Witchcraft vs Magick

[DawningSun777]

What exactly separates witchcraft from the umbrella term of magick? I always saw "witchcraft" as a more new-agey, lightened up synonym for magick.

[Ramscha]

First it might be interesting to define both a little bit for this threat since there are many opinions and definitions going around for both terms.
For myself I don´t seperate witchcraft from magick, it is simply one way to practice. The some of the new age aspects you mentioned I simply count to "nonsense" for myself (not necessarily the truth for others of course).

World is subjective (from my subjective eyes), so such an approach simply seems logickal to me.

Ramscha

PS: Logic also don´t has to be necessarily be true. [yay]

Ramscha

[DawningSun777]

Haha backup! Logic does indeed have to be true, it can simply be used incorrectly.

[Ramscha]

Well, I guess I also have to define logic first (not necessarily be the truth for others) for the sentence I used it in.
I used it in colloquial context, as synonym for common sense or what Thorwald Detlefsen describes as "horizontal thinking". So out of logic would be in that case "vertical thinking". Indeed logic is not necessarily logic. An ancient greek might would understand something else under the term "logos" then you would.

Reduced on maths logic would indeed be true in all cases, at least as long as it is defined through a closed system (natural scientific approach on the matter) and parameter. Maths without parameter is unlogical in theory [crazy]

Ramscha

PS: If that goes on half of my future posts will consist of definitions about the terms I will use.... I guess if that happens I will start writing in the runes of the old Futhark.

Ramscha

[Nahemah]

I always saw "witchcraft" as a more new-agey, lightened up synonym for magick.

Why?

Please elcucidate further and clarify what your definitons for these terms are, DawningSun.

Contextual understanding is important here.

Witchcraft is the practice of sympathetic magicks which utilise the principles of contagion and imitation primarily,but it also encompasses certain Shamanic techniques such as trancing and use of entheogens,along with particular localised folk customs,cultural specific traditions,high days,hoy days and rituals which dominate the society where it is practised.

But,Wicca is a Neopagan religion,loosely rifled from Celtic and Norse culture and folklore mixed up with Ceremonialism from the WMT and as such,it has been somewhat misrepresented by it's dilution with Nu Age concepts from the promotion of self realised eclectic and solitary Wicca derivations.

Maybe you are somewhat conflating the two?


Magick is a broader term and as Ramscha said,Witchcraft is one form of magickal practice,while for instance :Theurgy and Thaumaturgy are others.


Anyway,Why the either/or dichotomy?

If that goes on half of my future posts will consist of definitions about the terms I will use.... I guess if that happens I will start writing in the runes of the old Futhark.

Ramscha

I could read that just fine mate. [thumbup] It'd be quite cool,but you shouldn't need to pre define everything.

Getting bogged down in semantics early on,tends to diminish reasonable discussion and can lead to absurd reductionism in the end, if it rattles on too long.

Lets not do that. [thumbup]

[DawningSun777]

So define / describe "sympathetic" magick.

[Nahemah]

Already did,lol.

But here it is again anyway...

...sympathetic magicks: which utilise the principles of contagion and imitation primarily,

Should've had punctuation there though,my bad.

This above statement as originally posted,is in relation to Witchcraft.Context again.

The principle or 'law' of similarity is another name for that of imitation [poppet magick ,for instance...] and the principle of association is there too,but I didn't previously mention that,though I probably should have.

http://deoxy.org/lawsofmagic.htm

http://www.themystica.org/mystica/artic ... magic.html

The LAW OF SIMILARITY
Having an accurate physical or mental representation of something facilitates control over it. This one is fairly obvious in its usage—having a model, picture, or other representation of your target (like a voodoo doll) gives you power to effect the target. Look alikes are alike.

The LAW OF CONTAGION
Objects or beings in physical contact with each other continue to interact after separation. Everyone you have ever touched has a magical link with you, though it is probably pretty weak unless the contact was intense and/or prolonged or repeated frequently. Magical power is contagious. Naturally, having a part of someone's body (nails, hair, spit, etc.) gives the best contagion link.

It is you who proposed Magick and Witchcraft oppose each other in the title,but then you asked a question in the post,which Ramscha and I answered,each according to our own perspectives on the matter.

What exactly separates witchcraft from the umbrella term of magick?

We both agreed that Witchcraft is not separate from Magick,but that it is a part of Magick,where Magick is a greater,overarching meta paradigm.

If you want to debate whether Witchcraft is a valid magickal paradigm,then you framed your post badly and you should explain what the intent of this thread actually is,so we know how to respond.

it would be appropriate for you to explain what you think the definition of Witchcraft is,as we have done so for you and/or why it is ,or is not a valid magickal paradigm.It's your argument to define/defend.

[DawningSun777]

I don't have an argument, I'm not debating anything. The context I always heard "witchcraft" used in tended to be in a new-agey, stereotypical tree huggy way. In other cases, less common, witchcraft came with ideas such as lunar magic, color magic, a lot that was mentioned here.

I guess witchcraft was the supernatural school and magick was the psychological school (I'm understanding this as I type). Being a part of a strong LHP community on another forum for many years, witchcraft was always talked about in a belittling way, not really sure why!

[thestudyingalchemist]

Well witchcraft is magick, it is just another name that is use a lot by the christians that's more "stereotypical" but... Yeah I think that magick is better to use than witchcraft but yeah it is the same to me. (I'm maybe wrong I don't know) Maybe witchcraft is more specific and is more associate to satanism and magick to the whole different magick that exist in the world depending on the religions/cult; so magick is more general to me and witchcraft is more use for satanism but like I said before the term in itself is very stereotypical.

[Bara Mortath]

Squares and rectangles. Magic is the overarching term witchcraft is one way of practicing magic, in my most common usage of the term (as this seems to have descended in to quibbling about personal definitions).

Witchcraft can also be used as a religious term (most commonly by wiccans, which is why you may have herd it in a pejorative way if you're comming from the deep dark recesses of the far left hand path) and as a term for "low" magic (another reason you my have heard it belittled, if there were a lot of ceremonial magicians at this other forum)

[autodydact]

I've always linked the two terms to the spiritual beliefs of the people who use them. I.e- People who refer to their work as witchcraft are usually from a pagan path, whilst Magick is more popular with ceremonial magicians and the corresponding religious groups. In actual practice I suppose there is very little difference. I tend to think of witchcraft as a far more earth based practice. A witch is far more likely to acknowledge abnormalities or phenomena in nature as omens of some form or other, whilst a ceremonial magician will more likely rely on other forms of divination (although we all know witches aren't adverse to skrying etc.)

As I think has been mentioned before, witchcraft tends to focus heavily on the left hand path, only using right hand path magic in extreme circumstances (although, I'm sure there are examples to the contrary). From my reading I would suggest that possibly ceremonial magicians are more even, using whichever path best suits them.

Another difference is the whole circle thing... When summoning forces, the witch (or certainly the wiccan) will welcome them into the circle, whereas my understanding of ceremonial magick is that you want to keep everything outside the circle at all costs. There are lots of wiccan authors who are very quick to compare the ceremonial magician to some kind of lion tamer, entertaining themselves by fending off greater force than themselves with a chair and a bullwhip. I'm certainly not going to make any such statements and know that many other witchcraft paths are far more open, but it's a worthwhile point in this comparison.

I guess that's it? I've read a far bit on ceremonial magick, but never taken the plunge and tried it out. It interests me, but as a subject of study... I think it is a personality thing. I'm a tree hugging pagan from celtic stock and witchcraft just appeals more to me personally. As has been said many times on these forums: the magick that works for one practitioner could be less than useless to another.

[RoseRed]

Witchcraft is the Craft of practicing magic.

Long before Llewelyn Publishing and Gerald Gardner founded Wicca - witches practiced magic without all the love and light that seems to have been thrust upon this generation. With all the Neo-Wiccanesque fluffy bunnies running around - they have made the term witchcraft more acceptable in modern society. Works for me. For centuries (or millenia) witches were feared - for good reason. They answer to themselves.

Ceremonial Magick is considered to be High Magick. Rituals, tools, summoning angels and demons and spirits to do your bidding. Things like that.

The Craft is usually considered Low Magic. The down and dirty, getting your hands in it kind of magic.

The biggest difference between the two is just the type of magics that are practiced.

Sure, some witches are theurgists, some worship gods or fallen angels or even dirt. Others work with the power within themselves.

[Rin]

I've always seen witchcraft as a subset of magic which is typically utilized for material goals, using relatively cheap and easily obtained ingredients (historically those available in a rural or agricultural setting) in formal but relatively basic workings ("spells") which are generally practiced without a backbone of extensive psycho-spiritual development.

[sonko]

What exactly separates witchcraft from the umbrella term of magick? I always saw "witchcraft" as a more new-agey, lightened up synonym for magick.

Witchcraft is another way of practicing magic because magic is huge with many ways of practicing it. In simple way, take magic as food and rice, potatoes, maize etc falls under food category but with different taste different ways of preparing them etc. In that way, that is how witchcraft falls under magic.

[thestudyingalchemist]

What exactly separates witchcraft from the umbrella term of magick? I always saw "witchcraft" as a more new-agey, lightened up synonym for magick.

Witchcraft is another way of practicing magic because magic is huge with many ways of practicing it. In simple way, take magic as food and rice, potatoes, maize etc falls under food category but with different taste different ways of preparing them etc. In that way, that is how witchcraft falls under magic.

I agree it is simply a more specific way of practicing magick. Just as water is part of the liquids but liquids are not neccesserally water.