Real, literal, shapeshifting.

[dancing-with-dragons]

I'm not talking about shamanic, spiritual shape shifting. I'm talking about physically, literally, taking on the form of an animal.
In Carlos Casteneda's books, a sorceress attempts to attack Don Juan in the form of a crow.
In my own family history, My grandfather was a pastor in Pennsylvania and often came across incidents of hexing and witchcraft (The dark side of the occult, I suppose).
On one account, a woman who was a witch, took on the form of a cat, and visited the house of one of her enemies. The victim pushed the cat out of the window, and it fell from the second story. The woman, when seen again in her original form, had a broken leg after the incident.

I believe that in castenedas account, the sorceress suffered harm to her physical body when receiving harm on her "crow" body. From the way Don Juan talked, such practices were common among the old sorcerers of the world.

What are your thoughts? Real, or not?

Thanks

[DawningSun777]

When will people stop mixing up the psychology that is occultism and the fiction that is Harry Potter?

[Asurendra]

There is no such thing. It would take definitive evidence to convince me otherwise. I say this even though I do accept the Holographic Model of the the Universe. This is a phenomenon of mental & astral projectio

BTW, Carlos Castaneda's material is not always 'real' and literal. This subject is explored other places on the Forum.

[Moon Sage]

In a word....NO.

To physically injure the witch in shapeshifter form, would be like slapping a ghost upside the face & giving the corpse a black eye....just sayin. [crazy]

[Nahemah]

...incidents of hexing and witchcraft (The dark side of the occult, I suppose).

Lulwot?

So hexing and witchcraft are the 'dark' side of the Occult?

Only for someone raised in fear and superstition about things they neither know of or understand,based on misconceptions,false evidences and lies used during a time of political and social turmoil to keep Social and Religious dissenters in line. [thumbup]

It's important to sort out the lies from the fakelore.

Ans for those who fear hexing:

if you get attacked you defend yourself and this is is true of all walks of life,whether your defence is by necessity perhaps physical,or verbal or whether by route of law or other offically recognised sanction and so on...

so why is magickal defence or attack,for that matter,looked on so heinously by so many Christians,Neopagans and those of similar ilk?

Are you all so selfless that you'd starve to give another your food? After all they might be more spiritually deserving than you?

I highly doubt it.

Do you always turn the other cheek? Always?

Hmm...

How is the hexing dealt with Danceswithdragons? What counter measures are taken? You talking PowWow now?

Anyway,

On one account, a woman who was a witch, took on the form of a cat, and visited the house of one of her enemies. The victim pushed the cat out of the window, and it fell from the second story. The woman, when seen again in her original form, had a broken leg after the incident.

[/quote]

Sounds like an urban legend spawned from old accounts of Witch trials in Europe.

These accusations and others like them were based around misapplications from local folklore and long term Christian misunderstanding of the Shamanic and Animistic cultures of the peoples they conquered,subjugated and absorbed.

They were also unanswerable in law and impossible to counter argue in a closed environment where accusation alone was tantamount to guilt and where the accused was tortured into confessing anything,prior to 'trial', just to get the pain to stop.

Literal shapeshifting dosen't happen,outside of fiction.End.

Sidenote: Vashta and I were lucky enough to view,up close and personal,such weighty tomes as the Malleus and Discoverie of Witchcraft,recently.

Those trials were so ridiculous,they'd be laughable if it wasn't for the still vivid renditions of the tortures and privations used against the victims.

Incidentally,when I research the Witch trials,I'm not studying magick,there is very little of it there.I'm looking at Political and social history and the spread of terror using fear and torture.I'm looking at mass manipulation for power brokering purposes.

[dancing-with-dragons]

...incidents of hexing and witchcraft (The dark side of the occult, I suppose).

Lulwot?

So hexing and witchcraft are the 'dark' side of the Occult?

Only for someone raised in fear and superstition about things they neither know of or understand,based on misconceptions,false evidences and lies used during a time of political and social turmoil to keep Social and Religious dissenters in line. [thumbup]

It's important to sort out the lies from the fakelore.

Ans for those who fear hexing:

if you get attacked you defend yourself and this is is true of all walks of life,whether your defence is by necessity perhaps physical,or verbal or whether by route of law or other offically recognised sanction and so on...

so why is magickal defence or attack,for that matter,looked on so heinously by so many Christians,Neopagans and those of similar ilk?

Are you all so selfless that you'd starve to give another your food? After all they might be more spiritually deserving than you?

I highly doubt it.

Do you always turn the other cheek? Always?

Hmm...

How is the hexing dealt with Danceswithdragons? What counter measures are taken? You talking PowWow now?

Anyway,

On one account, a woman who was a witch, took on the form of a cat, and visited the house of one of her enemies. The victim pushed the cat out of the window, and it fell from the second story. The woman, when seen again in her original form, had a broken leg after the incident.

Sounds like an urban legend spawned from old accounts of Witch trials in Europe.

These accusations and others like them were based around misapplications from local folklore and long term Christian misunderstanding of the Shamanic and Animistic cultures of the peoples they conquered,subjugated and absorbed.

They were also unanswerable in law and impossible to counter argue in a closed environment where accusation alone was tantamount to guilt and where the accused was tortured into confessing anything,prior to 'trial', just to get the pain to stop.

Literal shapeshifting dosen't happen,outside of fiction.End.

Sidenote: Vashta and I were lucky enough to view,up close and personal,such weighty tomes as the Malleus and Discoverie of Witchcraft,recently.

Those trials were so ridiculous,they'd be laughable if it wasn't for the still vivid renditions of the tortures and privations used against the victims.

Incidentally,when I research the Witch trials,I'm not studying magick,there is very little of it there.I'm looking at Political and social history and the spread of terror using fear and torture.I'm looking at mass manipulation for power brokering purposes.

Im very sorry, I wasnt clear in my post. I know witchcraft isnt "dark". I meant, there IS a dark side to the occult. There are "evil" people out there.

And as for it being urban legend, it's not possible. My father and grandfather knew the woman personally. She was also obsessed with the number 13.
I have a theory on how this "shapeshifting" happened.
Physical shapeshifting is impossible. But what about a sorcerer, or shaman, using his "double"? According to this website (http://www.quantumshaman.com/html/double1.htm) the double usually takes on the form of the original, but CAN take on any image.
Even if its just an illusion, it would still explain such accounts of "shape shifting".
What are your thoughts on this?

[Nahemah]

What are your thoughts? Real, or not?

You answered your own question:

Physical shapeshifting is impossible.

And,returning to this,for a moment:

On one account, a woman who was a witch, took on the form of a cat, and visited the house of one of her enemies. The victim pushed the cat out of the window, and it fell from the second story. The woman, when seen again in her original form, had a broken leg after the incident.

And as for it being urban legend, it's not possible. My father and grandfather knew the woman personally. She was also obsessed with the number 13.

Unless your relatives witnessed this woman shifting with their own eyes,or saw her break her leg,it's still assumption and proves nothing about shapeshifting,other than the locals fear it can happen and blamed the 'witchy' woman for it.
Many people obsess over numbers or other phenomena and it can be a sign of mental instability if it manifests alongside other symptoms or it can be an ingrained cultural fear based on often falsely attributed religious associations,for instance and so on...

Shapeshifting as you've described it here,is shapeshifting as it's known in the Occult,generally and in traditional forms of Shamanic witchcraft and magick also,
It's mostly utilised through trance and Astral travelling or Spiritual Journeying mediums and it is defienately not a literal physical transformation of the body.

But,I'm a bit unclear on the turnaround in this topic,as you've went from asking about physicality:

Real, literal, shapeshifting.

Postby dancing-with-dragons » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:41 pm

I'm not talking about shamanic, spiritual shape shifting. I'm talking about physically, literally, taking on the form of an animal....

... To this,with no bridging reasoning between :

But what about a sorcerer, or shaman, using his "double"? According to this website (http://www.quantumshaman.com/html/double1.htm) the double usually takes on the form of the original, but CAN take on any image.
Even if its just an illusion, it would still explain such accounts of "shape shifting".

Why would you think this is an 'illusion'...?

[Asurendra]

Hello Dancing with Dragons,

I spent some time looking at the site you linked, including reading through several pages of blog entries. My impression is that the Quantum Shaman has read the works of, obviously Castaneda, Rupert Sheldrake, Santos Bonacci & David Icke then reformulated this into the generic New Age material one finds across the web. I feel that it lacks the imprint of personal experience with Shamanism. That is simply my impression.

I cannot speak to what your relative heard from this woman. But one thing that I am an authority on are my own experiences. I did shape-shift into a fox on a Journey. One of the hallmarks of real experience is that it is often not what you expect. It was highly disorienting. The main reason for this was that the sensory input was very different. I also had to learn how to move and run in a different way since the musculature 'felt' different and also the sense of proportion was intimidating. I never thought for a moment any of these factors would have a role in a mental projection, but they do. Initially I just stood there trying to process until Fox helped me out and we began gekkering.

That is my experience but, like the Quantum Shaman, I am just some guy on the Internet and this could all be a fantasy or I'm making it up, so you will have to use DISCERNMENT to sort this all out. Better still, don't listen to us, to books, videos on YouTube or your grandfather ...

FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF!

P.S. I really didn't want to talk about this but I suppose it is necessary to put it out there to show the differences.

[DawningSun777]

For me I would not hold this Quantum Shaman as a reliable source of occult information. Seems more along the lines of what we'd call "new agey" than a valid, occult source. Differentiation between occult and new age is important to me, as occultism is scientifically based method wise whereas sites like this QS are more belief based and pseudo-occult and science. I would take the source with a grain of salt.

[Moon Sage]

From what I read, The Quantum Shaman refers to the double as the dream self. Hence, making physical shapesifting in waking reality, defunct.

[Asurendra]

DawningSun777,

Due to the policies of the Forum and the needs of the situation I was 'softening' my wording. If I posted uncut & unfiltered many posts would have a very different tone. I also thought it was important to give Dancing with Dragons an idea why I thought that, rather than just make a pronouncement.

[DawningSun777]

DawningSun777,

Due to the policies of the Forum and the needs of the situation I was 'softening' my wording. If I posted uncut & unfiltered many posts would have a very different tone. I also thought it was important to give Dancing with Dragons an idea why I thought that, rather than just make a pronouncement.

Understood, still working out my kinks as a newb here. I also rephrased.

[dancing-with-dragons]

Thanks for the replies!

At the start of my original post, I was referring to physical shape shifting. But then I thought a little about the "double" and came to some interesting conclusions.
Don Genaro seemed proficient at this. But it seemed that his "double" could not fully interact with other people. (Castaneda was unable to embrace him, and Genaro was unable to eat food).
So I am thinking that the "double" is a non-physical body. Even thought this would go against Don Juan's teaching. I'm confused. [unsure]

[Rin]

I would be very, very careful about taking anything Castaneda says seriously, it's been fairly conclusively proven that he made up, or ripped from other sources, huge swathes of what he wrote.

[Nahemah]

I didn't read the link,sorry,I should have pointed that out.Anything with 'quantum' attached,that relates to shapesahifting,is usually a red flag for me,lol.Just saying.

From what I read, The Quantum Shaman refers to the double as the dream self. Hence, making physical shapesifting in waking reality, defunct

Thanks Moon Sage,that was what I should've read about. as it is related to the OP question and topic subject. [thumbup]

@ Asurenda: your journeying experience is typical of what I would call 'borrowing':where you transfer consciousness into another living entity temporarily and the classic 'wobbliness' you felt is common to the experience,it can be a bit of a mind fuck at first,pardon my language,lol.

It's not a physical transformation,as you journeyed to do it and you went inside something else,the fox remains the fox and your body is still your body.[I'm saying this for Dancing-with-dragons's benefit,to avoid further confusion.]

It's not often talked about publically either,for good reasons.It's not an easy achievement by any means and it's something that only skilled and practiced travelers can do at will.Some never do it or think to try working this way and some find themselves there,in another species body by accident.Those ones are dificult to explain and reconcile to some folk.

It's a complex area to consider and one that causes a lot of conflict,especially with the Nu age brigade and the gimmegimmelolcheatzmagic crew.

[dancing-with-dragons]

Rin. With all due respect, I must disagree.

Carlos Castaneda was an idiot. Its obvious. But it's his teachers one should pay attention too. I have no doubt that the knowledge he recorded of is legit.
I keep referring to my teacher, who died last year. He experienced much of what Castaneda wrote of first hand.
Also, there's many other sources besides Castaneda. I don't think its wise to write all of them off because we can't explain something, or it seems far-fetched to us.
In antiquity, such magick was much more common.
I have no doubt the magicians in pharaohs court truly turned their staffs into serpents. I believe Solomon used real demons to build the temple. Such sorcery is rare to the modern, materialistic world.

[Nahemah]

So I am thinking that the "double" is a non-physical body.

This is what we've been telling you.

Do you know of Saint Alphonsus De Liguri at all?

He is considered a doctor of the church and he bilocated several times,with witness testimonies to corroborate the occurences.You might find reading about this interesting?

I cant really comment much on Castaneda as I avoid it like the controversy it is,lol.

The serpents and staffs,well,that one is intriguing,indeed,but as we've seen from the many wonderful stage and street magicians around nowadays,the arts of illusion and glamoury are still worked on and still amaze the bystander on a regular basis,even in this modern age. [thumbup]

I was reading a while ago about methods that may have produced the staff to serpent manifestation,as used by those in the Bible story,but I don't know if I can locate the page again.
It referenced a particular toxin which causes stiffness in soft tissue,but it has a temporary effect and the subject relaxes again after a short duration.I'm not sure how credible a theory this is,as I had intended to research if further,but got distracted by other issues,as is often the case.Sorry.

I 'll look for it,you never know,I may have bookmarked or stored something about it.It's certainly interesting reading material,if nothing else.

I think most,if not all,of the grandstanding and spectacular events described in the bible have rational explanations behind them,but it takes an open mind to look for those rationalities and religious belief can detract from seeking answers,as it often seems more than a little 'blasphemous' to do so I guess.

And,whether Djinn were in servitude to Solomon is a much bigger question and one that digresses a lot more from this subject,so not qualifying that one at all,here.

But I do think we have at least one new topic theme,if not more, for further discussion here. [grin]