Quidgyboo06-21-2004, 08:19 PM
We have a lot of threads here on various subjects but as far as I can see, there is no place a newbie can go and say "Ah ha! That's what Witchcraft is". So bearing that in mind, how do you define Witchcraft?
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PaulS06-21-2004, 08:51 PM
Witchcraft is simply the practice of the craft of the witch's magik.
It is the use of energy through your will, under intent, directed at modifying the universe or part of it.
PaulS
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The Rose06-22-2004, 01:02 AM
I agree with paul. When you do a spell all you are doing is gathering the energy in and around you and directing it to do something therefor witchcraft is a witch practicing the craft which the craft is magick which is basicly what paul said.
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Phoenixfire06-22-2004, 10:25 AM
also, if i may point out, i've heard several different definitions of "witch", depending on each person's opinion/ how its punctuated (eg. witch or Witch). i thought it may be an idea to clarify things in this thread about that too, it seems an apropriate place.
so i was wondering, to you, what is your definition of a witch/Witch?
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jools06-22-2004, 12:38 PM
If you get 30 witches together and ask them what they think witchcraft is you will get 42 different definitions! But PaulS is the closest-its the craft of the witch.
j xxx
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Rin Daemoko06-22-2004, 06:17 PM
Witch: One who practices Witchcraft
Withcraft: The craft of Witches
The Craft of Witches: magick, divination, meditation, et cetera ...
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PaulS06-22-2004, 06:38 PM
also, if i may point out, i've heard several different definitions of "witch", depending on each person's opinion/ how its punctuated (eg. witch or Witch). i thought it may be an idea to clarify things in this thread about that too, it seems an apropriate place.
so i was wondering, to you, what is your definition of a witch/Witch?
Phoenixfire,
There used to be a phrase that was used by a couple of the Wiccan traditions that went like this:
". . . not all Wiccans are witches but all witches are Wiccan."
A good friend of mine (who has since passed over) told me that when our friendship was quite young and I laughed at him. At the time I had been practicing magik for more than a few years as a third degree and he had assumed that I was Wiccan. When I told him I wasn't even close to Wiccan and we began discussing the different groups that were witches that were not Wiccan he had to finally give in.
It may be that what you are talking about is a left-over from years gone by. A witch (Witch) is anyone who practices magik with intent.
PaulS
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Rin Daemoko06-22-2004, 07:57 PM
". . . not all Wiccans are witches but all witches are Wiccan.I've never been a fan of this axom, as it implies that if you are a Witch, then you must be Wiccan. Resistence is futile. My religion is Tibetan Buddhism, and I am a Witch.
"Not all Wiccans are Witches, and not all Witches are Wiccan."
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Quidgyboo06-23-2004, 05:07 AM
Ok I accept all of your definitions so far, but what makes Witchcraft a different form of Magick Compared to, say, Ceremonial Magick? Both work with energy but they use differing methods, but what methods are a Witch's? What defines a Magick user as a Witch and not a Magickian - that is what I am asking about? I should have clarified at the beginning.
BTW I do have my own opinions on this subject, but I thought it would be a nice topic to generate discussion and as a resource for us all.
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Rin Daemoko06-23-2004, 06:10 PM
Well, it would seem that Witchcraft is more inclined to use stones, herbs, oils, and sympathetic magick than Ceremonial Magicians would. It's more down-to-earth than other magickal paths.
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PaulS06-23-2004, 07:30 PM
The magik is the same. The way it is performed and focused is different.
I am going to jump into a big hole here and I fully expect to be "corrected" by all ceremonialists who see this note - it is OK because I am posting the following as an outside observer offering an opinion based only on my interpretation of my experiences.
Ceremonialists use the ceremony in all its intricate and exacting parts, the attire, the movement, the sounds, colors and smells to hold their magikal potential (if you inscribe a pentagram in the wrong way the cermony won't work). (btw, ceremonialists are witches too, though they would hate to be called that.)
Witches (the kind that are not ceremonialists) use their mind and intent to hold the magikal potential. They might dance or chant or sing to build the energy in the same ritual at different times - they are less rigid, and tend to be a bit adaptive where magik is concerned.
PaulS
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Akasha06-23-2004, 07:38 PM
Yes, I'd agree with that PaulS. I'd even define Witchcraft as an "umbrella heading", under which there are different branches, such as Wicca and CM ~ each more structured and formalised in their practices, but still related to Witchcraft.
Let the beheading begin!
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Phoenixfire06-24-2004, 05:13 PM
". . . not all Wiccans are witches but all witches are Wiccan."
lol i never heard that one, i've always known that not all witches are Wiccan and not all Wiccans are witches. if anything i would've thought it would be the other way round when people got confused, but i guess even some people can be that ignorant.
i've seen a few different definitions on 'witch', one being the most simple - a practitioner of witchcraft. another is that someone has the 'heart' of a witch when they are in touch with all that is around them, but also knows how to look inside themselves and see who they truely are, and as such can incorperate the powers that this knowledge brings into their daily lives. or something along those lines.
although i try to go along with the simple definition mainly, as it is the most blindingly obvious to be true, i also like to think of the latter as true as it sort of gives me something to aspire to. over the past few years of studying and practicing the craft, it is only recently that i can see that when i first started practicing, i wasnt a true witch. i had much to learn and experience, and i'm still learning every day. its certainly true that the more you learn, the more you realise you know nothing.
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bgruagach06-24-2004, 10:02 PM
". . . not all Wiccans are witches but all witches are Wiccan."
I've always heard this saying the other way around:
"Not all witches are Wiccans, but all Wiccans are witches."
But there are some Wiccans these days who say they aren't witches. (I tend to think that's missing a large part of the point of Wicca: Gerald Gardner's books were called "Witchcraft Today" and "The Meaning of Witchcraft" after all.)
I see Wicca as a religious system based originally on the ideas spread by Gerald Gardner, a magickal spiritual worldview that draws heavily from pagan ideas and the lore of witchcraft. Witchcraft, on the other hand, is basically what others have already said: it's the practice of magickal skills.
I tend to think of witchcraft as more practical and down-to-earth when compared with ceremonial magick. Ceremonial work, it seems from most of my reading, is predominantly focussed on the "Great Work" while witchcraft magick is about getting results for whatever needs the witch has, no matter how mundane.
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Anubis RainHawk06-26-2004, 10:51 PM
Wicca and Witchcraft are different things, depending on who you ask.
Wicca is a spiritual path (religion). Some would say Wicca is the relgion of Witches. Some say Wicca is modern Witchcraft. Still others say that Wicca and Witchcraft are 2 different things.
Witchcraft can also be considered a spiritual path. I consider it my path. Many would use the terms Wicca and Witchcraft interchangibly, though it doesn't apply to everyone. I call my path Witchcraft because that's what resonates with me. I claim the word. Others do not, possibly calling themselves Wiccans.
It all depends on who you ask. I feel that both Witchcraft and Wicca can descripe my path.
Anubis RainHawk
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Quidgyboo07-07-2004, 12:13 AM
Wicca and Witchcraft are different things, depending on who you ask.
Wicca is a spiritual path (religion). Some would say Wicca is the relgion of Witches. Some say Wicca is modern Witchcraft. Still others say that Wicca and Witchcraft are 2 different things.
Witchcraft can also be considered a spiritual path. I consider it my path. Many would use the terms Wicca and Witchcraft interchangibly, though it doesn't apply to everyone. I call my path Witchcraft because that's what resonates with me. I claim the word. Others do not, possibly calling themselves Wiccans.
It all depends on who you ask. I feel that both Witchcraft and Wicca can descripe my path.
Anubis RainHawkThat's a really sensible way of looking at things; I like you already. Common sense is a trait I love most in people. I don't even mind when they fly in the face of common sense - something I often do - so long as they know that's what they are doing.
Personally I do not use Wicca to describe my path simply to avoid confusion. Actually, I rarely use Witch to describe anything more than the system of magick I adhere to. *Scratches head* I don't have a word for my actual spiritual path.
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Blue Starthief07-07-2004, 12:40 PM
What is the difference between a witch and a mage?
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Hangatyr 1307-07-2004, 10:17 PM
I don't see "witchcraft" as a synonym for "magick" nor do I see witchcraft as a religion. I see it as a magickal paradigm. Wiccans use it, ecclectic pagans use it, satanists use it, even some christians and atheists use it. I personally am asatru and I consider myself to be a witch because witchcraft is part of the way I do magick. As a paradigm, it seems similar to shamanism. Infact, in Asatru, both shamanism and witchcraft are kind of clumped together into what is called "Seidh". Witchcraft, like shamanism, draws it's magick from the natural world. It uses stones, herbs, and animals, but in a less primative, more analitical way. In this way, (analisis of corespondences) it is similar to ceremonial magick. It also sometimes uses astrolgy, color and planetary corresondences, and ritual stuctures that are similar to ceremonial magick. It is more likely to be performed in groups than either shamanism of ceremonial magick. There goes my humble opinion.
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Grey Magician07-08-2004, 12:38 PM
Im with Blue StarTheif. What is the difference between a witch and a mage? For that matter what is the difference between a witch, mage, wizard, sourceror or whatever title that magic pertains that is out there. All of these title's of course are for a practicioner of magic, but what defines them. I would say it is there system's. For example witchcraft is a tradition that incorporate's gods and goddess and deity's and some witche's ask these higher powers so to speak to come and help them in their spells etc. But then there are the other 3 title's that really all they do is just do magic. So where does one fit?
Ill just stick to being a magical practicioner because i have no system, i just raise energy, do spells among other things but there you go. So what title would you Paul S or any OF memeber give one that doesn't have a particular system and just does the same as i do.
I think it all boils down to what you want to be called. But since the question was brought up here i think we should give a specific answer to it.
Sincerely,
Grey Magician
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wzdrylmaster07-08-2004, 01:25 PM
for the natural and the energy seeking
http://groups.msn.com/TheWitchesHours
for the dedicated to the old and the self charging and ready to coven
http://groups.msn.com/theroot
for the night teachers and the ones who live with the witches darker natures
http://groups.msn.com/Covenofthenightflower
and for the one who wish they knew where to go and why...
http://groups.msn.com/Grimoreofwitchcraft
Take your pick...........(or forever be in the wiccan book line...)
Wizardluxas
"the greatest secret your ever going to know is, Well"
you tell me......
or is it when you learn to learn and not to guess?
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Grey Magician07-11-2004, 01:35 AM
Wow can noone here at the might OF give an clear opinion to what they think the difference is between a mage and a witch for that matter a sourceror and a wizard as well. If this is true this is truly a dark day here at Occult Forums.
Sincerely,
GM
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Hangatyr 1307-11-2004, 07:31 AM
Clear definition? Okay.
Witchcraft: a magickal paradigm that can easily be practiced solitarily or in groups and utilizes correspondences within the natural world for the purposes of divination or to cause physical change in the world.
That's about the most clear, simple definition that I can come up with. To elaborate, I think that witchcraft differs from cerimonial magick in that it relys more on nature and utilizes herbs, stones, and animals whereas cerimonial magick seems to be more purely mental relying on complicated angelic correspondences and mystic languages such as enochian. Also witchcraft seems to be more about emotion while cerimonial magick seems to be more about form. It differs from shamanism by it's more social tendencies and more formuliac approach to the natural world.
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martin07-11-2004, 08:30 AM
"Wow can noone here at the might OF give an clear opinion to what they think the difference is between a mage and a witch for that matter a sourceror and a wizard as well. If this is true this is truly a dark day here at Occult Forums."
Maybe a better question is why it should matter, is it really that important? As most of them are words that have been appropriated from various cultures by modern practitioners (many from derogatory terms) in an attempt to try and describe aspects of their path you'll have a hard time finding any definitive definition. I find it slightly more worrying that there are so many posts trying to define one thing or another instead of actually getting on with the practicalities.
FFFF
Martin
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Grey Magician07-11-2004, 11:24 PM
Sorry Martin but the whole reason we have these forums is to answer questions, and if you don't find it that important then don't reply. I don't want to come off as a a** hole but it was a simple question. How do you differentiate between the various names in magic, witch, sourceror, wizard and mage. They are all title's yes but can you say they are all the same kind of practicioner.
Sincerely,
GM
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martin07-12-2004, 03:05 AM
"Sorry Martin but the whole reason we have these forums is to answer questions, and if you don't find it that important then don't reply. I don't want to come off as a a** hole but it was a simple question."
The reason why I felt so moved to write a reply was to answer your insinuation that no-one here could answer the question, making the point that maybe people didn't feel the need to spend time endlessly defining one thing or another. How many times have we seen the "define a witch" thread in one form or another, indeed I believe it is even in the beginners forum in two guises.
But back on topic, as I said, because the terms have been reclaimed (arguably)/applied to many modern traditions at a later date, often having originally been used as a catch-all term for one who works "magic", there is no real definitive answer, ergo the question is defunct.
FFFF
Martin
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Quidgyboo07-12-2004, 08:48 PM
"Sorry Martin but the whole reason we have these forums is to answer questions, and if you don't find it that important then don't reply. I don't want to come off as a a** hole but it was a simple question."
The reason why I felt so moved to write a reply was to answer your insinuation that no-one here could answer the question, making the point that maybe people didn't feel the need to spend time endlessly defining one thing or another. How many times have we seen the "define a witch" thread in one form or another, indeed I believe it is even in the beginners forum in two guises.
But back on topic, as I said, because the terms have been reclaimed (arguably)/applied to many modern traditions at a later date, often having originally been used as a catch-all term for one who works "magic", there is no real definitive answer, ergo the question is defunct.
FFFF
Martin
I have to disagree with you. Yes there have been many attempts to define magick but they have all been, as far as I have seen, shallow attempts to reword broad definitions set down by Crowley and the like. What I intended with this thread is to find a clearer more precise definition of Witchcraft as a system on its own and through doing so possibly gain a more detailed definition of magick.
It does not matter that we each have our own definitions; if we didn't have opinions then these boards would be rather dull and useless.
As for the usefulness of labels at all: well, it's something to discuss. We can't be summoning up beasties and burying Witch Bottles around our homes ALL the time :lol:
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Demonchild_Angel07-12-2004, 10:11 PM
DESCRIPTION OF THE WORD WITCH
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English wicche, from Old English wicca, masculine, wizard & wicce, feminine, witch; akin to Middle High German wicken to bewitch, Old English wigle divination, and perhaps to Old High German wIh holy
1 : one that is credited with usually malignant supernatural powers; especially : a woman practicing usually black WITCHCRAFT often with the aid of a spirit or familiar : SORCERESS / WARLOCK
2 : an ugly old woman : HAG
3 : a charming or alluring girl or woman
4 : a practitioner of Wicca
DESCRIPTION OF WITCHCRAFT
Pronunciation: 'wich-"kraft
Function: noun
1 a : the use of sorcery or magic b : communication with the spirits or with a familiar
2 : an irresistible influence or fascination
3 : WICCA Pronunciation: 'wi-ka
Function: noun Etymology: probably from Old English wicca wizard -- see WITCH above : a religion influenced by pre-Christian beliefs and practices of western Europe that affirms the existence of supernatural power (as magic) and of both male and female deities who inhere in nature, and that emphasizes ritual observance of seasonal and life cycles
HAG
Pronunciation: 'hag
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English hagge demon, old woman
1 : an ugly, slatternly, or evil-looking old woman
2 archaic a : a female demon b : an evil or frightening spirit : HOBGOBLIN
3 : WITCH see above
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Grey Magician07-13-2004, 03:20 AM
k sorry i didn't clarify but i mean't what do you guy's think about the definitions of the many name's that practicioners of magic are called. Not what webster's say's. So what do you guy's think a sourceror, wizard, witch and mage mean and how do you differentiate between them.
Sincerely,
GM
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fiat_lux_77707-13-2004, 04:04 AM
93
Okay, here's my definition of Witchcraft and Wicca -
1. Wicca - a pantheistic religion popularised (some say founded) by Gerald Gardner, based on older remnants of folk magic and Neolithic Pagan religions. Embraces a magickal worldview, and has at its core the tenet of both immanence and transcendance of deity (both masculine and feminine) and animism. Structured but decentralised, it also incorporates elements of Freemasonry and Ceremonial magick in its workings.
2. Witchcraft - a craft, not a religion (i.e. one can be a Witch without being Wiccan, or indeed Pagan). Generally characterised as being "low" magick, which is not a quality determination, but rather a differentation between "High" magick, which has as its avowed aim the union of the individual with the Ultimate Source, God, or whatever term you prefer. "Low" magick tends to be "results-based" magick i.e. Sorcery. The dichotomy between Witchcraft and Ceremonial Magick seems to be (originally) purely socio-economical - the more affluent practicing Ceremonial, the poorer utilising materials more easily obtained with limited means such as natural materials.
The magik is the same. The way it is performed and focused is different.
I am going to jump into a big hole here and I fully expect to be "corrected" by all ceremonialists who see this note
Ceremonialists use the ceremony in all its intricate and exacting parts, the attire, the movement, the sounds, colors and smells to hold their magikal potential (if you inscribe a pentagram in the wrong way the cermony won't work). (btw, ceremonialists are witches too, though they would hate to be called that.)
Witches (the kind that are not ceremonialists) use their mind and intent to hold the magikal potential. They might dance or chant or sing to build the energy in the same ritual at different times - they are less rigid, and tend to be a bit adaptive where magik is concerned.
PaulS
Actually Paul, I tend to agree with you. Although I wouldn't call myself a Witch, I can understand how others may apply that appellation to me.
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