Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Religious rules and laws, structures and ontologies.

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TheSeeker
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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Post by TheSeeker »

Whyhaveyouforsakenme wrote:I always thought that Satanist embraced their inner "Evil" saying it is impossible and futile to avoid it is that not a form of giving up?
Nope. Not a form of giving up at all.
Think about it logically. If Satanists had all, collectively, given up, then why would Christians see them as such a threat?
Whyhaveyouforsakenme wrote:I never said you were a Satanist and even if you doubt the existence of god or do not believe in him you just have to look at the Kantian ethics.
Immanuel Kant said that every person has a moral duty to do what he thinks is right and what your conscience tells you to do.
Every man has this conscience so why not listen to it ?
First of all Kant was a Christian who lived in Prussia during the time of the Holy Roman Empire.
Secondly and subject to the first point, his arguments are born of that same cuturally Christian context. In fact, I don't understand how you can even draw ethics or morality into the discussion when they are both cultural constructs that vary so widely from culture to culture.
Whyhaveyouforsakenme wrote:Every man has this conscience so why not listen to it ?
How can you say that? Psychopaths by definition have no conscience. Are you not aware of what just happened at that Public School in the States?
Egads, Man! What about Native Residential Schools? During the 19th and 20th centuries here in Canada, as part of our good Christian government's efforts to 'civilize' our Indigenous population, the children of native families who were living in poverty on the Reservations were taken away from their parents by the government, and put into Church-run boarding schools. There they were 're-educated', forbidden to speak their own languages and follow their own spirituality. They were forced to wear western dress and adopt the Christian faith. If you do a search on the web you will find that in recent years much more has come to light through law suites; about how the native children were raped, beaten, tortured physically and emotionally by the Christian fathers who were supposed to be raising them. Not just a few, either, but cases numbering in the hundreds; and, not just one school, but an entire system over a period of decades.
How can you speak of Kantian ethics?

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Greatest I am
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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

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Whyhaveyouforsakenme wrote:By saying oh I can't stop myself from being evil anyway so why try sounds to me like your giving up.
Which is why I do no such thing. Thanks for trying to put words in my mouth.
I always feel god is very forgiving and by just trying to be a better person you can already do much good.
Nobody can be totally "good". Jesus saids this many times.
Not trying and giving up is the true Satanist way.
If you just keep trying and even if you never succeed then you are a "good" person.

Guilt is only there to show you the consequences of your actions and help you to try harder and repent.
If you wish to loose this ability it may hinder you to become a better person.
Try as you might, the notion that you owe something to God for being the only way you can be just shows that you have let religion compromise your morality.
To accept a genocidal son murderer as your God shows just how immoral you have allowed yourself to be manipulated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mJCCARjyNM

You are right in that we should all try to do better. Get at it.

Regards
DL

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Whyhaveyouforsakenme
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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

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[quote="TheSeeker]Think about it logically. If Satanists had all, collectively, given up, then why would Christians see them as such a threat?
We'll maybe not given up but they don't bother trying we can agree on that atleast can't we ?
TheSeeker wrote:First of all Kant was a Christian who lived in Prussia during the time of the Holy Roman Empire.
Secondly and subject to the first point, his arguments are born of that same cuturally Christian context. In fact, I don't understand how you can even draw ethics or morality into the discussion when they are both cultural constructs that vary so widely from culture to culture.
Okay then what if we look at Sigmund Freud he even said Religion was an illness that needed to be cured if you read his "The Ego and the Id" where he explains his theory of the ego being divided into two parts; the ego itself and the super-ego.
The super-ego compels the ego to be like the father. It is your conscience that is in you because of how you were raised. If it isn't something devine then at least it was given to us through biology something that makes living in a group work. An instrument to keep the group together and to ensure the survival of it.
TheSeeker wrote:How can you say that? Psychopaths by definition have no conscience. Are you not aware of what just happened at that Public School in the States?
There is something wrong with these People even I you believe there is no god every normal human is born with a conscience. It must be like a mental illness that affects the Frontal Lobes of the brain that is associated with reasoning and Emotions. Maybe he took or did something that damaged this part of his brain I don't know but all I know is even in the Stone Age people didn't eat each other kill one another without good reason.
TheSeeker wrote:What about Native Residential Schools? During the 19th and 20th centuries here in Canada, as part of our good Christian government's efforts to 'civilize' our Indigenous population, the children of native families who were living in poverty on the Reservations were taken away from their parents by the government, and put into Church-run boarding schools. There they were 're-educated', forbidden to speak their own languages and follow their own spirituality. They were forced to wear western dress and adopt the Christian faith. If you do a search on the web you will find that in recent years much more has come to light through law suites; about how the native children were raped, beaten, tortured physically and emotionally by the Christian fathers who were supposed to be raising them. Not just a few, either, but cases numbering in the hundreds; and, not just one school, but an entire system over a period of decades.
How can you speak of Kantian ethics?
I admit the Catholic Church did a lot of bad things but they are only human....
Is it God's fault that the people who claim to represent him make mistakes I think not.
Just imagine people would blow up a building in your name it's not your fault that these people did it.
It is entirely theirs !
Roman Catholic, of Irish descent.
Betrayed by his God.

Sorry for spelling mistakes but I am German.

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Whyhaveyouforsakenme
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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

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Greatest I am wrote:Try as you might, the notion that you owe something to God for being the only way you can be just shows that you have let religion compromise your morality.
To accept a genocidal son murderer as your God shows just how immoral you have allowed yourself to be manipulated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mJCCARjyNM

You are right in that we should all try to do better. Get at it.

Regards
DL
To be honest I have lost my faith in the Church.
I do not let Religion compromise my morality.
I simply let my conscience guide me.
And why do you call god a genocidal son murderer is this a refernce to the story of the the 7 plagues of Egypt ?
I have to confess I am very sceptical when it comes to the bible some of these stories just cannot be true!
The old testament I feel has no place in our modern bible as it contradicts itself.
Like if you look at Leviticus 24,20 and then what Jesus later says in the Sermon on the Mount which I can't qoute from the top of my head sorry.
of if you look at the book of Job. Why would god make a bet with the devil this doesn't sound right at all!
So don't try and patronize me. I am not a mindless sheep in the herd. I follow my conscience that was given to me by god to guide me!
Roman Catholic, of Irish descent.
Betrayed by his God.

Sorry for spelling mistakes but I am German.

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Greatest I am
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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Post by Greatest I am »

That being the case, we have no argument my friend.

We agree on the bible which was not the impression I got from our chat.

My use of genocide was the myth of Noah after the exodus.

I do not agree with taking anything out of the bible as I see it as a good book of wisdom but just not the way Christians read it. As a Gnostic Christian, I reverse much of the morality that Christians come up with. The flood for instance they see as quite a good move by God while I see all genocides as immoral be they from God or man.

You might want to look into Gnostic Christianity if you did not lose you spirituality when you recognized the silliness of the Christian faith.

This bishop also has some good advice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AfFcAmx ... ure=relmfu

Regards
DL

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akimbomoss
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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Post by akimbomoss »

On the subject of the George Carlin video and who owns what...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/102547288/Hya ... DF-Library

Hyatt covers exactly this. Undoing Yourself Chapter 13: Who Owns the Planet Earth. I read the whole book some years ago. Very good book which defines dogma more clearly than any other.

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Greatest I am
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Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Post by Greatest I am »

A good read. Thanks.

Essential cooperation is used at the bottom of the last chart to show the difference between the oppression of legal and religious models and what the writer thinks a free man would do. I agree if it could be done but I do not see how it can be done.

We as live humans must compete for resources to sustain life.

Have you dithered out a way to go through life without ever doing evil to those you have competed against and beat?
IOW. How could you have not done evil to yourself or to the one you competed against?

Regards
DL

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