The Creator Source's Indifference

[Napoli]

So many questions have been running in my head regarding this subject. I tried looking for answers within the limited scope I have. Nothing seems to add up. This post may seem emotional and probably sound like a rant. However, the questions are genuine even when I look at things from a neutral perspective.

So, I was born a Muslim and gave up on religion altogether in my adulthood. Allah claimed to be devoid of any needs and desires. Still, if we don’t worship him we are destined to burn in hell for eternity. Religions like Hinduism believes in purgatory and re-incarnation, unless one is liberated from the cycle. Then there will be assimilation with the Para Brahman. Coming into the folds of occult I found out that this is more or less the esoteric interpretation of all faiths. Karma and re-incarnation seemed to be a good concept, but what bothered me was that we will all be born unaware of our past lives. Suppose, in this life I murder someone. In the next life, I will have and injury that will permanently disable me and hence I will suffer in poverty. Unaware, of the truth and devoid of how soul and karma works, I may commit more sins or crimes and keep on suffering. In the meantime, someone may choose to retaliate and end up hurting someone close to me and his next life will give him his punishment. Nice cycle. I may meet up with a guru who will point out to me the reality. But not all of us are that lucky. Anyway, karma to me seems like a scarecrow just like the hell of Islam. I have never seen it work. They say that the conscience is the greatest court of humankind, but not all of us are affected by it.

Then comes the gods and deities. I don’t need to say that they are flawed beings. Once I read about the account of a man who asked for the help of Aphrodite to get the woman of his dreams. However, the goddess didn’t grant his request and showed him in his dreams that the reason for this being that the woman was already involved with someone else. I don’t know but after reading this I felt like laughing. Is this the same Aphrodite whose love knew no bounds? Now she is concerned about breaking a relationship. Do I have to mention how vengeful can gods be if they are rubbed the wrong way, even if they are the ones that have done wrong?

So, the way out is connecting to and embodying our Higher Selves, evolve and attain liberation. One of the way to do this is by opening the chakras. But why do we have to go through so much to free ourselves. I am sure that I was born number of times before I became aware of the situation. In the meantime, god knows what I went through. By using myself I am speaking for all people here. In addition, opening the chakras is no child’s play. There are many risks associated with it. Don’t get me wrong, I love challenges. But something seems wrong at the core.

So, we have so many beings like Christ who wants to help us. My question is how come many people are unaware of the truth and stuck in this matrix, if they have been helping us for such a long time. They are said to have exceeded time and space, are compassionate and are directly connected to the Creator Source. So, when will things change? When will the wait for Godot be over? The biggest question is where the Creator Source?
Is it a Deistic creator totally indifferent to us after it is done creating the universe? Does it want to help us by directly intervening, without sending enlightened beings who does not seem to have made much progress so far, but is unable for some reason? Or does it respect our free will? If it does then is it blind towards our suffering for the sake of maintaining free will? All the things humanity has or is going through is not plea enough? Today, if you see someone trying to kill himself will you just stand there because you respect his free will?

Why was this matrix created? Is this matrix originally a good place but was corrupted? If not then why would the Creator Source create such existence? Of course, this world is not devoid of love, happiness and peace, well sort of. But no matter how much we brush it off the fact remains that there is too much suffering and misery in this world. To me the Creator seems like a cruel being who has to throw us into this state, for whatever reason apples, oranges, Trees, knowledge, and just left us here to deal with it on our own. The beings out there who claim to be our allies (and its representative) seem to make not much progress and possibly not what they seem to be. For the great mistake we have made, it seems that he does not even want to look at us. Everything in this universe is the its creation including evil. Why even create evil? Sometimes I wonder if the Source is just a universal consciousness that can only work through us. But that does not make it exempt for creating misery and suffering.

I apologise to anyone if I have offended their beliefs by this post. I didn’t mean to. I hope this is the right section to post it.

[Nahemah]

Reason and unreason is exactly the right place for this topic, Napoli, no worries on that.

I don't believe in a creator source, so my opinion is that the reason why folk can't find it or relate to it without problems, is because of this: it doesn't exist.

With creator entities we always find the same issue, that of infinite regress, who created the creators? Where does it all begin from, was there a starting point or is there an eternal infinity somewhere in the universe/ multiverses?

I'm not a fan of singularities either.

As I don't accept the creator hypothesis, personally, my ability to contribute here is somewhat limited admittedly and I do not wish to insult any beliefs that are different from mine, of which there are many, no doubt.

Just my own tuppence of thought here.

[LoneWolf]

You know when you go to a restaurant and there's a fly as big as an apple in your soup and you are so fucking angry that you write a letter to the manager just to end your frustration?

This feels like it. Send it to God.

[Napoli]

You know when you go to a restaurant and there's a fly as big as an apple in your soup and you are so fucking angry that you write a letter to the manager just to end your frustration?

This feels like it. Send it to God.

The problem as I have discussed in the OP is that I can't find him and it seems that he won't be bothered [tongue2] .

[CCoburn]

A lot of questions here,

As far as the Source. I think a Singularity makes perfect sense since the Universe
is expanding, hence there being a centralized point to expand from. AKA The Primordial Point
or Kether. It's good to see the TOL agreeing with Science, as this was one of the first big things that
got me hooked.

The Source itself transcending any form of Mundane Human communication, but the intermediaries
that are spawned by it close to and above us in the hierarchy are the best bet. Yes, these would be
the Angels(ambiguous), The Kingdom of Yetzirah is the world of Angels, hence the Sepher Yetzirah.
Which is located in the center of the TOL with Tiphareth being in the center surrounded by six Holy
Spheres; The Hexagram.

As far as God and the problem of suffering. This is, and would be an even more dismal scenario if
this world is/was/will be the only one to ever exist. Suffering to any extent is most undesirable to any
creature that must undergo it, also to those who empathize with it. And yes Free Will definitely plays a
role in this, which is fueled by the Evil that is apparently innate in many Humans. Why does it exist? I
can only ponder that for the same reason that spectra are a integral part of Creation. Why are Evil things
created? For the same reason as anything else. Some take pleasure in Evil, just as another gets satisfaction
helping an old lady cross the street. And yes the Source, if it were in fact able to be so, would be indifferent
to this. And is more about creation of a perfected system, than the comfort of any Creature dwelling therein,
this transcending Human comprehension. But again, remember this is just a phase, or segment of Creation
and is not representative of it in its entirety. Your next incarnation may evolve beyond the half good, half evil
of this world.

These are just a few thoughts that I jotted down, and probably could have done better. But at least it's something.

Anyways, these are some of the most profound questions of all time Napoli! Maybe we can chisel away at it from
time to time. Things get increasingly difficult once the "reason" that is used as a primary tool in this world begins
to be transcended as we ascend into the Divine Realms. The other side of the Abyss, so to speak.

Peace

[CCoburn]

Also, I think when you go beyond the Singularity. Physics of any kind, and reason. Is
completely transcended. And concepts do become paradoxical. In lieu of anything having
a beginning and end. You end up with something that is more akin to the Hermetic Principle
of Rhythm. So you have an Eternal Rhythm of finite linear time segments, or Universes. And
if you expand this concept into M-Theory, then you end up with something that is not only Eternal,
but also Infinite.

Ciao!

[CCoburn]

Instead of a "Singularity" though. I would prefer to call it a "God Seed", or
"Godseed".

Seeds, scattered about the Infinite Aether, by the Cosmic Gardener.
There are infinite reflections(analogies) between the Micro and Macrocosms.

A never ending Fractal Tapestry! This can also be applied to the TOL.

Cheers

[LoneWolf]

The problem as I have discussed in the OP is that I can't find him and it seems that he won't be bothered [tongue2] .

If I couldn't send it to the CEO I would send it to a manager. Maybe if you didn't think about gods and deities as "flawed beings" you would find interesting insights through them. Just a thought. ;-)

Interesting insights Spida.

Let me add a bit of sauce to the Evil and Good discussion: Do any of us care that our white cells kill bacteria? Good and bad are part of what makes us walk right or left. My "Evil" would be to do things I feel bad doing -not my way. My "Good" to do what feels good and ultimately helps the whole: feed, reproduce.

Bacterium's "Good" is to try to cause trouble to our bodies. White cells "Good" is to destroy them. This way our bodies (the whole) gets stronger and grows... expands. Are bacteriums bad? From white cell's perspective Bacteriums are bad. But they are aligned, they do their purpose - they do their good.

When the tree was consumed and we could ponder about Good and Bad, in other words, when we could think and rationalize about such things, an extra layer of complexity was added to the equation. White cells could argue that bacteriums are doing their "good" and therefor not stop them. Would this be benefitial for our bodies? (absolute) The same can be asked about bacteriums thinking whether or not they should attack our systems.

This is why I have personally, for pragmatism's sake, dropped the concept of Good and Evil and substituted it with "in alignment" and "out of alignment". It's easier.

Cheers

[Napoli]

If I couldn't send it to the CEO I would send it to a manager. Maybe if you didn't think about gods and deities as "flawed beings" you would find interesting insights through them. Just a thought. ;-)

Interesting insights Spida.

Let me add a bit of sauce to the Evil and Good discussion: Do any of us care that our white cells kill bacteria? Good and bad are part of what makes us walk right or left. My "Evil" would be to do things I feel bad doing -not my way. My "Good" to do what feels good and ultimately helps the whole: feed, reproduce.

Bacterium's "Good" is to try to cause trouble to our bodies. White cells "Good" is to destroy them. This way our bodies (the whole) gets stronger and grows... expands. Are bacteriums bad? From white cell's perspective Bacteriums are bad. But they are aligned, they do their purpose - they do their good.

When the tree was consumed and we could ponder about Good and Bad, in other words, when we could think and rationalize about such things, an extra layer of complexity was added to the equation. White cells could argue that bacteriums are doing their "good" and therefor not stop them. Would this be benefitial for our bodies? (absolute) The same can be asked about bacteriums thinking whether or not they should attack our systems.

This is why I have personally, for pragmatism's sake, dropped the concept of Good and Evil and substituted it with "in alignment" and "out of alignment". It's easier.

Cheers

Like you I also believe that good and evil are subjective. But I was talking about misery and suffering. As for questioning as to why the Creator Source created evil, I actually meant why it created suffering.

We have to learn through suffering? Where does one draw the line? If I say that humankind has gone through too much, others will disagree with me. since evil is subjective. However, my point being that I see it unnecessary. I may sound harsh but the entire thing seems sadistic to me.

I have my own reasons to be suspicious of the intermediaries. If we are indeed the image of God then I don't see why we have to go through them. I didn't expand on it for appropriate reasons.

[CCoburn]

@LoneWolf

I am a fanatic when it comes to sauce, especially the kinds used for dipping
and general purpose condiments. So no complaints here.

@Napoli

I think you have a valid argument when it comes to suffering, and an amount that goes
above and beyond what is required for a dynamic system of creation. Or an amount needed
to satisfy a spectral contrast between bliss and misery.

You have certain base factors that cause pain and suffering such as Biological(Disease, aging).
Then you have environmental factors, such as overpopulation, natural disasters, and just harsh
elemental conditions in general.

This all seems reasonable and should be acceptable, but to find the tipping point. Or the offset that
creates an imbalance at one end of the spectrum. You really need look no further than your fellow man.
AND the infamous Free Will.

There are a couple ways that pain and suffering are augmented by humans. First you have humans with an
agenda where pain and suffering is implicitly caused, here we have indifference.

Then you have the subjective Evil where some take pleasure in causing misery.

The former is by far the most predominant. Just think of Corporations.

I agree with you Napoli, but people will need to change. To bring things into a reasonable perspective
for people such as yourself. There are just too many indifferent and Evil people in the world, and that
is the biggest problem.

As far as the source. It is beyond indifference, it is oblivious. It must develop, and go through phases
of Cosmic anabolism. All that exists now is a product of the Source, but took eons to evolve.

Which is to say, you must communicate with the Source in its current state of development, these would
be as I said, beings close to and above us in the hierarchy.

Peace everyone!

[CCoburn]

I have my own reasons to be suspicious of the intermediaries. If we are indeed the image of God then I don't see why we have to go through them. I didn't expand on it for appropriate reasons.

Image of God may not be meant to be taken literally.

If you look at the singularity as a Quantum Consciousness. Or put another way, as a Microcosm.
Then the Big Bang becomes an expansion of consciousness, from Microcosm to Macrocosm. The
evolution of God over the eons. God(I am becoming, not just I am).

So within this Macrocosm are reflected an infinite amount of Microcosms(Human consciousness and other
living things). As well as material reflections as well.

The material reflections or "Fractals" are seen in many things. Where a sample of a thing can be
representative of the whole. Examples are Trees, Clouds, Mountains, and the list goes on and on.

You have a lot of interesting things to comment on here Napoli,
Wish you well!

[Napoli]

My recent pondering has lead me to the conclusion like that the Creator Source is not a sentient being. It becomes sentient through all of its creations. Even then the question remains as to what triggered the creation of this universe if it is not sentient? 'The Poemandres' talks about the Source as something that is so powerful and transcendental, that it is beyond our comprehension. Is it possible that it is only an embellished language? The book makes it seems that the Source is sentient. The Kabbalah says that God has created the universe in order to know and experience itself. That means there is a good chance that it is a sentient being.

You are right Spida- we are all the reflection of the Creator Source. As a result, this reinforces my point that we don't need to rely on intermediaries to connect with it. We all have the divine essence in us and have our own Higher Selves. The gods and angels can be looked upon as beings from whom we can learn. We can learn from their mistakes. After all they are vastly experienced in this regard and are highly evolved. But they are not the only and ultimate way as many people believe, even when it comes to get in touch with our Higher Selves. They are not objective keepers of the Law of Karma and some of them do get in the way of our evolution, for unfair reasons. This is what I have meant by them being flawed.

[CCoburn]

Yes, what you have there has been a past Theory of mine.

The Source goes through eons of evolution, or transformation to arrive at this
current state we are in. The "Source" God is Becoming, Transforming! To what end
I am not sure.

The Source at it's Primal state in the past is not Sentient, but it evolved over billions
of years to experience Sentience through us perhaps. There is a lot to it, and this may
be a piece of the puzzle.

Peace Napoli

[LoneWolf]

I'd say we are part of it rather than some of it is in us.

One only knows by comparison. Two is needed for one to know half of it and so on.

Other parts might not be needed for you to connect with the Absolute, for it is within, however one isn't capable of reflecting and learning all there is to be learnt without more expressions of the All - you can't experience all of it in a dark room with nothing to see.

Splitting and making each part interact with eachother is not only faster and more practical, it is an elegant as fuck solution. Props to you and me.

[...]
But they are not the only and ultimate way as many people believe, even when it comes to get in touch with our Higher Selves. They are not objective keepers of the Law of Karma and some of them do get in the way of our evolution, for unfair reasons. This is what I have meant by them being flawed.

Care to explain? Do you think things can be in a way they shouldn't?

Cheers

[Caerdon]

Alright, alot of stuff covered here, but here's my two cents on a few of the matters on hand.

first and foremost, the idea that "Evil" and "Good" are absolute concepts separate from eachother. I won't go into the whole concept of the Balanced Universe thing, that gets to be too....ehh for me. But really, it's alot more complex than the simplicity of the concepts present themselves. Everyone has their idea on what is "Good", and everyone has an idea on what is "Evil". It differs between person to person, but generally, in a localized population, whether it be by location, ideals, or upbringing, there are similarities. However, go to a different part of the world, with different customs, beliefs, and/or ideals, the view on what is Evil and Good can vary greatly.
Hell, even the actions that are done in whatever intentions can vary greatly on if it's good and evil. Some of the greatest things that does the most good have been born out of actions that are considered evil, just as some things done in the name of good have caused the greatest harm and the greatest evil.
It's all in the perception of people after the fact on whether it is deemed Good or Evil. And it all gets so murky once you really look into it.
But this topic isn't about debating the concepts of good and evil, thankfully, as that would be a headache to read through and type out.

Now, I'll give what I think are the answers to what questions I can, in no particular order, just because I can.

You ask "Why was this matrix created". Honestly, I think it's just what won out in the end. You see, I think when the universe was coming into existence, there where countless upon countless of possible laws of nature/physics/existence/what have you clashing and vying for legitimacy. Eventually, after everything got settled, what we ended up with out of all the possibilities, was this universe in the current incarnation that we all know and love. We have physical laws and embodiments because that's what won out. We have thermodynamics and electromagnetism and laws of conservation because that is what happened to have played out.
It was neither inherently good, it wasn't corrupted, if anything it is and was apathetic and kinda skewed (in a literal sense, hence why the universe didn't annihilate itself in it's creation due to it being skewed more towards matter than antimatter... plus some other reasons regarding the golden Ratio and such). There is so much suffering and anguish in the world because it's easier to focus on and see/remember the negative rather than the positive. Besides, mankind is alot better in small groups than when there is a large group. An individual man is selfless but wary, his own survival more important even when he helps another, whereas man in a small group is caring, each putting those around him before themselves. But man in large groups become vicious and selfish, a force turning in upon itself as each looks upon the other in suspicion and greed.
Anyways, people focus on the bad because most of the things we see as good are how people generally live their lives every day. When someone does something bad, it is something out of the norm and thus something to pay attention to and remember.
As to why some external source may allow bad into the world... well, how else will you know what is good if there is nothing to contrast it? how would you know what joy is without sadness, peace without pain? how could there be progress without conflict? Honestly, it's only when things are taken to excess or to the extreme that it really turns out to be bad and more harmful than good.

For your Creator Source thing... there's a few options there really. First is the non-interference option, which means that we have basically been left to our own devices. It's still there, looking over us, but won't interfere with us.
Second is the silent-partner option, where it's there behind the scenes, but not really seen by the general population.
Third is the uncaring one. It's just out there, doing its thing, just another facet of the universe that has no investment in anything or anyone beyond itself.
Fourth is what I call the Ant-Farm option, where we are basically like it's ant farm. Looks after us, provides for us, but for some reason pays attention to us less and less and eventually goes off for periods of time at a time, only to eventually return to watch over and play with it again and see how things progressed without it.
The fifth one is the absentee option, where it's just not there for some reason. Whether it left, vanished, got destroyed, whatever, it's just gone.
The sixth one is the unintelligent one. This one basically means, there was no grand plan, grand scheme, no Divine intelligence, no mind behind anything, that basically its all been a fluke for how it all started.
The final one I'll mention (though there is alot more options) is the extreme intelligence option, where the Creator Source, assuming it has sentience, is so far beyond alien to what we would be able to understand, that we will never be able to hope to begin to understand it and the why on anything.

Anyways, that was a long answer for me to write, and I do want to leave with this... this isn't the only planet, this isn't the only reality. There is so much beyond here, and so much here that isn't obvious or fully seen/understood. I will probably write another reply later to more of your questions as there were alot that I didn't touch upon that I have thoughts/opinions on, but I think my wall of text is quite big enough for now

[Napoli]

Care to explain? Do you think things can be in a way they shouldn't?

I have already given one example in my very first post and explained a bit. Going any further will not be appropriate, since I don't want to offend anyone.

I just wanted to say that we should have more faith on ourselves instead of relying on other beings. Interaction with all parts of the creation is fine, but we should be more discriminatory in placing faith in higher beings. In the OP I have given my reasons for doubting them. We are not so helpless on our own as we think.

[CCoburn]

The above post is relevant, all you have to do is use extrapolation. There is a Dominance
Hierarchy here on earth, apparently we are at the top of it. In numerous instances, this does
not work out too well for the Creatures below us. They are wary of us, with good reason.

You could even fashion an analogy between the Creatures below us and how they are treated.
And us; the beings above us and a question of why Humans suffer so much, and as previously
stated Humans do just fine creating misery amongst themselves. Hence the Beings above us,
being indifferent as we are to the ones below us, and maybe in some cases augmenting our
misery. Although, supposedly the level of good increases as you ascend the Hierarchy, or at
least the four Qabalistic Worlds.

Anyways, I think Humans can potentionaly muster great power from within their own Microcosm,
without help from higher powers, but you know how humans are when it comes to Power. I would
like to say I am not in it for the Power. I like the way it makes me feel, and I am not sure of it's source.
You have to get used to not understanding completely what it is you are working with. But gain as much
wisdom as you can.

Also, I agree with what you said Napoli about having God within us. This would be the Spark of Life in the
Nucleus of our Being. It is in all living things. But the God Source itself doesn't exist as a whole being
anymore. It was a "Seed" that grew into a Universe. God is everywhere now. Omnipresent. BUT, and this
is a big but. God may transcend time, and it probably does. So it could emanate forward in time to reach you,
or your Spirit could travel backwards through time to IT. Something akin to traversing the TOL from Malkuth
to Kether. But to do this, you would have to pass through the Angelic, and Archangelic Realms to get to the
Divine one.

I guess it may also be possible for God's Primal Essence to manifest(be apparent) via it's Omnipresence.
Another way to connect to it perhaps.


Cheers

[CCoburn]

Having said all that, and in the end finally giving some vague hypothesis as a means; also
not wanting to appear hypocritical to myself. I do feel an intimacy, connection, and/or
interaction on some level to the Primal God Force, or just the ambiguous God. During
altered and normal states of consciousness, to varying degrees. I presume partly because
of informal meditation on Divine concepts off and on for a number of years.

So I say this despite what I said about going through intermediaries.
Breaking the Chain Of Command. Usually the ones that get skipped don't like it much.

I'd say the Sepher Yetzirah was obtained via conforming to the Chain Of Command Model.
Knowledge acquired through Angels. Yetzirah being the World Of Angels. So maybe this
is the most viable route. But be vigilant, or experiment with both. Maybe at times the decision
will be made for you.

Aloha!

[Napoli]

Having said all that, and in the end finally giving some vague hypothesis as a means; also
not wanting to appear hypocritical to myself. I do feel an intimacy, connection, and/or
interaction on some level to the Primal God Force, or just the ambiguous God. During
altered and normal states of consciousness, to varying degrees. I presume partly because
of informal meditation on Divine concepts off and on for a number of years.

How was it, tapping into the energy of the Source? Please, do share your experiences.

[cactusjack543]

America wide short changed but going down loll

[Daud]

There is no god, there is only ever existence. Existence will never end and never really began. It has always been and always will be. The source is the pure heart mind. The true nature of mind is abiding stillness. The reason we suffer is because we have spun a web and continue to look outwards instead of tapping into the universe that lies within our own hearts.

Om Muni Muni maha Muniye Svha.

[Napoli]

The reason we suffer is because we have spun a web and continue to look outwards instead of tapping into the universe that lies within our own hearts.

Isn't that escapism? Is it right?

[Daud]

It's not really escapism. Or at least i wouldn't really call it escapism.

Escapism implies hiding from the world and seeking indulgence in things that aren't there. In order to truly look within you have to abandon falsities and abide only in the truth. I'd classify the path to the cessation of suffering as the opposite of escapism, because it requires so much work to actually make progress on it.

[CCoburn]

How was it, tapping into the energy of the Source? Please, do share your experiences.

It appears you have incorporated a bit of sensationalism here, but that's okay

First off, I can never be sure that any Energy comes from God, Itself, unless God
explicitly tells me so, and that hasn't happened yet. OTOH, since God is the source of all
things, everything comes from it. All Matter and Energy. Seed to Tree, Kether to Malkuth,
Microcosm to Macrocosm, Singularity to Universe - to Multiverse. The Fractal Architect!

Anyways Napoli,

"how it was" is how I would imagine it to be
Cheers

[Napoli]

I have an extreme longing to get to know the Source. It is not only this but also because someone needs to know that I have a big fly in my soup [crazy] .