Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Religious rules and laws, structures and ontologies.

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Greatest I am
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Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

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Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

These links speak to theistic evolution.

http://mikeduran.com/2009/06/why-christ ... evolution/

http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c ... F680C1DBEB

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of it’s nature and instincts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL
Last edited by Greatest I am on Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Post by Etar »

Yes. Yes, I can.

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Post by Greatest I am »

Did you even read the O P friend?

As an evolving creature, do you not have to both compete or cooperate at all times and if you let the others win all the times you compete, will you not die out?

Think in terms of your job and how you competed for it. You won out over others and thus gained resources to look after your family.

If you cooperated instead and did good instead of the evil of competition, you would lose.
If you did that constantly and never did evil to a loser, you would starve to death. Right?

How then can you not win on occasion and do evil to the ones you compete against?

Regards
DL

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Post by Etar »

Of course I did. I just tried to make it very simple.

I'd rather die out than "compete" if it would be considered "evil" to destroy the other person or being. But I take it that you are not talking about just life and death. To use your example, I don't see competing for a job as evil. So, it's a mute point for me.

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

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Etar wrote:Of course I did. I just tried to make it very simple.

I'd rather die out than "compete" if it would be considered "evil" to destroy the other person or being. But I take it that you are not talking about just life and death. To use your example, I don't see competing for a job as evil. So, it's a mute point for me.
Try to see it from the losers POV.

Competing for a job is not evil. I agree.

From the losers POV, it is, as he might die if the loses continue.

Right?

Regards
DL

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Post by akimbomoss »

First of all I think this thread is kind of messed. None of those links you posted at the beginning works the way it was intended I believe.

A person will feel they are doing evil as long as that person fails to adapt to their environment and body. Don Juan says the universe tests us and the only way not to indulge in the negative feelings we get from this "evil" of which you speak is to stalk ourselves and try for impeccability.

Evil is not a very good word. It's worn out. Indulgence is a better word. When Joe Blow competes for a job did he indulge in power or did he stalk himself with patience, sweetness, ruthlessness and cunning? He did no evil if he stalked himself with these 4 things because there would be harmony in the workplace.

I recently read something that disgusted me on a job site. It said that people that show false confidence always get promoted more than people who are only competent but not assertive. So good Joe Blow should stalk himself with patience, realize that money isn't everything and not worry about promotions.

Look at Google. Their motto is "do no evil". Now they don't have a "video" button anymore, only a "youtube" button so you can't get video results from their competitors anymore. They succumbed to power I think, and not just because of this recent development.

You know what a good manager does? He uses cunning to go about his business without thinking too much. Cunning is about stalking the other 3 without having to think about what you're doing too much and get overwhelmed. I tend to think too much and am bad at cunning. Then because he has practiced patience, sweetness and ruthlessness in the past it comes naturally with cunning. The hardest part is knowing when to activate ruthlessness. Ruthlessness is when your fool detector goes off and you realize their's nothing you can do to help somebody. Ruthlessness is when compassion runs aground.

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Post by Greatest I am »

akimbomoss wrote:First of all I think this thread is kind of messed. None of those links you posted at the beginning works the way it was intended I believe.

A person will feel they are doing evil as long as that person fails to adapt to their environment and body. Don Juan says the universe tests us and the only way not to indulge in the negative feelings we get from this "evil" of which you speak is to stalk ourselves and try for impeccability.

Evil is not a very good word. It's worn out. Indulgence is a better word. When Joe Blow competes for a job did he indulge in power or did he stalk himself with patience, sweetness, ruthlessness and cunning? He did no evil if he stalked himself with these 4 things because there would be harmony in the workplace.

I recently read something that disgusted me on a job site. It said that people that show false confidence always get promoted more than people who are only competent but not assertive. So good Joe Blow should stalk himself with patience, realize that money isn't everything and not worry about promotions.

Look at Google. Their motto is "do no evil". Now they don't have a "video" button anymore, only a "youtube" button so you can't get video results from their competitors anymore. They succumbed to power I think, and not just because of this recent development.

You know what a good manager does? He uses cunning to go about his business without thinking too much. Cunning is about stalking the other 3 without having to think about what you're doing too much and get overwhelmed. I tend to think too much and am bad at cunning. Then because he has practiced patience, sweetness and ruthlessness in the past it comes naturally with cunning. The hardest part is knowing when to activate ruthlessness. Ruthlessness is when your fool detector goes off and you realize their's nothing you can do to help somebody. Ruthlessness is when compassion runs aground.
Thanks for the heads up on those links.

I fixed them if you wish to take a look.

Here are copies to make it easier.

http://www.americamagazine.org/

http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c ... F680C1DBEB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA


Your reply sort of took of on a bunch of tangents so I would ask you to KIS, keep it simple for now, and answer my ----Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

You can use that job scenario but please focus just on that competition and how the loser would perceive the loss. We will go from there.
It works better if you imagine yourself living where there is no social safety net.

Regards
DL

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Post by TheSeeker »

It is entirely possible to avoid doing evil simply because the notion or definition of what is evil is entirely subjective. That is to say that there is no universally definitive list available which categorizes the totality of human behaviour into good and evil; and furthermore, when those cultural value judgements are made within a community they are not necessarily accepted by members of other cultural groups.

For example, in 1528 Hernan Cortez entered Mexico. As Catholic Conquistadores, Cortez and his men were mortified by the ritual practices they witnessed, and were subsequently compelled to eradicate the "evil" they had witnessed by comitting, in the name of God, an act of genocide from which Central America has never fully recovered.

So which is evil, tying people to posts and covering them with pitch before setting them ablaze, or cutting their hearts out and then throwing their lifeless corpses down a flight of stairs? I don't know that I'm prepared to make that kind of value judgement. In any case, I honestly really fail to see how it is that not getting a job is evil. Unfortunate perhaps, but evil?

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Post by akimbomoss »

Greatest I am wrote: It works better if you imagine yourself living where there is no social safety net.
What do you mean? Like third world country? [confused2] Treat people like animals and they'll work like animals...

I watched the videos. Very interesting.

Normally we follow our instincts, as animals do. As it shows in the videos animals commit sins too. So maybe we are doing evil. I thought the whole purpose of the occult was to follow intuition instead of instinct. Intuition tends to go against what our brains normally tell us to do... it forces you to change and become more than just a pawn or running around like a badly wired robot.

I'm afraid I can't explain it any more simply than that and what Seeker said. I also find what you are asking strange. Why so black and white about it? What ever happened to shades of colors when deciding between right and wrong?

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Post by Greatest I am »

akimbomoss wrote:
Greatest I am wrote: It works better if you imagine yourself living where there is no social safety net.
What do you mean? Like third world country? [confused2] Treat people like animals and they'll work like animals...
I was not referring to that at all.

What I was trying to get across is that where there is no social safety net and limited jobs and resources, the one you won against may not have any options left except to starve to death.
That is the evil in competition. To the loser. Not to evolution itself because evolution must have competition to have the survival of the fittest. That is why we cannot but do evil.

Normally we follow our instincts, as animals do. As it shows in the videos animals commit sins too. So maybe we are doing evil. I thought the whole purpose of the occult was to follow intuition instead of instinct. Intuition tends to go against what our brains normally tell us to do... it forces you to change and become more than just a pawn or running around like a badly wired robot.

I'm afraid I can't explain it any more simply than that and what Seeker said. I also find what you are asking strange. Why so black and white about it? What ever happened to shades of colors when deciding between right and wrong?
Sure there are shades of grey. But in evolution and cooperation or competition it is black and white. We may flip from one to the other rapidly in some cases but we can only do one or the other. I see no grey in this.

I am asking this to show believers that they cannot help but do evil and that if God punishes us for doing what we cannot help but do to survive, he is unjust. IOW original sin is unjust.

Regards
DL

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Post by Greatest I am »

TheSeeker wrote:It is entirely possible to avoid doing evil simply because the notion or definition of what is evil is entirely subjective. That is to say that there is no universally definitive list available which categorizes the totality of human behaviour into good and evil; and furthermore, when those cultural value judgements are made within a community they are not necessarily accepted by members of other cultural groups.

For example, in 1528 Hernan Cortez entered Mexico. As Catholic Conquistadores, Cortez and his men were mortified by the ritual practices they witnessed, and were subsequently compelled to eradicate the "evil" they had witnessed by comitting, in the name of God, an act of genocide from which Central America has never fully recovered.

So which is evil, tying people to posts and covering them with pitch before setting them ablaze, or cutting their hearts out and then throwing their lifeless corpses down a flight of stairs? I don't know that I'm prepared to make that kind of value judgement. In any case, I honestly really fail to see how it is that not getting a job is evil. Unfortunate perhaps, but evil?
Please see what I gave to Akim on jobs and how you likely hurt someone down the losers line by just being the successful candidate..

As animals, all most of us can ever do is either cooperate of compete.

To never compete and do harm to someone down the loser's line, one would have to be wealthy enough to never have to compete. He would then never do harm to a loser.
I do not think this is possible though because that person would be subject to abuse from those who would take advantage of him.

Think of what bullies do. They take advantage of those that do not compete against them.

Regards
DL

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

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Greatest I am wrote:
Sure there are shades of grey. But in evolution and cooperation or competition it is black and white. We may flip from one to the other rapidly in some cases but we can only do one or the other. I see no grey in this.

I am asking this to show believers that they cannot help but do evil and that if God punishes us for doing what we cannot help but do to survive, he is unjust. IOW original sin is unjust.

Regards
DL
You can't simplify something this complicated. Oversimplification leads to dogma. I thought star wars taught us this. [geek2]

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Post by Nahemah »

Sure there are shades of grey. But in evolution and cooperation or competition it is black and white. We may flip from one to the other rapidly in some cases but we can only do one or the other. I see no grey in this.
Evolution does not always conform well to dualistic thinking like this.I also think there is over simplification going on here.

However:

I am asking this to show believers that they cannot help but do evil and that if God punishes us for doing what we cannot help but do to survive, he is unjust. IOW original sin is unjust.

Regards
DL
Given that you are questioning the concept of original sin,as said above,the dualistic nature of your points become more clear to me.

This is a topic relating to Abrahamic faiths and the fall of man.

My favourite heresy,relatively speaking and from Christian dogma,is the Pelagian,lol.Being of a Celt line of descent matrilinearly, this issue has always fascinated me,but more as an academic study than a matter of belief.

http://theresurgence.com/2010/03/15/pel ... r-heretics

I'd say it is the theological dogma that is unjust,certainly.This dogma was agreed upon in synods and councils by powerful men,with agendas that were often less than Spritually pure.
"He lived his words, spoke his own actions and his story and the story of the world ran parallel."

Sartre speaking of Che Guevara.

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Post by dRider »

Howdy Bomoss.

Evil is possible to avoid, simply by choosing to believe or "realize," if you will (at least for the self), that good and evil are a false dichotomy. It's only evil in point of view, in opinion. If evil does exist, it's far too much fun to cause mischief not to develop both paths. Besides, I think God will appreciate some hackers working for His heavenly online defense network.

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

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Greatest I am wrote:Please see what I gave to Akim on jobs and how you likely hurt someone down the losers line by just being the successful candidate..

Regards
DL
How is it that hurt is evil?

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

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akimbomoss wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Sure there are shades of grey. But in evolution and cooperation or competition it is black and white. We may flip from one to the other rapidly in some cases but we can only do one or the other. I see no grey in this.

I am asking this to show believers that they cannot help but do evil and that if God punishes us for doing what we cannot help but do to survive, he is unjust. IOW original sin is unjust.

Regards
DL
You can't simplify something this complicated. Oversimplification leads to dogma. I thought star wars taught us this. [geek2]
Simple or complicated, we still only have two options as we evolve unless you have something to add to Darwin's theory.

Regards
DL

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

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Nahemah wrote:
Sure there are shades of grey. But in evolution and cooperation or competition it is black and white. We may flip from one to the other rapidly in some cases but we can only do one or the other. I see no grey in this.
Evolution does not always conform well to dualistic thinking like this.I also think there is over simplification going on here.

However:

I am asking this to show believers that they cannot help but do evil and that if God punishes us for doing what we cannot help but do to survive, he is unjust. IOW original sin is unjust.

Regards
DL
Given that you are questioning the concept of original sin,as said above,the dualistic nature of your points become more clear to me.

This is a topic relating to Abrahamic faiths and the fall of man.

My favourite heresy,relatively speaking and from Christian dogma,is the Pelagian,lol.Being of a Celt line of descent matrilinearly, this issue has always fascinated me,but more as an academic study than a matter of belief.

http://theresurgence.com/2010/03/15/pel ... r-heretics

I'd say it is the theological dogma that is unjust,certainly.This dogma was agreed upon in synods and councils by powerful men,with agendas that were often less than Spritually pure.
Seems Pelagian was brighter than most.

Christianity and justice parted ways from Eden on. Christians interpreted it as our fall yet the Jews who wrote the myth called it man's elevation. Christians end with original sin and a guilt trip while the Jews end in man elevating himself to a moral sense. Foolish Christians.

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DL

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Post by Greatest I am »

dRider wrote:Howdy Bomoss.

Evil is possible to avoid, simply by choosing to believe or "realize," if you will (at least for the self), that good and evil are a false dichotomy. It's only evil in point of view, in opinion. If evil does exist, it's far too much fun to cause mischief not to develop both paths. Besides, I think God will appreciate some hackers working for His heavenly online defense network.
LOL.
Like looking at an ugly face in the mirror and only seeing beauty. Delusion.

The only way I see of someone not competing and creating victims and evil is to be independently wealthy and a recluse.
What he lives on though has been paid for by daddy's evil in the past as he had to compete for it.

Regards
DL

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

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TheSeeker wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:Please see what I gave to Akim on jobs and how you likely hurt someone down the losers line by just being the successful candidate..

Regards
DL
How is it that hurt is evil?
Not to be flippant but---
Do you like hurt?
Most do not. S & M are the exception.

In the case of job lose, depending on where you happen to be, it could mean starvation.

Regards
DL

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

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You seem angry. Usually, people wouldn't look to find any old thing they could grasp on to say, "YOU'RE WRONG!!"

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Post by Whyhaveyouforsakenme »

By saying oh I can't stop myself from being evil anyway so why try sounds to me like your giving up.
I always feel god is very forgiving and by just trying to be a better person you can already do much good.
Nobody can be totally "good". Jesus saids this many times.
Not trying and giving up is the true Satanist way.
If you just keep trying and even if you never succeed then you are a "good" person.

Guilt is only there to show you the consequences of your actions and help you to try harder and repent.
If you wish to loose this ability it may hinder you to become a better person.
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Sorry for spelling mistakes but I am German.

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

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Whyhaveyouforsakenme wrote:By saying oh I can't stop myself from being evil anyway so why try sounds to me like your giving up.
I always feel god is very forgiving and by just trying to be a better person you can already do much good.
Nobody can be totally "good". Jesus saids this many times.
Not trying and giving up is the true Satanist way.
If you just keep trying and even if you never succeed then you are a "good" person.

Guilt is only there to show you the consequences of your actions and help you to try harder and repent.
If you wish to loose this ability it may hinder you to become a better person.
I get where you're coming from, but to say that Satanists have 'given up', or are evil is simply over-simplifying things.
I myself am not a Satanist and do not follow a Christian paradigm, so for me his existence is a moot point.
However, there are a number of Satanists on this Forum who may take umbridge with your point of view, and set you straight.

Just as a point of order: here on OF we make an effort to discuss one another's belief systems in a way that is not judgemental or deliberately hurtful;
and afaik, those two courtesies are qualities that Jesus also instructed on many times.
Just sayin'...

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

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Greatest I am wrote:Do you like hurt?
No, but I understand that without darkness there is no light.

You don't know me, Sir.
The fact is that I live with considerable chronic physical hurt, injuries and emotional pain, almost all of which come from old injuries of one kind or another and which have been accumulated over a lifetime of doing both good and evil.

I don't mind at all. Hurt in part makes me who I am, and in a greater context it rounds out the human experience which would otherwise be incomplete.

If you don't understand this then there's really no point in carrying this Thread any further, except perhaps to say that I honestly find your point of view unbelievably myopic, sexist, and frankly draconian to the point of fundamentalist.
You'd likely find a lot more support in a Utah-based polygamy Forum.

*unsubscribed...

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Post by Whyhaveyouforsakenme »

TheSeeker wrote:I get where you're coming from, but to say that Satanists have 'given up', or are evil is simply over-simplifying things.
I myself am not a Satanist and do not follow a Christian paradigm, so for me his existence is a moot point.
However, there are a number of Satanists on this Forum who may take umbridge with your point of view, and set you straight.

Just as a point of order: here on OF we make an effort to discuss one another's belief systems in a way that is not judgemental or deliberately hurtful;
and afaik, those two courtesies are qualities that Jesus also instructed on many times.
Just sayin'...
I always thought that Satanist embraced their inner "Evil" saying it is impossible and futile to avoid it is that not a form of giving up ?
I never said you were a Satanist and even if you doubt the existence of god or do not believe in him you just have to look at the Kantian ethics.
Immanuel Kant said that every person has a moral duty to do what he thinks is right and what your conscience tells you to do.
Every man has this conscience so why not listen to it ?
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Sorry for spelling mistakes but I am German.

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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Post by Greatest I am »

dRider wrote:You seem angry. Usually, people wouldn't look to find any old thing they could grasp on to say, "YOU'RE WRONG!!"
More frustration and disappointment is the minds I find.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q

Regards
DL

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