Did the Norse gods and Odin help create Nazism?

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Did the Norse gods and Odin help create Nazism?

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As I'm writing this I felt that somebody and possibly others noticed/picked up and were outraged at this thought but no offence should be taken, this is only a discussion in the name of caution just to see whether there is any other force behind the far-right. The end justifies the means, the threat has to be assessed. Do you think the Norse gods and Odin helped create Nazism and the Far-Right ideology or not? Perhaps to undermine the remaining ways of the Romans? IF they do then they are malevolent. Apparently Hitler's vice or something believed in it and its re-founders possessed far-right views. On many Neo-Nazi things you see the Odin hammer and etc logos. While Nova Romans as you can see are quite the opposite. At where I live I about such an organization and they have very anti-semitic and far-right views, as well as beliefs in eugenics:

https://odinicriteofaustralia.wordpress ... t-pioneer/

https://odinicriteofaustralia.wordpress ... -unwanted/

If so could it have something to do with the grudge they have against Rome and its heirs? The Roman Empire seemed to lack racism and only discriminated based on culture, people of different colour could marry those of other ethnicity as well as receive every right/opportunity as everybody else. There was no racial discrimination when they conquered, just like others they could be slaves, become gladiators or freed men as well as citizens if they were born in the empire. The Roman Empire had occasional conflicts with barbarian tribes who worshipped the same deities and brought them down.

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Re: Did the Norse gods and Odin help create Nazism?

Post by taijitu2 »

So what if they did? I say this earnestly, not sarcastic.

Many people here express repeatedly that Gods, angels and daemons do not share a universal belief in what is just and unjust. The assumption that your own view of morality should translate to all heavenly beings is false.

Asatru is no different from any other religion (including hellenismos and religio romana).... it has followers from both the extreme right and extreme left. Practitioners have the capacity to have an authentic spirituality regardless of political affiliation.

Lets say, hypothetically, you somehow found out that a group of Gods helped in creating the antitheses of your belief system.

Then what? Fill yourself with hatred against them? Crusade against their followers, burn their holy spots and forbid worshiping them? It sounds eerily like other groups both, modern and historic, which have done the same thing.
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Re: Did the Norse gods and Odin help create Nazism?

Post by Liberator »

taijitu2 wrote:So what if they did? I say this earnestly, not sarcastic.

Many people here express repeatedly that Gods, angels and daemons do not share a universal belief in what is just and unjust. The assumption that your own view of morality should translate to all heavenly beings is false.

Asatru is no different from any other religion (including hellenismos and religio romana).... it has followers from both the extreme right and extreme left. Practitioners have the capacity to have an authentic spirituality regardless of political affiliation.

Lets say, hypothetically, you somehow found out that a group of Gods helped in creating the antitheses of your belief system.

Then what? Fill yourself with hatred against them? Crusade against their followers, burn their holy spots and forbid worshiping them? It sounds eerily like other groups both, modern and historic, which have done the same thing.
I don't hear or see any followers on the "far-left" plus atleast far-left doesn't promote discrimination based on how you were born nor social-darwinism. Well easy, then we launch a war on terror against the far-right or far-right sect as well. What kind of entity would promote killing or giving people lower status purely on how they were born physically by luck?

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Re: Did the Norse gods and Odin help create Nazism?

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Liberator wrote:]I don't hear or see any followers on the "far-left" plus atleast far-left doesn't promote discrimination based on how you were born nor social-darwinism. Well easy, then we launch a war on terror against the far-right or far-right sect as well. What kind of entity would promote killing or giving people lower status purely on how they were born physically by luck?

Your plea to launch a war of terror is disturbing.How exactly to you plan to find out who is "far-right" enough? Hack their computers? Interrogate them? Does targeting people following the religion of their ancestors count as discrimination by the far-left based on factors of luck or social Darwinist principles?

Christians believe Satan is the cause of the worlds woes. Should Christians go out launching terrorist campaigns against Satanist using the logic Satan might promote killing people based on how they were born, or luck?
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Re: Did the Norse gods and Odin help create Nazism?

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No, just no.

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Re: Did the Norse gods and Odin help create Nazism?

Post by taijitu2 »

Answering this question requires an attempt of Understanding, otherwise "did the Norse Gods and Odin help create Nazism?" will lead only blind fanaticism. An inability to separate things.

The German pagan revival of the late 19th/early 20th century was part of a much larger all things German revival. Many intellects involved in the German revival were anti-Semitic, as per the time but not as a rule. Certain figures were simultaneously pagan and anti-Semitic.

(Despite what conspiracy theorist purport, most Germans during WW2 were either Christian or irreligious, including Hitler and most high ranking government officials)

Guido Von List is a perfect example. Some of his developments of German neo-paganism (of which he was a practitioner) are considered perfectly legitimate by members of the Asatru community. He developed the Armanen runes after a surgery rendered him blind for several months. Implying he received them from the Gods. He was also an anti-Semite. One who's writings influenced National Socialism. You'd probably consider his political views abhorrent.

Does this mean ALL his work on German neo-paganism is rendered void? Does it mean that the Gods "helped create Nazism?" Should the Gods have struck him down with lightning? Can it be admitted that some people adhere to views which you may view as radically dangerous, yet still possess an authentic spirituality?
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Re: Did the Norse gods and Odin help create Nazism?

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taijitu2 wrote:
Liberator wrote:]I don't hear or see any followers on the "far-left" plus atleast far-left doesn't promote discrimination based on how you were born nor social-darwinism. Well easy, then we launch a war on terror against the far-right or far-right sect as well. What kind of entity would promote killing or giving people lower status purely on how they were born physically by luck?

Your plea to launch a war of terror is disturbing.How exactly to you plan to find out who is "far-right" enough? Hack their computers? Interrogate them? Does targeting people following the religion of their ancestors count as discrimination by the far-left based on factors of luck or social Darwinist principles?
Has nothing to do, promoting discrimination of people or their deaths based on how they were physically born is inherently harmful. Following your ancestors is ok, but that? No. What kind of beings are those who want to bring harm or death on those who are not physically of a certain colour, are weaker or were unluckily born with a certain disability? You will find everybody who understands will view them as evil thus its universal. The only reason people would follow such beliefs is they were born with the traits that are not on the wrong side of the line in them, otherwise they would be opposing it. What wrong have they done at all to deserve such a treatment? Just being born with certain features by pure chance/luck? Far-right ideology is evil in the form of an ideology because universally anybody who understands would not want such a thing done to them, anybody who knows not being born with the favorable traits deserve bad treatment or death is wrong. If you were one of them you would never endorse them. Its hard to explain but everybody can feel it aside from the supremacists who want to kill off the supposed "inferiors". What happens if you are "unlucky" enough to be part of the group being targetted or marginalized? If YOU were them? Such beings who promote things like that certainly don't deserve worship nor respect by those who do not approve of such treatment nor by anybody in the marginalized group. Unless by the group which are classified as the "elites"/oppressors and the downtrodden will revolt against them for the treatment eventually and even kill all of them off in the process. What makes them do so?

If they intend to bring harm, death or lower the status of certain people for the features they were born with. Then they have declared war on them. And anybody who is not 100% "Germanic" or has other heritage is immediately and already in a state of war with them. They are at war with all people who believe in a fair society aswell including myself. It depends if you hit back or not. An eye for an eye, how the world and war works. Don't hit back, you are prey/you lose. Hit back with everything you have.

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Re: Did the Norse gods and Odin help create Nazism?

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All people understand if something or someone intends harm on an innocent it is malevolent.

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Re: Did the Norse gods and Odin help create Nazism?

Post by taijitu2 »

You've derailed your obnoxiously stated question into a place for you to espouse your political views. This is the THEOLOGY thread, not POLTICAL thread.

Reskin your question. What if you asked "Does Allah and the Muslim angels support Jihad?"

Jihadist believe they do their God ALLAH a service by blowing themselves up. Does Allah condone murdering innocent people in his name? If ALLAH does not condone it, then do you think he is going to strike down terrorist with lightning before they blow themselves up?

I've told you the historic circumstance which had bound German paganism with Nazi Germany. In a non-biased fashion. Which any good theologian is. Non-biased.

No where in the POETTICA EDDA's or any other mythological source of German Paganism does Odin or any other person advocate the Killing of Jews or any other policy of Nazism. No where does Odin command the Germans to "wage war against people without 100% German blood." It just did not happen. You've managed to completely fabricate in your own mind some non-existent threat German Gods pose.
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Re: Did the Norse gods and Odin help create Nazism?

Post by Liberator »

taijitu2 wrote:You've derailed your obnoxiously stated question into a place for you to espouse your political views. This is the THEOLOGY thread, not POLTICAL thread.

Reskin your question. What if you asked "Does Allah and the Muslim angels support Jihad?"

Jihadist believe they do their God ALLAH a service by blowing themselves up. Does Allah condone murdering innocent people in his name? If ALLAH does not condone it, then do you think he is going to strike down terrorist with lightning before they blow themselves up?

I've told you the historic circumstance which had bound German paganism with Nazi Germany. In a non-biased fashion. Which any good theologian is. Non-biased.

No where in the POETTICA EDDA's or any other mythological source of German Paganism does Odin or any other person advocate the Killing of Jews or any other policy of Nazism. No where does Odin command the Germans to "wage war against people without 100% German blood." It just did not happen. You've managed to completely fabricate in your own mind some non-existent threat German Gods pose.
I am not claiming they are now but I am saying what if they do now? IF they do now this is our protocol and etc. But the problem is there is no way of knowing if they endorse them or not and this discussion is to find out. If they do though this is how we must react.

The far-right are a very powerful political force and pose a significant threat, which is why I worry if there is anyone backing them.
Last edited by Liberator on Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:15 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Did the Norse gods and Odin help create Nazism?

Post by Cybernetic_Jazz »

Liberator,

You might want to check out the Eric Metaxas biography of Dietrich Bonhoeffer called Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy. I'm not recommending it for the sake of hyping the author or the POV so much as that it had a lot of interesting details about what happened to Germany during WWI, the forced removal of the Kaiser from power, the tole of the reparations under the Treaty of Versailles, the resulting Wiemar Republic, and the state the people were in by the time Hitler took a shot at office. It goes into detail as to how Hitler slowly widdled away people's rights, tested the people's boundaries and stretched them in calculated manners, how he appointed clergy to head the Lutheran church, how the Nazi party actually took control of the preachers, and how there was hardly anyone left in the country with a voice after a short amount of time who had any disagreement with him.

If you really think the Norse gods brought on Nazism you may have to look for them in the crafting of the Treaty of Versailles - essentially that treaty caused enough suffering and identity crisis for people to vote in what John Ralston Saul coined the 'secular hero' - ie. the man who claimed that he'd fix it all, rescue everyone from their dire situation, and that he had a plan! When I think of it, Rome voted Nero in - the guy who killed his own mom, the guy who supposedly fiddled while the city burned, on account of his celebrity status - ie. he was good looking, he was a pro athlete (Olympic champion), and celebrity was his qualification to govern. Different things can cause horrific voting decisions, from dire suffering to culture-wide nihilism.

There were a lot of sociological lessons to be learned from what happened, but as far as I can tell if the Norse deities had any hand in instigating the situation it was barely needed.
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Re: Did the Norse gods and Odin help create Nazism?

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Liberator wrote:I am not claiming they are now but I am saying what if they do now? IF they do now this is our protocol and etc. But the problem is there is no way of knowing if they endorse them or not and this discussion is to find out. If they do though this is how we must react.
My friend, I can see you are interested in the Roman Pantheon. You should know that the Indo-European Gods and Goddesses derive from the same faith. They were once worshiped as the same Gods.

If somebody tells you they talk to the Gods and have an answer to your question I'd advise you not to believe them.

Some interpretations of the biblical tower of babel story is that it is an allegory for those who wage war against God. A futile and self-destructive task.

Don't wage war against the Gods. You'll only harm yourself.
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Re: Did the Norse gods and Odin help create Nazism?

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taijitu2 wrote:
Liberator wrote:I am not claiming they are now but I am saying what if they do now? IF they do now this is our protocol and etc. But the problem is there is no way of knowing if they endorse them or not and this discussion is to find out. If they do though this is how we must react.
My friend, I can see you are interested in the Roman Pantheon. You should know that the Indo-European Gods and Goddesses derive from the same faith. They were once worshiped as the same Gods.

If somebody tells you they talk to the Gods and have an answer to your question I'd advise you not to believe them.

Some interpretations of the biblical tower of babel story is that it is an allegory for those who wage war against God. A futile and self-destructive task.

Don't wage war against the Gods. You'll only harm yourself.
I am not saying against all but wondering if some are malevolent or not. Also this is only a matter of investigation, check the edit. I am just checking to make sure if there are any forces behind driving the far-right. You could say that Scandinavia's social progress and welfare systems were approved by them but for no loose ends have to see if anything is behind the far-right and helping them. Whether it's them or not.

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Re: Did the Norse gods and Odin help create Nazism?

Post by Liberator »

Cybernetic_Jazz wrote:Liberator,

You might want to check out the Eric Metaxas biography of Dietrich Bonhoeffer called Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy. I'm not recommending it for the sake of hyping the author or the POV so much as that it had a lot of interesting details about what happened to Germany during WWI, the forced removal of the Kaiser from power, the tole of the reparations under the Treaty of Versailles, the resulting Wiemar Republic, and the state the people were in by the time Hitler took a shot at office. It goes into detail as to how Hitler slowly widdled away people's rights, tested the people's boundaries and stretched them in calculated manners, how he appointed clergy to head the Lutheran church, how the Nazi party actually took control of the preachers, and how there was hardly anyone left in the country with a voice after a short amount of time who had any disagreement with him.

If you really think the Norse gods brought on Nazism you may have to look for them in the crafting of the Treaty of Versailles - essentially that treaty caused enough suffering and identity crisis for people to vote in what John Ralston Saul coined the 'secular hero' - ie. the man who claimed that he'd fix it all, rescue everyone from their dire situation, and that he had a plan! When I think of it, Rome voted Nero in - the guy who killed his own mom, the guy who supposedly fiddled while the city burned, on account of his celebrity status - ie. he was good looking, he was a pro athlete (Olympic champion), and celebrity was his qualification to govern. Different things can cause horrific voting decisions, from dire suffering to culture-wide nihilism.

There were a lot of sociological lessons to be learned from what happened, but as far as I can tell if the Norse deities had any hand in instigating the situation it was barely needed.
I'm not 100% blaming them but I am just trying to find out if they helped create far-right ideology or not just incase. Similar to how I want to find out if Allah or Muhammad endorse Radical Islam or not. If Allah or Muhammad endorsed Islamic State then wouldn't they count as malevolent beings for example thus very worrying if we don't know if they actually do or not? The other current powerful culture that originates in Scandinavia is the culture of protecting the weak or helping out the systematically oppressed, the total opposite of social-darwinism which I endorse. I am not sure which of the two they are likely responsible for but thoughts?

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Re: Did the Norse gods and Odin help create Nazism?

Post by Cybernetic_Jazz »

Liberator wrote:The other current powerful culture that originates in Scandinavia is the culture of protecting the weak or helping out the systematically oppressed, the total opposite of social-darwinism which I endorse.
If your dispute with the Norse gods is semantic then - ie. Hitler by way of national socialism rather than by culture-wide belief in weeding out the weak, you might want to look to South Korea and ask what deities are running that piece of land; ie. it's a caricature of US destructive competition where kids routinely commit suicide over graduation exam scores, study 16 hours a day, and disability is still seen as disgraceful.
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Re: Did the Norse gods and Odin help create Nazism?

Post by WillowDarkWytch »

Motumbá Àse!

Acording to Liberator, IF norse gods helped their "people", they're evil. First, gods are NOT good and evil in the conception of men, they're GODS. It's like when vegetarians say that Orixas (orishas) are "evil" because they "ask" for animal sacrifices and no real nature deity or "good god" would do that. That's just anoying.

Human morals are not applied in gods' actions. That's my guess. So if they helped to "build up" nazism, they did it because they where helping the people who gave them worship and proper cult. Plus! vikings where pretty much warriors, so their deities are not ones of fluff and light and love and beauty... are those of war, blood, and death as part of life itself.

So, nope, norse gods wouldn't be evil even if they did help nazism, and I guess they did.

(Let's remember that Hitler was a "rootless" person, he worshiped gods that didn't belong to his own blood heritage. He wasn't scandinavian nor "white", he should work with Qabalah and angelic magic, but he didn't and embrace a cult focus on race supremacy, pointing out that his own race was inferior... I say crazy :P )

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Re: Did the Norse gods and Odin help create Nazism?

Post by Cybernetic_Jazz »

Another thing I was thinking about, especially in respect to social darwinism (as he suggested he's a proponent of), I grew up under intense bullying. I can't think of any other ways that social darwinism, by that name, can be applied. My opinion on bullying, stigmas, and social shibboleths and litmus tests meant to 'separate the castes' and elevate some up, keep others down, is the horrific amount of waste that's involved.

Watching this over my life the entire process of how we bully and scare each other into lockstep with various conventions has a distinctly blunting effect on integrity for all involved - those who perpetrate it, those who modify their every behavior to fit its wims, and those who get the business end of the stick. Bully's end up as bellocose, beligerent, and very short-sighted leaders of relatively poor quality, people who've hammered themselves into nimbs to be bully compliant are so riddled with self-negations that they barely seem to be able to interact written or verbally in plain English even if it's their first language, and those who get bullied the hardest are quite often times people who'd be making far more money today and would offer much more benefit to society if such an intense disadvantage hadn't been leveled on them in their youth. Even when the later do succeed it's usually quite a discount from what their potential really was.

I'd much rather live in a world that held personal integrity in the highest, had a very serious stance on the corrosion that bullying and social politics had on people's ability to do what was straight-forward clear and common sense, even if this hypothetical society was equally aggressive at Sanger-style sterilization or tube-tying of those who were deemed to have disabilities or genetic situations traits that were deemed undesirable. That society might be cold in certain ways but the whole system of coercion wouldn't be taking the deep slice of people's operative IQ's which I firmly believe that it does (just on how many useless talents at balancing nonsense and parenting other adults that people need just to survive in this climate).
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Re: Did the Norse gods and Odin help create Nazism?

Post by Frater Chiasmus »

My limited knowledge of the foundations of the Occult sect of the SS was the Thule Society, whose associations were tied to the HOGD. Crowley was known to visit certain members of the Thule Society. The cultural ties to the Thule were those who participated in Irminism, not completely associated with what any of us would call Asatru by any means. Their uses of Guido Von List's Runic interpretations differ moderately from the more expanded research we have today.

So to say the Nordic Pantheon help create Nazism, I have to say no. There is more of a chance that the influences of Madame Blavatsky's racist influences and Aleister Crowley himself had a better chance of influence.
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