I have read the entire first post and various posts throughout. I wanted to ask, has there been any truly useful information given since the first post?

I believe that this transformation is possible, but I have yet to yield any results. Help?

Oh, and there was a post involving both horse urine and an alternative, but since 2004, the site with the alternative is gone, so does anyone know where I could find that?[/QUOTE]

I suggest you read everything Draginvry has said on the subject. It may be a bit disheartening to hear how difficult a transformation of this magnitude would be, but Draginvry's method seems to be the one most in touch with reality. If it was as easy as drinking horse urine, you'd think there would be thousands of women claiming to be men :D

I'm beginning to think the easiest way to accomplish the end result - becoming a woman - would be to conduct a soul transference, not to say that it would be easy, just that it would be way less difficult than an actual transformation.

If you want to learn more about it, either use the search function or look in the astral forums, I think it's still on the first page, although it might be on the second now.

Good luck - you'll need it

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Original post: occulture

While my brain screams out that physical change is best accomplished with physical means (nanotech sounds promising) I really hope someone here achieves their goal and can provide some proof of it! And I would also like to postulate the idea, that even if you do not achieve your goal, the journey should be rewarding and perhaps cathardic anyway.

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Original post: Kath_

horse urine? hehehe
that's the main ingredient in Premarin, a prescription estrogen supplement.

it will not change your gender.
...well not exactly anyway.

Every man and woman have in their cells all of the genetic material needed to produce all of the various traits of either gender. The reason why men are men is because of a sort of domino effect caused by 1 very small gene (*usually* found on the Y chromosome), or for females, that gene's absence. The gene itself doesn't contain any actual coding for reproductive organs or appearance. All of the actual traits of gender are sort of a trickle-down effect of various genes affecting various other genes to the beat of a biological clock, set in motion by a single small gene which itself doesn't really code for any body structures.

It is a common misunderstanding perpetuated by oversimplified high school biology textbooks, that the Y chromosome contains all the 'maleness' genetic traits, or that the X chromosome contains the female traits. It simply does not work like that. It is a single gene which is 'usually' present on the Y chromosome which starts a cascading effect of genes turning on & off (in other chromosomes), eventually resulting in maleness, or in the case of lacking that single gene, femaleness. There are in fact XX males, and XY females. It's quite rare, but its simply caused by the presence of that one gene on an X chromosome instead of a Y. or, by the presence of a Y chromosome which lacks that one gene or has a damaged variant of it. This is not klinefelter's or downs syndrom which is caused by unusual numbers of chromosomes. The only health effect on an XY female or XX male would be a reversal in their respective sex-linked susceptibility to color blindness. But I digress.

Taking hormones which are found in the opposite sex (such as Premarin, harvested from horse urine, or other variants) will turn off and turn on various genes which we all carry for either gender. Effectively it changes your genetic sex, in that hormones activate and shut down most of the genes which code for sex-traits. Some parts of the body are regularly replaced by new tissue, and will see an immediate change in 'gender'. The parts which are less permanent structures are pretty drastically affected by such changes in the hormone balance. Skin is a very good example of this, sufficient estrogen treatment over a number of months would cause the skin of a 'born male' person to become potentially even softer than average for girls (due to higher than average estrogen levels).

But most of the more complex structures which grow and mature as you grow up, will not drastically change. For example, your skeleton isn't going to reshape, no matter what genes are turned on or off. Why? because it's already done developing, it doesn't matter whether you're actively-genetically male or female after the fact. Likewise structures such as a uterus, or a penis will not simply 'change' once they have grown into a particular shape. It has to do with certain features of the body requiring certain time-windows durring which they develop. A part of the body missing such a window is what causes many birth defects.

Tissues themselves are very responsive to simple hormone therapy, and effectively 'change gender' via simple hormonal adjustment. But significant body structures are not so responsive. For example, in a male, estrogen would make the skin soft, would cause body hair to thin out or disappear, make the muscles atrophy, the vestigal mammary tissue (male nipples) would grow and develop into functional breasts, body fat would redistribute, even neural wiring would adjust somewhat, but it would not make a man 'shorter', or have a significant impact on vocal cord thickness, nor would it make a jaw less square, nor will it have a very strong effect on reshaping the genital structures into the opposite sex.

Essentially hormones would get a person 'halfway there', in either direction, from male to female, or female to male. In that it would literally transform their body into the other gender, about halfway. The result being that they would 'currently' be genetically the opposite sex. But they would have many lingering side effects, all a result of having grown up and developed with the other set of genes switched on.

Those who are dead serious about changing their gender, undergo hormone therapy, and then follow up with plastic surgery where necessary to alter the stubborn body structures whose shapes were set in stone at an earlier age, and are unresponsive to gender-shift in activated genes caused by hormone therapy. Voice training and electrolysis would be other additional measures often taken.

The age at which a person would undertake such a venture would have a huge impact on exactly what extent of transformative effect hormone therapy alone would have. Since the younger a person is, the more developmental 'windows' will still be ahead of them. An adolescent on hormone therapy would achieve a 'mostly transformed' result from hormone therapy alone, while a 40 year old would garner much more modest results. It all has to do with the time windows during which the body develops its various structures. And whether you change the body's "active" genetic state prior to those points in time.

I'm not sure what the big deal is about finding a magical method. medical science can do a pretty good job as it is.
http://www.asianoffbeat.com/CoolVideos/ ... rowned.jpg
can you spot the former male?
Of course for anyone seeking to undertake such a venture there would be a lot of $$$$ involved for psychiatrists, endocrinologists, electrologists, surgeons, hospitals, lawyers, etc. Not to mention legal harassment & discrimination, job discrimination, insurance discrimination, a fair amount of literal blood sweat & tears, the electrolysis torture chair, surgical health risks, drug treatment health risks, infertility, temporary or permanent social ostracization, and of course 'family issues'.

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Original post: burnzorz

wouldn't it be much easier and simpler, to use magick to personally accept your gender, and have others around you accept it more too?

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Original post: Draginvry

[QUOTE=WaydeUltima;345762]So... I don't intend to read every page of this thread (tonight, at least) although I have read the entire first post and various posts throughout. I wanted to ask, has there been any truly useful information given since the first post?[/QUOTE]

Not a whole lot. I've been posting in here occasionally about a type of kundalini meditation I've been working on that can most certainly change gender. However, over the course of my research I have noted marked limitations in how the meditation can be used, what can be achieved by it, and the necessary requirements and resources necessary for a full change of the body.

1) It takes an extraordinary amount of energy to make even minor changes to the body.
2) Things like overeating sap energy from the body. Diet must be watched.
3) One must be able to maintain a full image of the body in the mind, even if others are still perceiving you as your born gender.
4) Energy must be channeled to spot locations of the body to affect change. General or "vague" impressions of a different body are insufficient.
5) The perception of the new body must be as concrete as the current body.
6) One must have an incredible knowledge of the current body, and the changes necessary to create a new one.



My advice is to talk to a surgeon. If you want to completely change the body through magick, you are looking at spending huge amounts of time and energy to make changes which aren't even physically visible.

There's a possibility that I may make some major changes to the body over the next several years. But unless I make a major breakthrough, it's not going to happen anytime soon. Changing the body is a 24/7 job which takes incredible amounts of concentration and energy to maintain. If I was anything less than obsessed, I would have crashed and burned years ago.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is a reason that there aren't any confirmed cases, or even that many people working on, changing the body with magick. The reason is that it is a hell of a lot of work. I have been attempting it for 8 years only because gaining complete mastery of the body is my life's mission. If "changing gender" was my only desire, I would have talked to a surgeon a long time ago.

If you must use magick, don't expect changing the body to be easy. You will be sorely disappointed.

The technique itself is simple. All you do is imagine exactly how you want the body to be, and then channel an insanely huge !@#$ amount of energy into it. It sounds nice in theory. But in reality it's like trying to fill an ocean with a water hose. Most people will give up, or die in the attempt. I refuse the former, so the latter is what will happen if I don't succeed. I suppose it's a good thing I plan to succeed, then.

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Original post: Kath_

[QUOTE=Draginvry;346149]The technique itself is simple. All you do is imagine exactly how you want the body to be, and then channel an insanely huge !@#$ amount of energy into it. It sounds nice in theory. But in reality it's like trying to fill an ocean with a water hose. Most people will give up, or die in the attempt. I refuse the former, so the latter is what will happen if I don't succeed. I suppose it's a good thing I plan to succeed, then.[/QUOTE]
and tying the energized self image to the physical body, superimposing one over the other and connecting them together as much as possible. and doing it 'in the first person'.

personally draginvry, I think examining all possible routes to the desired result is not a failure of one's favored route, but instead it's the success of adaptation & problem solving.

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Original post: Draginvry

[QUOTE=Kath_;346156]
personally draginvry, I think examining all possible routes to the desired result is not a failure of one's favored route, but instead it's the success of adaptation & problem solving.[/QUOTE]

I don't really have a favored route, just some that are more effective than others. I can't tell you how many crazy routes I've taken while studying the body. But in my experience, the real creation of the body comes from a simple form of gnosis. With the right knowledge, there is only strength and life in the body. And the more one knows it, the more things become possible.

Such knowledge has eluded me in the past. But everyday I get better at maintaining higher levels of gnosis for longer periods of time. I can only assume that one day, I will be able to generate the energy and knowledge necessary for more than miniscule changes to the body and minor feats of strength.

But I might be underestimating what I already know. Even my "minor" feats of strength turn a few heads. In fact, I've been turning heads like crazy with my parkour over the last week. If I'm already rocking the world that much, I can only imagine how people will react when this gender stuff starts taking off.

The body is just a very complicated machine. Those who have studied it and understand how it works, can use the machine in different ways. It is knowledge, nothing more. Everyday my knowledge increases slightly, such that I can do things now with the body I would have thought impossible three years ago.

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Original post: Kath_

I more meant, that maybe using magic to water the lawn isn't the easiest or best route in this case. I mean considering there's a sprinkler in the toolshed.

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Original post: Draginvry

[QUOTE=Kath_;346226]I more meant, that maybe using magic to water the lawn isn't the easiest or best route in this case. I mean considering there's a sprinkler in the toolshed.[/QUOTE]

But I'm also interested in removing my dependence on sprinklers. That's why I practice things like fasting, parkour, herbertism, etc.

If you use the sprinkler too much, sometimes you become spoiled, and forget that you don't actually need it.

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Original post: WaydeUltima

As well as waste water.

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Original post: Draginvry

[QUOTE=WaydeUltima;346278]As well as waste water.[/QUOTE]

Sprinklers aren't nearly as efficient as people believe.

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Original post: Kath_

I think that's drifting from the intended analogy.

there are ways to 'do' this thread's topic, directly, physically, medically, and then get on with life. All without spending decades learning magick which may or may not ever work for this, and while you learn magic much of your life goes by in a state which is (presumably) unwanted. Its not a complicated choice.

I'm not saying magic is bad, but I am saying that if there's an effective 'direct' way of accomplishing this, then devoting many years seeking a magical route instead, could be seen as 'avoiding success'... living in a state of unresolved approach-avoidance conflict. And yeah, this sort of change necessarily involves a great deal of approach avoidance conflict.

none of which is meant to discourage people from trying to find a magical method for this. I find it an fascinating subject of magical inquiry. I'm just saying, that one shouldn't linger in the hope of a free lunch on gender change, when they can actually go out and do something about it. Particularly when timing (in terms of age) is of the essence in terms of results (see my prior post about genetics hormones & development).

For every 100 who are unhappy in their gender, only a handful will make the sacrifices necessary to overcome all the obstacles. Don't let me kill the thread, or anyone's interest in finding a magickal method of gender change... i'm just saying that anyone who is dead set on it, should seriously consider more direct physical methods, and/or question why they are seeking to change exclusively through a method which does not require immediate concrete sacrifices/investment/effort.

Kath

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Original post: Draginvry

[QUOTE=Kath_;346493]
i'm just saying that anyone who is dead set on it, should seriously consider more direct physical methods, and/or question why they are seeking to change exclusively through a method which does not require immediate concrete sacrifices/investment/effort.[/QUOTE]

I already know the answer to this question for me. It's because I want to know everything there is to know about the body. What it is, what it does, what it is capable of. I still have much research ahead of me. There is much I don't understand.

Also, this project has taken much more investment and sacrifice than if I would have just gone to a doctor, and I still barely have any sort of concrete result. Anyone who thinks that magick is a "free ride" to altering the body, is sorely mistaken. A knife is much, much cheaper. And easier. And quicker. And more consistent.

Actually, magick in general requires sacrifice. Nothing is free. Anyone who thinks otherwise is only avoiding the potential negative consequences of their own actions.

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Original post: Kath_

And that is a choice, neither good nor bad. You're right that magic isn't a free ride, but the vast majority of neophytes view it as such.

I'm more concerned with others being encouraged to delay the inevitable, look for an 'easy way'... while the clock ticks off years, earning only mounting difficulty, increased suffering, and a poorer result.

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Original post: Draginvry

[QUOTE=Kath_;346665]
I'm more concerned with others being encouraged to delay the inevitable, look for an 'easy way'... while the clock ticks off years, earning only mounting difficulty, increased suffering, and a poorer result.[/QUOTE]

People are going to look for a free ride regardless. Either from me, or from someone else. I've stopped trying to halt the stupidity of this world. I'll let them learn through experience.

Consider the amount of people who would rather try taking a pill to lose weight, versus those who are willing to exercise one hour each day? Yeah, I think you get the point.

Plus, with gender there's no easy way regardless. You're kind of damned if you do, and damned if you don't. That's another reason I'm not in any rush to obtain results. It's not really going to make my life easier if I suddenly start achieving success with pronounced changes to the appearance of the body. In fact, according to my calculations, life will actually become more difficult.

The good news is that I did achieve some huge energy levels this morning in my meditation. But I lost it after about ten minutes, which wasn't really long enough to do anything with it. I think I've learned enough for today. I might just take it easy for tonight. I figure if my knowledge increases each day, I'll eventually hit payday.

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Original post: Kath_

well a nazi once said "better to be damned for something you did do, than for something you failed to do"
which at times I strongly disagree with. in goering's case he was trying to justify horrific crimes.
but in some situations I do agree with the quote.
it seems pretty situational and relativistic.
on this subject, I'd tend to mostly agree.
_

I think one can be overly focused on how to make life easier. easier for whom? employers? family? friends? governments?

"to thine own self be true" is really bad advice in terms of how to make life easier. But I don't think its bad advice in the bigger picture. Easier is not necessarily better. A lack of success in gender transformation is 'easier', but is it better? It depends on you, your motivations, your situation, your needs. But it IS necessarily better, I think, to be consciously aware of decisions, such as one to temper progress in order to avoid difficulties.
_

and yeah, the masses will flock to the latest snake oil which will supposedly make them lose weight without exercise. yes its inevitable. Personally I won't be one to sell the snake oil though.

really my whole point is that I'm encouraging people to either exercise (take difficult & direct measures to fix things), or learn to be happy being fat (make peace with not taking action), and to avoid betting on snake oils to resolve their problem (trying things which likely won't work, but don't require serious sacrifice or investment).

anyway, it needn't be 'either/or'. A person can take proven difficult steps to directly deal with their problem... and still experiment with unproven highly improbable methods on the side. I mean a snake oil *could* work, and if anyone found one that did, hey that'd be a really awesome breakthrough... the exploration itself is interesting, but I wouldn't hold my breath in anticipation of miraculous results from snake oils.
_

If someone is deadly serious about fixing gender dysphoria, they'd be wise not to leave 'any' stone unturned. As a transsexual friend of mine once said "You can't do something like this *and* care what other people think"

If someone's not deadly serious about resolving gender dysphoria, well that's another matter entirely. If a person is just 'interested' or 'pretty serious' or 'curious' then dabble away.

Just don't be deadly serious about it, but only dabble.

it costs time, and you'll never get it back. the measures one can take to change one's gender medically are time sensitive in terms of results (or at least the hormonal aspect is, as it affects genetic expression, which in turn follows a clock).

there's already ways to change one's gender. its not a mystery. its just really hard, socially, financially, and physically. either that's an acceptable trade-off or not. any other method is a hope for something easier or possibly better. But its a lottery ticket sort of hope. You don't drop out of college to play lotto. Not if you're serious and determined to have money. If money isn't that important to you, then sure, drop college, play lotto, do whatever IS important to you. If gender change is really really important to you though, then be damned for doing it.

Kath

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Original post: Draginvry
Kath_;347179 wrote: But it IS necessarily better, I think, to be consciously aware of decisions, such as one to temper progress in order to avoid difficulties.
It's not really about results, or even progress for me. It is about the means, the exact method. I want to know that my knowledge is complete. When the knowledge is incomplete, I refine my theory.

If an obsession is blocking my acquisition of knowledge, I will meditate until I am in the correct state of mind to observe simply. It's all about knowledge. Certainly I could use a method to gain results in the course of only a few years, in fact I almost chose to do that when I started this project.

It's not so much a matter of my practicing a theory to change gender. I practice everything. My meditation, parkour, magick, even how and when I play computer games are all related to a larger paradigm. In this paradigm, there is no attachment to results. There is only what is learned from the attempt. And what is learned from the attempt, determines one's next attempt.

I could have taken a different route and completely changed the body or behavior or appearance. It wouldn't even have been that hard, compared to the things that I have done such as extensive fasting and meditation. But where would I be then? I would be someone who appears more female. But I would not have my knowledge of logic or science. I would not have studied parkour. I would still be addicted to food, not having experimented with fasting. I would still think things like money or social status is important.

I've lost nothing, and gained everything. The only thing I've lost is the results from taking more traditional methods. So maybe my method hasn't produced many results related to changing the sex of the body. But I wouldn't trade any of my current knowledge for even having a born female body.
If someone is deadly serious about fixing gender dysphoria, they'd be wise not to leave 'any' stone unturned. As a transsexual friend of mine once said "You can't do something like this *and* care what other people think"

Just don't be deadly serious about it, but only dabble.
I don't care what other people think. You talk about dysphoria. You talk about time. But these are merely obsessions. I have given up obsession, which is why I can make time for what I do. You think I'm dabbling in changing the body? You want to know how much I've sacrificed for my research?

But for everything I've sacrificed, I've increased my knowledge of the body. I know things few people will know. I've done things few people will do. Not many people will water fast for twenty one days. Not many people will dry fast for a week. Not many people will meditate on a hilltop. But I have done these things, and for having done these things I have gained a greater knowledge of the body. And I tell you now, the body is much less limited than people believe it to be.

If it takes years to recreate the body, so be it. My research has brought me much more experience and capabilities than I ever imagined possible. I've only scratched the surface of what the body is truly capable of.

If someone wants results rather than knowledge, give them the hormones. Give them the snake oil. But I will settle for no less than real knowledge of what the body is, what the body does. I will discover how much the body can be changed with this meditation. I present this merely as information. What one does with the information, is their choice.

I merely present information. Those who don't want to know, will refuse to believe. Those who don't want to accept, will make an excuse not to use the information. Those who truly want to know, will test it out for themselves to see if it works. It is not my duty to censor that information, or try to doctor it up to make it look like something that it really isn't. If someone wants to know what the body does if you stop consuming food and water, I will tell them what it does. And if they want to attempt a dry fast, that is their business. If that makes me insensitive or immoral, then so be it. I talk about parkour the same way. I tell people what I am doing, what I've done, and what I did to get there. I present that information, knowing full well that many people will injure themselves from foolishly taking drops and vaults they aren't prepared for. But it's not my job to babysit the world. Everyone is going to do exactly what they intend to do. And there's nothing wrong with that, even if they do end up hurting themselves or wasting their time.

I'm not selling snake oil. If someone wants to perceive my information as snake oil, that is their choice. I've said outright that changing the body isn't easy. I've stated specifically that meditation can be dangerous. Some people mocked me. But I know the results I have and have not achieved. I know the things I can and cannot do. I know the intentional changes I have made to the body, and the unintentional injury caused by taking foolish risks.

Knowledge is equated with risk, actually. You can't gain knowledge without stepping into the unknown. And I am in very unknown territory with my experiments. That's why I give myself time to take a break. There's no point in making major changes to the body if I kill myself in the process. When I can maintain this gnosis throughout the day, I have no doubt that the results will come. But learning how to use this meditation is far from easy. In fact, "rushing" to get it done is non-sequitur to my purpose.

Thinking about time in general is a bad idea. The only that exists is now. What happens when you spend lots of time preparing for something, and it doesn't turn out like you expected it to? I'd rather focus on gaining my knowledge now, and doing things properly, rather than grasping for results that probably won't turn out like I expect them to.

One of my main tenets in life is that you get out of life what you put into it. If you are looking for something cheap, you get cheap results. If you are looking for fast results, you get something rushed. If you are looking for easy work, you end up getting something only half-finished.

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