Sexism in the craft

[autodydact]

Reading the thread on the word warlock got me to thinking about how gender is perceived in the craft and I thought this could be a pertinent opportunity to give it some discussion... Now, as I'm sure you all know, sexism is not the preserve of men alone. Women are capable of gross sexism also, both towards men and towards other women and I find it somewhat troubling the extent to which we all accept sexism in witchcraft and paganism.

Ok, so paganism is inherently matriarchal. It started life as a fertility religion and reveres the divine feminine. But somehow that has translated through the years to place men below women in the pagan pecking order... Various Wiccan groups will maintain that a male practitioner is incapable of working magick as effectively as a female practitioner for a variety of unclear reasons (we have god figures too remember?). That brings me onto the portrayal of god... I can understand why many female practitioners wouldn't want to focus on a male deity, but somewhere down the line, the divine masculine has been demoted to the role of 'goddess' little helper'. I could go on, but I'm sure you can all think of ways in which paganism (particularly, but not exclusively Wicca and other witchcraft traditions) seems to be sliding from matriarchy to misandry...

[RoseRed]

It's my understanding that true Wicca reveres both the goddess and the god. Real Wicca is a lineaged mystery tradition. Neo-wiccan-esque is it's red headed step child.

The word wicca has become the catch all phrase for feministic eclectic witchcraft. There's a huge difference between the two.

I totally get what you're saying on different levels. And these are just my perspectives from what I've seen in my own little corner of the universe.

There are people that believe that only females can be witches. Most of the men that I know that call themselves witch have gender things going on and have a very distinct female aspect to them. I only know of one man who identifies as a witch, but he does use other titles/words to describe the way he practices. He's a satyr - there's nothing feminine about him. Every time he refers to himself as a witch I'm like 'huh?' Most men that I've spoken with think that the word witch describes the female. A lot of them don't want to go by the title Warlock because at it's core - it means Oathbreaker.

Actually, originally, pagan just meant country dweller. Christianity came and took over the cities first. The lowly 'country bumpkins' had to wait to be converted until the Church got around to them. Not all of their beliefs centered around matriarchy. We're talking vast stretches of land - continents even. It's hard to lump that large of an area into a couple sentences.

This whole neo-wiccan-esque movement has a lot of feminism in it. There's a lot of man hating going on. I don't really understand it - I like men. Look to Starhawk for a perfect example. She's an outspoken leader in that community. From what I've read on certain blogs - she's even turned away women from her public rituals for not being feminine enough. (Sarah Lawless talks about it if anyone wants to check it out). I can't speak for the truth of it - but I did read her account of it.

I can understand why many female practitioners wouldn't want to focus on a male deity, but somewhere down the line, the divine masculine has been demoted to the role of 'goddess' little helper'.

That is so perfectly written. And you're right. I've seen it, too. I think it's a very unbalanced way to practice but that's just my own personal opinion. No one is always balanced and sometimes we walk to one extreme or the other.

I also think that it's a direct backlash against Christianity. A lot of people that come from a Christian background have some deep anger going on. Walking away from that upbringing isn't easy. You've got the big Daddy god and the misandry that people find in biblical passages. It's convenient to ignore what it says about the wife. I recently had this conversation with my best friend on the phone and her husband in the background. He was spouting off about how he's the head of the house because the bible says his wife is beneath him. Oh really? I was throwing back passages concerning how he's supposed to treat his wife in all of it (which, of course, he doesn't) and he didn't even want to acknowledge that the verses I was tossing out there were biblical. He finally gave up and wandered off.

So, yeah, I agree. There's a lot of it.

[Lord Ferocia]

Well said RoseRed, I agree with much of what you say in your reply.

I would like to add a little something if I may. We need to consider the symbolic here as well. Take for example the Thelemic system, where one has three principle Gods, Nuit, Hadit, and Ra Hoor Khuit. Nuit is the Goddess of the night sky, she is all potential, the universe if you will. This could be compared in essence to the Goddess of the Moon of Witchcraft. Hadit is the center of this universe, he is in effect 'you', consciousness. Hadit is the point within the circle, and this is regarded as Nuit's consort, a symbolic "male" if you will. So then, we can take these two as a sort of God and Goddess aspect, and so it is with "Wicca" (to be brief). Think of the Goddess as the female receptive aspect of Nature, to the masculine projective aspect of the seeker. There is a polarity going on here in the symbolism that is balanced. The female is the counterbalanced by the "male" symbol of the active principle of the practitioner, in that they are the dominate force of "going", in relation the feminine force of "receiving".

All other considerations (i.e. banning men from covens etc) is purely social in nature and is, I agree sexist.

[manofsands]

Y'all are probably tired of my reincarnation/life lesson point of view, but its what works for me in understanding life.

Sexism is a funny concept if you believe in reincarnation, because you can alternate sexes and even sexuality often (in terms of lives).

I think certain sexes obviously are better for certain lessons. The more extreme one is in their femininity or masculinity is a sign IMHO of being away from the center. I think the center is where we tend to gravitate toward the far end of our spiritual journey; a balance of the male/female in us. It might be why a the percentage of seekers in he lgbt community seems high compared to heteros.

As if this wasn't offensive enuff an idea to some, it was only a lead up to probably a more offensive idea I was getting to...

I believe that extreme feminists probably were male chauvinist in a previous life. It makes sense. Think what (karmically) would be the best lesson for a power hungry male chauvinist... obviously to live a womans life. Such a person possibly still having those root feelings as a woman would end up with extreme feminist qualities. Ironic, huh? Such is life.

I'm sure this can be an extremely unpopular view, but it makes sense to me.

[manonthepath]

You might be better of if you let go of the suffering you feel due to any perceived biases. I stopped caring about that stuff years ago and am better for it. some women hate men, so what. That's their pain and let them live with it. It's stupid to let whatever baggage they have cause you any suffering at all. Be the person you are and be free. I sometimes refer to myself as a witch and am as masculine as they come. Remember that most people are pretty child-like in their thinking.It is your duty to yourself to rise above it.

[autodydact]

@RoseRed- I agree emphatically with your post. I would not describe myself as Wicca but know many who do and have seen this sexism within those traditions and also in other pagan traditions. With regards to the term witch, it is one that I use. I would not consider myself emphatically male, but am certainly not feminine (I'm a hetero hairy guy who wears make-up from time to time and identifies as a feminist). I use the term because I feel it fits. I'm certainly not a sorcerer or a magus or a warlock etc. My practices fall into line with what is commonly termed as witchcraft, so that is the name I use.

I can understand the feminist aspect to neo-wicca. I can see how spiritual feminists would turn towards Wicca and why Christian upbringings (or simply existing in a patriarchal society) would lead them to revere feminine deities. I know feminism well. My partner is an active feminist artist, I've read Bell Hooks and the S.C.U.M manifesto and countless other tracts on the subject. I can understand why certain women would chose to ignore or degrade masculine deity; but they should do so in the knowledge that they are not practicing Wicca.

@Manofsands- I don't think it is a controversial view at all... Anyone who believes in reincarnation aught to agree. However, I would suggest that extreme chauvinists reincarnate as subjugated women as opposed to extreme feminists. It would surely make more karmic sense that they experience what they have put out into the world than to simply take the opposite view point?

[manofsands]

@Manofsands- I don't think it is a controversial view at all... Anyone who believes in reincarnation aught to agree. However, I would suggest that extreme chauvinists reincarnate as subjugated women as opposed to extreme feminists. It would surely make more karmic sense that they experience what they have put out into the world than to simply take the opposite view point?

Ya, I could see it work both ways. Makes sense.

[RoseRed]

manofsands I believe that extreme feminists probably were male chauvinist in a previous life. It makes sense. Think what (karmically) would be the best lesson for a power hungry male chauvinist... obviously to live a womans life. Such a person possibly still having those root feelings as a woman would end up with extreme feminist qualities. Ironic, huh? Such is life.

I don't see it that way. I mean, really, what's the difference between a male chauvinist or misogynist and an extreme feminist?

Nothing but the plumbing.

How is that a lesson? It's the same thing in a different meat suit.

Reincarnation doesn't usually come with such specific memories. If you really wanted to teach a misogynist a lesson he should come back as the wife of one - not a Woman Warrior who's out for ball sacks instead of scalps.

I think that part of the problem that you have with the whole idea of karma is because you're using it in it's modern sense. You might be interested in learning about it in it's original Eastern form. It's very different than what most people discuss when they talk of karma today.

[manofsands]

I don't see it that way. I mean, really, what's the difference between a male chauvinist or misogynist and an extreme feminist?

Nothing but the plumbing.

How is that a lesson? It's the same thing in a different meat suit.

Exactly, you've reinforced my point. But just because someone is in the lesson, doesn't mean they are learning from it.

And it wasn't a life as a male chauvinist to a feminist as a lesson. It was life as a male chauvinist to a woman. The fact that one would become a feminist in this situation shows they haven't learned the lesson. That's the point. Their may be others who do and lead different lives, and learning something from it. We still have free will to be as ignorant as we'd like.

I think that part of the problem that you have with the whole idea of karma is because you're using it in it's modern sense. You might be interested in learning about it in it's original Eastern form.

No. I don't have a problem with it. I have studied many forms of it. I have evaluated what makes sense and what doesn't and then came up with my own version which, makes the most sense to me.

[RoseRed]

Yeah, I totally missed your points today.

Thank you for taking the time to explain them instead of getting all pissed off at me.

[Ramscha]

Yeah, I totally missed your points today.

Thank you for taking the time to explain them instead of getting all pissed off at me.

Everything okay if I might ask? You seem kind of tired out.

[Asurendra]

If you want to have an idea of Karma in your life then you can find it in your Vedic astrology chart. Rahu, the north node of the moon, is this life's karmic goal and your immediate past life karma is in ketu, the south node of the moon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC2nnqDAUps

Speaking personally, my Rahu is in Gemini and my Ketu is in Virgo.