The Genealogy of Ideas Book Club! Join the Discussions!

[Nemiel]

I have decided to start a book reading club, a line by line/paragraph by paragraph reading club of philosophical texts, you are welcome to join, all you need is access to the material we are reading together and your own ideas to share willingly either by emails, comments (on the forum or on the video comments) or video responses and possibly via webinar webcasts via YouTubes' Google Plus Hangouts!

The books that will be read and discussed in sections (no time limit on any particular page or idea) will be :

1) "On the Genealogy of Morality (The Genealogy of Morals)" by Friedrich Nietzsche
2) A joint book analysis of "Thus Spake Zarathustra" by Nietzsche and "Nietzsche's Epic of the Soul - Thus Spake Zarathustra" by T.K. Seung

YouTube Channel : www.youtube.com/genealogyphilosophy

Interested?

[Nemiel]

Feel free to leave any comments here, or on the video page.

This is the first in the book club series.
I am referring to the prologue in "Thus Spake Zarathustra", or chapter I.
The term discussed in the video is "untergeben".

[Deathquota]

Despite my familiarity with these ideas, I still find myself gaping at every line’s delivery. This will not be an adept summary of the chapter, but more of an initial reaction to the prologue and hopefully starting point for discussion. I am reading independent of an accompaniment work right now. As far as what Nemi said, I agree that understanding the meaning of going under is crucial to understanding the chapter. Rather than transcending this world, Zarathustra preaches of the laws of this earth, as “God is dead”.
Zarathustra meets a saint on the way down, and Zarathustra’s descent due to love for mankind is contrasted by the Saint’s view of humankind as imperfect. Upon visiting the village, Zarathustra preaches of the Ubermensch, who is described as the meaning of the earth, beyond man and animal, and lightning from the black cloud.

Behold, I teach you the Ubermensch: he is that sea; in him your great contempt can be submerged. What is the greatest thing you can experience? It is the hour of great contempt. The hour in which even your happiness becomes loathsome to you, and also your reason and virtue. The hour when you say: “What good is my happiness! It is a poverty and pollution and wretched contentment. But my happiness should justify existence itself!

(The Ubermensch is an idea which an entire post could be dedicated to). However, Zarathustra is ridiculed by the villagers after his speech.
The reversal of values can also clearly be seen from the outset, with Zarathustra referring to the mountain he had stood on as a cave (from Plato’s Analogy of Sun). I find many of Zarathustra’s statements quite captivating:

I love him who is ashamed when the dice fall in his favor and then asks: “Am I a gambler who cheats?”

I love him who chastens his god because he loves his god: for he must perish of the wrath of his God

Anyhow, I think there are many ideas worth discussing here. We can make it into a public discussion, or do a line-by-line analysis of the prologue. Consider this an introductory post, and invitation to other users. [yay]

Man is something that shall be overcome. What have you done to overcome him?

All beings so far have created something beyond themselves: and you want to be the ebb of that great tide, and would rather go back to the beast than overcome man? What is an ape to man? A laughing-stock or painful embarrassment.

Zarathustra defines man as a bridge between animal and the ubermensch. Man is to be overcome.

[Nemiel]

Great reply. I made this video in response :

I have also included this video too, as it talks of self-overcming in flux. It also explains how every study of Nietzsche is an interpretation and requires previous convinctions and beliefs to understand as well as reference to other philosophies.

[Deathquota]

Thanks for filling in some gaps. I began to summarize, but stopped myself, and began to doubt what value that summary actually has. I think there is a great distinction made here: Analysis vs Interpretation. While we can certainly try and analyze what Nietzsche means in some objective sense, it is more relevant to find personal interpretation. This is at the core of how I have understood existentialism, that values and meaning are created through existential experience, that there are no facts but only interpretations, and internal self-overcoming is necessary. Nietzsche's merging of the personal and intellectual is the same thing which drew me to Platonism originally, that the truth (governing principle) is one that concerns the personal intellectual interest. However, of course under Plato things became objective and fixed. This is also how I understand Aristotle’s statement that theoretical knowledge is the most satisfying activity, as it is its own end (rather than the practical, applied knowledge in the Aristotelian context). Physiological flux is simply a beautiful term. This analogy of houses is very useful to understanding self overcoming.

I am now slowly becoming free of mechanistic thinking. These are my personal and subjective observations. Perhaps if I recognize that the process of self-overcoming has no end, then I cannot become the wise and condescending philosopher, since I have no desire for it. I, as an organic being naturally feel as if I am liberated completely and utterly by the flux, but the Platonist inside of my screams blasphemy. Should I try to qualify flux through labels, as some type of metaphysical being? This is where I was when I first joined the forum. Another danger, is that we become the messengers when we spout Nietzschian philosophy. Surely we can liberate the rest of humankind? But what truth can we possibly awaken them to? None, but to themselves. But enough of me, back to the text.
'
I think it is easy for the modern man to recognize with the position of the last man. It really is a peculiar position. The last man seems indicative of this comfort of no longer re-assessing his position. He has reached some sort of intellectual end, as an impenetrable ultimate philosophy from his own perspective. We know however that the Ubermensch must overcome both this and a sort of nihilistic state. The last man is a goal for western civilization.

Following this, in the market place we get the scene of a tight-rope walker, who, being mocked by the jester falls off the tight rope and is mortally wounded. While briefly regaining consciousness before Zarathustra, we get an interesting dialogue:

"What are you doing there?"He said at last, "I knew long ago that the devil would trip me up. Now he will drag me down to hell: will you prevent him?"

"On my honor, my friend,"answered Zarathustra

there is nothing of all that you speak of: there is no devil and no hell. Your soul will be dead even sooner than your body: fear nothing further

The man looked up distrustfully."If you speak the truth," he said

“I lose nothing when I lose my life. I am not much more than an animal that has been taught to dance by blows and a few scraps.”

“Not at all,” said Zarathustra, “You have made danger your calling; there is nothing contemptible in that. Now you perish by your calling: for that I will bury you with my own hands.”

From an outsider's perspective this exchange might be creepy, but I almost find Nietzsche's immoralism to be beautiful here. Zarathustra is mocked by the villagers for carrying the body, and is denied shelter by an old man.

“Whoever feeds the hungry refreshes his own soul: thus speaks wisdom”

This next part of the chapter excites me, as it is indicative of something that almost represents the emergence of the occult, and something like autopoiesis.
Zarathustra comes to a realization:

“An insight has come to me: I need companions-living ones, not dead companions and corpses, which I carry with me where I please”

“Companions the creator seeks, not corpses-and not herds or believers either. Fellow creators the creator seeks-those who write new values on new tablets”

The prologue is finalized with Zarathustra admiring the snake (the wisest animal), which tangles itself around the eagle (the proudest animal) in friendship.

I like to keep things in sizable chunks, to allow for a back-and-forth exchange of ideas if possible. I was thinking of making videos but right now my environment isn't exactly ideal for that.

[Nemiel]

This is not related to the previous comment, I will reply to that within the next week.

This post is to kickstart the reading club with "On the Genealogy of Morality" - I link Nietzsche to Baruch Spinoza.
Lecture about "On the Genealogy of Morality" by Friedrich W. ‪#‎Nietzsche‬.
The video is long but dense with an overview of all three essays within the book, well worth watching for an overall summary before I begin the book club reading sessions for this volume.

[manonthepath]

What you need is a good apple cider vinegar enema with lots of ceyenne pepper. [gz] [gz]

[Nemiel]

What you need is a good apple cider vinegar enema with lots of ceyenne pepper. [gz] [gz]

That sounds immoral! I like it! haha

[Deathquota]

This is not related to the previous comment, I will reply to that within the next week.

By the way, don't feel that you have to push yourself to deadlines, unless you really desire to. There is plenty of time (or at least I hope so). You have always put a lot of time and effort into this. [smile]

Really nice overview you have there, by the way. Hopefully we can focused on a specific idea in the text soon.

[Nemiel]

Thanks for filling in some gaps. I began to summarize, but stopped myself, and began to doubt what value that summary actually has. I think there is a great distinction made here: Analysis vs Interpretation.....I like to keep things in sizable chunks, to allow for a back-and-forth exchange of ideas if possible. I was thinking of making videos but right now my environment isn't exactly ideal for that.

I cut down the quote to save space, this video is in reply to your previous post and this will hopefully conclude the prologue, unless you or anyone else has anything more to cover here.

[Nemiel]

[Deathquota]

Hey Nemus, it seems that we have been busy. Anyways, Nietzsche likens a virtue to having a romantic relationship. He personifies virtue with the pronoun "she". His description which follows is quite sensual, actually. The virtue of the individual is man's ultimate good. I am reminded of greek heroes, such as Hector, whose actions don't seem justifiable by modern moral thought, but who ultimately died at his family's expense for the sake of his virtue of honor, his ultimate passion and love in life. You already have described how the greeks were much more nihilistic in a sense, and valued an ultimate virtue in their Homeric characters, who embodied this virtue.

It is not out of necessity that this earthly virtue emerges, but from personal passion. The medieval philosopher Michel de Montaigne uses a similar argument to argue that human madness is what we see as admirable. Ultimately, what Nietzsche is getting at here is that our passion for life is all that drives us. This also facilitates a strong sense of individual character. We should not alienate our drives by calling our passions demons.
One image Nietzsche uses for this transformation in self-overcoming is wild-dogs in your cellar becoming birds and charming singers. Furthermore, we grow from suffering as Nietzsche explains to us,

You milked your cow, misery- now you drink the sweet milk of her udder.

Furthermore, no evil grows from virtue, which ultimately emerges from our passion. This is where our will to live is. Evil can only emerge from the conflict of virtues in oneself. And great suffering at that. Power blocks Empathy. Virtues fundamentally contradict, and one must supersede another if you are to make a judgement. The Ubermensch with only one virtue will go over the bridge easily. Nietzsche states how the virtues are jealous of each other, each wants your whole strength, hatred, wrath, love.

[Nemiel]

We have indeed been very busy, but I have reorganised my life so that I can devote more time to my online projects! yay!

This examines "Of the Chairs of Virtue", I see that you have read through to chapter five, I will refer back to your post as I progress through the rest of this chapter.