A Few Questions On Gnostic Christianity and Kabbalah

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Napoli
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A Few Questions On Gnostic Christianity and Kabbalah

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I have been doing a little research on the subject and comparing with Kabbalistic paradigm, and I feel like ruffling my hair. I have a few clarifications to make in the context of Gnostic Christianity. Here are my questions-

1. According to Kabbalah whose theories are followed in Christian occult traditions (please correct me if I am wrong), Yahweh is the Godhead or true God. But Gnostic Christians believe him to be the Demiurge. But they have no problem in considering his archangels as divine messengers and as benevolent spiritual agents. Why?

2. Some Gnostics consider Lucifer to be the one who is responsible for making the very first human couple, namely Adam and Eve, aware of their origin by tempting them to eat from the forbidden tree. Hence, some consider him a hero and to other Gnostics he is still a villain. Why is it so?

3. As usual Satan is considered the evil force. But he is considered an ally of Lucifer himself in other traditions. Again, why such discrepancy?

4. What is the name of the true divinity in Gnosticism, if there is any of course?

5. This question is related to the Kabbalistic paradigm. Adam and Eve have been expelled from the Garden of Eden for partaking the fruit of the Tree of Good and Evil. Later, the watcher angels were punished by Yahweh for teaching human beings the art of science, sorcery, making weapons, etc. Strangely, the occult is still practised in the Christian and Judaic paradigm, and obtaining knowledge of science is not a taboo in such tradition. Even Enoch was given such knowledge for being righteous. Then why was Yahweh angry with the fallen watcher angels for sharing this knowledge with other human beings? He and his angels seem to be not bothered in the least when contemporary people practise Kabbalistic magic and learn science. What am I missing here?
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Re: A Few Questions On Gnostic Christianity and Kabbalah

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

Napoli wrote: 1. According to Kabbalah whose theories are followed in Christian occult traditions (please correct me if I am wrong), Yahweh is the Godhead or true God. But Gnostic Christians believe him to be the Demiurge. But they have no problem in considering his archangels as divine messengers and as benevolent spiritual agents. Why?
Judaic traditions, but close - the beliefs that Kaballah is founded upon predate Christianity, though the system people use today who practice Kaballah is probably only less than a thousand years old. The Demiurge isn't YHVH - there exist both YHVH, who created all things, and the Demiurge who keeps things running. The Demiurge is actually comparable to Satan, and has been the reason why Gnostic sects have been rooted out and burned as witches in the past.
Napoli wrote: 2. Some Gnostics consider Lucifer to be the one who is responsible for making the very first human couple, namely Adam and Eve, aware of their origin by tempting them to eat from the forbidden tree. Hence, some consider him a hero and to other Gnostics he is still a villain. Why is it so?
Gnostics seek to fully remove themselves from the world of the Demiurge so they can seek the full completeness of creation as founded by YHVH. Although Lucifer gave people free will, he also took away an ability to find unity with the divine through making people imperfect and prone to seek the material over the spiritual. Lucifer is therefore both a positive force in that he gave people the ability to choose to pursue a path of righteousness, but at the same time made it almost impossible to do so without becoming entrapped in the material realm, and lost to it.
Napoli wrote: 3. As usual Satan is considered the evil force. But he is considered an ally of Lucifer himself in other traditions. Again, why such discrepancy?
Satan is post-fall Lucifer, they are one in the same. The ability of powerful god forms to exist in multiple forms and in multiple places at the same time makes him both a positive force (Lucifer, the light bringer) and the negative (Satan the deceiver). God forms, especially very old ones like this, simply don't conform to natural law, and to personify them in such a way is to limit them to the point that they are as fallible as us mere mortals.
Napoli wrote: 4. What is the name of the true divinity in Gnosticism, if there is any of course?
There isn't one true form of Gnostic thought, not to the degree that one entity can be said to be truly divine. If such a being was required, it would simply be the anthropomorphism of Knowledge, I guess - information and understanding in its purest form.
Napoli wrote: 5. This question is related to the Kabbalistic paradigm. Adam and Eve have been expelled from the Garden of Eden for partaking the fruit of the Tree of Good and Evil. Later, the watcher angels were punished by Yahweh for teaching human beings the art of science, sorcery, making weapons, etc. Strangely, the occult is still practised in the Christian and Judaic paradigm, and obtaining knowledge of science is not a taboo in such tradition. Even Enoch was given such knowledge for being righteous. Then why was Yahweh angry with the fallen watcher angels for sharing this knowledge with other human beings? He and his angels seem to be not bothered in the least when contemporary people practise Kabbalistic magic and learn science. What am I missing here?
I believe that it works like this, and this isn't the Rabbinic school of thought, simply my own. Humans have free will, and are therefore fallible and able to seek forgiveness by YHVH, and be given it. Angels do not have free will - any act of rebellion isn't forgivable as it is never done in ignorance, it is a direct act of defiance.

I'd love to hear more insight in to this - anyone studied the Gnostic teachings of any culture or system of belief?

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Re: A Few Questions On Gnostic Christianity and Kabbalah

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I am not so much experienced in this stuff to tell you anything significant but back a very while I was thinking about the same type of questions as well and this is what I came with. It's a disgusting mixture of psychology, philosophy and occult , so please bear with it.

God is the existence, the so called everything. There are many energies and aspects in god, one of those energies/faces is YHVH. This face itself is attributed to God, to the good and creative energies, "perfect", "complete", "pure". And thus I attribute to this face the unconscious. Look at the nature, animals (the parts of unconscious), they live in perfect self-regulating "harmony". Humans were the same. Then they got the conscious. They became aware with the help of Lucifer-another face of god. This has it's pros and cons. As humans became conscious for the first time, it was impossible to fit everything into the newly acquired and untrained, undeveloped conscious thus resulting in an sort of imbalance and disharmony with the self-balancing harmonious nature (unconscious). This is why Lucifer is being attributed with bad and destructive aspects of the god. But if we take it beyond good and evil, Lucifer is just the process of God/YHVH/unconscious becoming conscious. It is the path of evolution, and more specifically the purpose of man, moreover the purpose of magickian to become conscious, to become aware of everything. The same "everything" I mentioned in the first sentence of this paragraph.
Please remember that these are all my own ideas and I do not claim any of these to be true or real.
And in case you wonder what is nothing(-ness). In the tree of life , they say the Kether was created from the 3 sephirot of nothingness above it. But I wasn't able to find any literature about these ones other than that mention. And in my opinion that is beyond human comprehension. Because you feel,think with the senses of the existence, and you ask "what is nothing", yet "is" (to be) supposes to exist, existance, but nothingness/non-existence does not exist, and again does supposes existence but we are speaking about non-existence.

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Re: A Few Questions On Gnostic Christianity and Kabbalah

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RockDemon wrote:And in case you wonder what is nothing(-ness). In the tree of life , they say the Kether was created from the 3 sephirot of nothingness above it. But I wasn't able to find any literature about these ones other than that mention.
Look into the "Ayn, Ayn Sof, and Ohr Ayn Sof" -- the Nothing, the Limitless Nothing, and the Limitless Light of Nothing. These three lay beyond the 'tzimtzum' (contraction or withdrawal into form) and manifest the Tree below. So if you have these three concepts and one Tree, you have the number 4. YHVH?

At this point, however, the Ayn, Ayn Sof and Ohr Ayn Sof cannot be considered as "Sefirot"
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Re: A Few Questions On Gnostic Christianity and Kabbalah

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Napoli wrote: 1. According to Kabbalah whose theories are followed in Christian occult traditions (please correct me if I am wrong), Yahweh is the Godhead or true God. But Gnostic Christians believe him to be the Demiurge. But they have no problem in considering his archangels as divine messengers and as benevolent spiritual agents. Why?
YHVH is more a metaphor and analogy for the Divine. It is wrong to think about YHVH as an embodied being or substance, but it still embodies certain qualities and quantities. For the second part of your question, it seems like you disagree with the idea of the archangels as divine messages or benevolent spiritual agents? It was unclear.
2. Some Gnostics consider Lucifer to be the one who is responsible for making the very first human couple, namely Adam and Eve, aware of their origin by tempting them to eat from the forbidden tree. Hence, some consider him a hero and to other Gnostics he is still a villain. Why is it so?
I've never heard this before, so it's interesting. If you have sources or quotes I'd like to read them.
Also, from what I recall, the first 'couple' was an androgynous being known as Adam Kadmon. The second 'couple' was Adam and Lilith.
3. As usual Satan is considered the evil force. But he is considered an ally of Lucifer himself in other traditions. Again, why such discrepancy?
'Evil' is a relative term :)
When Christians began rewriting their scriptures and the bible, alot of things became re/misinterpreted.
I think you'd have to dig pretty deeply into church history to find out the answer to this.
4. What is the name of the true divinity in Gnosticism, if there is any of course?
It is nameless and formless, it is potentially everything bUT is nothing at all. The first chapter of the Dao De Jing has the best explanation I've been able to find in scripts:
Embodying the Dao:
The Dao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Dao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and unchanging name. (Conceived of as) having no name, it is the Originator of heaven and earth [ Tree of Life; (conceived of as) having a name, it is the Mother of all things
5. This question is related to the Kabbalistic paradigm. Adam and Eve have been expelled from the Garden of Eden for partaking the fruit of the Tree of Good and Evil. Later, the watcher angels were punished by Yahweh for teaching human beings the art of science, sorcery, making weapons, etc. Strangely, the occult is still practised in the Christian and Judaic paradigm, and obtaining knowledge of science is not a taboo in such tradition. Even Enoch was given such knowledge for being righteous. Then why was Yahweh angry with the fallen watcher angels for sharing this knowledge with other human beings? He and his angels seem to be not bothered in the least when contemporary people practise Kabbalistic magic and learn science. What am I missing here?
Times have changed? [tongue]

We're in a new age apparently, where all secrets will be known.
Maybe back in the day mankind wasn't developed enough for these things?
I don't see there being a fixt answer to this one.
Free yourself from the seduction of words.

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Re: A Few Questions On Gnostic Christianity and Kabbalah

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corvidus wrote:
RockDemon wrote:And in case you wonder what is nothing(-ness). In the tree of life , they say the Kether was created from the 3 sephirot of nothingness above it. But I wasn't able to find any literature about these ones other than that mention.
Look into the "Ayn, Ayn Sof, and Ohr Ayn Sof" -- the Nothing, the Limitless Nothing, and the Limitless Light of Nothing. These three lay beyond the 'tzimtzum' (contraction or withdrawal into form) and manifest the Tree below. So if you have these three concepts and one Tree, you have the number 4. YHVH?

At this point, however, the Ayn, Ayn Sof and Ohr Ayn Sof cannot be considered as "Sefirot"
Thanks Corvidus, do you know any specific books that deals with those?

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Re: A Few Questions On Gnostic Christianity and Kabbalah

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ein_Sof
This article seems to deal with some questions posted here.

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Re: A Few Questions On Gnostic Christianity and Kabbalah

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I think the Sefer Yetzirah talks about them. But other than that, I found most the information on these things from random essays through google searching. Can't think of anything specific.
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Re: A Few Questions On Gnostic Christianity and Kabbalah

Post by Cybernetic_Jazz »

Napoli wrote:I have been doing a little research on the subject and comparing with Kabbalistic paradigm, and I feel like ruffling my hair. I have a few clarifications to make in the context of Gnostic Christianity. Here are my questions-

1. According to Kabbalah whose theories are followed in Christian occult traditions (please correct me if I am wrong), Yahweh is the Godhead or true God. But Gnostic Christians believe him to be the Demiurge. But they have no problem in considering his archangels as divine messengers and as benevolent spiritual agents. Why?
'Christian Gnosticism' - ie. Sethite, Ophite, Valentinean, etc. are a different thing than Alexandrian Gnosticism. The later is Hermetic, it receives influx from Neoplatonist thought - really pantheistic monist thinking rather than Zoroastrian/Manichean dualism. The traditions that look at YHVH as a demiurge are a different current (unless you're looking at something like Samael Aun Weor's use of Kabbalah - that I can't answer because he was just too off the wall for me to keep up with).

As for a Demiurge on the tree of life - the best bet would be Chesed. You'd have to look into the Christian Gnostic use of the paradigm to see if they followed that logic.
Napoli wrote:2. Some Gnostics consider Lucifer to be the one who is responsible for making the very first human couple, namely Adam and Eve, aware of their origin by tempting them to eat from the forbidden tree. Hence, some consider him a hero and to other Gnostics he is still a villain. Why is it so?
Jewish Kabbalism seems to treat it even more differently - they seem to treat Samael/Khamael, archangel of Geburah, as ha satan. It doesn't make sense because it's an aspect of the divine mind - unless just realizing that the destroyer role is one we've considered inimical in the west; truthfully we've run so far toward Chesed that our ways of handling Geburah maturely are pretty poor still.

As for eating of the tree - that could equally be taken as a necessary involutionary step into duality (at least that's what Martinism tends to go toward). If you try to put literalism on this it seems to turn into one big lacuna.
Napoli wrote:3. As usual Satan is considered the evil force. But he is considered an ally of Lucifer himself in other traditions. Again, why such discrepancy?
Synchretism's a bitch. It's not something we 21st century westerners like especially as we come at it hoping to find absolute truth in our holy books.

So I might as well add to that - in Revelations the overcomers of Thyatira receive the gift of Luciferianism and in in Revelations 22 we find out that Lucifer is none other than Christ himelf! That is, if we want to treat the vulgate long-shot of the analogy of the King of Tyre as ha satan. All of that just seems really suspect. The identification of Lucifer as a deity of Venus in many Kabbalistic/Qabalistic traditions makes way more sense to me just because, well... that's about all that can be said of an unknown deity of that name! Perhaps Lucifer would best be served as a name for Haniel? Can't really think of a better place for that title to go from the astrotheological standpoint.
Napoli wrote:4. What is the name of the true divinity in Gnosticism, if there is any of course?
There's a bunch of Aeons generally. I don't know that IAO counts but they tend to put Barbelo toward the top with her companion.
Napoli wrote:5. This question is related to the Kabbalistic paradigm. Adam and Eve have been expelled from the Garden of Eden for partaking the fruit of the Tree of Good and Evil. Later, the watcher angels were punished by Yahweh for teaching human beings the art of science, sorcery, making weapons, etc. Strangely, the occult is still practised in the Christian and Judaic paradigm, and obtaining knowledge of science is not a taboo in such tradition. Even Enoch was given such knowledge for being righteous. Then why was Yahweh angry with the fallen watcher angels for sharing this knowledge with other human beings? He and his angels seem to be not bothered in the least when contemporary people practise Kabbalistic magic and learn science. What am I missing here?
I put this one down to synchretism as well.

You may notice that guys like Elijah, David, etc. seemed to thumb their nose at the prohibitions on occultism. When reading the bible, unfortunately for modern readership, this kind of thing is just par for the course.
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Re: A Few Questions On Gnostic Christianity and Kabbalah

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corvidus wrote:
Napoli wrote: 1. According to Kabbalah whose theories are followed in Christian occult traditions (please correct me if I am wrong), Yahweh is the Godhead or true God. But Gnostic Christians believe him to be the Demiurge. But they have no problem in considering his archangels as divine messengers and as benevolent spiritual agents. Why?
YHVH is more a metaphor and analogy for the Divine. It is wrong to think about YHVH as an embodied being or substance, but it still embodies certain qualities and quantities. For the second part of your question, it seems like you disagree with the idea of the archangels as divine messages or benevolent spiritual agents? It was unclear.
2. Some Gnostics consider Lucifer to be the one who is responsible for making the very first human couple, namely Adam and Eve, aware of their origin by tempting them to eat from the forbidden tree. Hence, some consider him a hero and to other Gnostics he is still a villain. Why is it so?
I've never heard this before, so it's interesting. If you have sources or quotes I'd like to read them.
Also, from what I recall, the first 'couple' was an androgynous being known as Adam Kadmon. The second 'couple' was Adam and Lilith.
3. As usual Satan is considered the evil force. But he is considered an ally of Lucifer himself in other traditions. Again, why such discrepancy?
'Evil' is a relative term :)
When Christians began rewriting their scriptures and the bible, alot of things became re/misinterpreted.
I think you'd have to dig pretty deeply into church history to find out the answer to this.
4. What is the name of the true divinity in Gnosticism, if there is any of course?
It is nameless and formless, it is potentially everything bUT is nothing at all. The first chapter of the Dao De Jing has the best explanation I've been able to find in scripts:
Embodying the Dao:
The Dao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Dao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and unchanging name. (Conceived of as) having no name, it is the Originator of heaven and earth [ Tree of Life; (conceived of as) having a name, it is the Mother of all things
5. This question is related to the Kabbalistic paradigm. Adam and Eve have been expelled from the Garden of Eden for partaking the fruit of the Tree of Good and Evil. Later, the watcher angels were punished by Yahweh for teaching human beings the art of science, sorcery, making weapons, etc. Strangely, the occult is still practised in the Christian and Judaic paradigm, and obtaining knowledge of science is not a taboo in such tradition. Even Enoch was given such knowledge for being righteous. Then why was Yahweh angry with the fallen watcher angels for sharing this knowledge with other human beings? He and his angels seem to be not bothered in the least when contemporary people practise Kabbalistic magic and learn science. What am I missing here?
Times have changed? [tongue]

We're in a new age apparently, where all secrets will be known.
Maybe back in the day mankind wasn't developed enough for these things?
I don't see there being a fixt answer to this one.
I have been doing my research on www.gnosis.org and some other sites. Lucifer is the 'light-bearer' and on the aforementioned site he is said to bring the light of gnosis. As for the question about the angels I asked it in the context that YHVH is the Demiurge. So if he is considered evil than naturally the question will be raised in my mind that can they be trusted by the Gnostics? On one hand I read that YHVH is the evil Demiurge and on the other hand his Archangel Michael is considered to be an ally of the Gnostics. Some conspiracy theorists like Cameron Day consider the archangels as the Archons. With so many theories out there one can't just come to a solid conclusion about the truth. And I agree with Cybernetic Jazz synchretism is truly annoying.
In my sword I trust.

- Ensiferum

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