Fear of death

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Red Sun
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Fear of death

Post by Red Sun »

I'm not sure if it is the right subforum for this subject, but I couldn't think of a better one.

I'll try to keep this as short as possible. I've experienced fear of death since my youngest years. I don't mean fear in a context of a life-threatening situation, I mean it as something that is anxiety inducing, something I obsess about. I don't fear death as in leaving this world or this body. What I fear is non-existence, the annihilation of mind and counsciousness. I never fully dealt with this fear, though it fluctuated across the years.

I've been through a lot of different spiritual beliefs and went through a phase of absolute atheism. Currently I believe in a God or a First Cause if you will and some sort of afterlife. I believe that a lot of religions are partially true, but none of them is exactly right and none of them grasp the reality in full. I've been interested in the occult for a long time and recently started studying Initiation Into Hermetics by Franz Bardon. I've experienced things which I don't think could be explained by any form of science.

Still, I doubt. I have a continuous doubt if all of this is true. In the past few months I went through a lot of turmoil in my life. A lot of wonderful things, but also a great deal of soul-crushing ones. As a result I don't feel too stable and my fear got much worse. It disrupts my sense of peace and prevents me from achieving spiritual progress at a rate I would want it to achieve. It absorbs joy and happiness from my life and makes me feel like I live in a constant darkness. The irony of it all is that I am very prone to any form of spiritual practice. I feel, almost know that I could achieve great things if it wasn't for my anxious, restless mind.

My question therefore is... How do I get rid of the doubt and the fear? I thought the answer is to delve deeper into spirituality, but it's a vicious cycle - the fear would fade with spiritual progress, but the very same fear prevents me from achieving it.

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Re: Fear of death

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Red Sun wrote:
My question therefore is... How do I get rid of the doubt and the fear?
You don't.
You learn how to live with it, accept it and work with it. But it never goes away.

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Re: Fear of death

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It is so strange that I am in your situation and long for annihilation of my consciousness :). Anyway, if you choose to you can not go down that path and exist for eternity. If it comforts you it will be a really long time before you can make that decision. Who knows, maybe you will overcome your fear by then?
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Re: Fear of death

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What Desecrated said, plus you might find some comfort in knowing that nothing can ever be permanently destroyed. Sure, there are periods of non existence, but while you are in that state, Time will cease to exist along with you, that is, at least your perception of it which doesn't exist.

Every thing but the outer most layer of existence needs a beginning and an end. Otherwise that thing would be Eternal, and time cannot exist Eternally, but is needed for perception, and change.

There is a Theory in here called "Eternal Recurrence". Anyways, I understand how you feel to a degree. I myself have came in contact with what I would describe as "Death Energy" during Shamanistic Rituals and it was unsettling.

Find something more productive and less unsettling to be obsessed with,
Cheers
:)
Last edited by CCoburn on Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fear of death

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Sorry Napoli, your post wasn't there when I wrote that so...
What she said too.

:)

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Re: Fear of death

Post by LoneWolf »

Hi Red Sun

Just learn to astral project and in the process you surely will see your body from outside which is for me enough proof to live without fear of death.

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Re: Fear of death

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I was just thinking about what it is that I fear about non-existence actually. Is it that I simply won't know I exist or won't experience all the earthbound things I have now? No. I fear that I won't see the people or souls of people I care about, that I love. And even if I would somehow see them, that I won't recognize them or remember who they were and what we went through. Actually it's only this. If I wouldn't love anyone, maybe I wouldn't mind. I come from a Christian upbringing and for a long time thought I would see and live with all the people I cared about and who cared for me after death. In some ways I wish I would retain Christian faith, but I cannot believe in something based on wishful thinking alone.

A lot of spirituality is based upon destruction of ego and consciousness. This is something I struggle with too. Because if this view is right, what's the point? It's almost like atheists are right.

Anyway, thank you for your replies and excuse the negativity. It's causing me a lot of grief.

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Re: Fear of death

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LoneWolf wrote:Hi Red Sun

Just learn to astral project and in the process you surely will see your body from outside which is for me enough proof to live without fear of death.
Hmm, that seems like something achievable and which could answer some things... I will look further into this topic, thank you.

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Re: Fear of death

Post by Seabed »

Past life regression gave me soooo much, actually made me a complete person. I found much more love then ever before.

When loved ones leave this plane of existance, they won't leave you for good.
I already lost some loved ones, it's very painful and sad. I'm not saving my tears, but I am not desperate.

No need to be worried.
Last edited by Seabed on Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fear of death

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Re: Fear of death

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Red Sun wrote:I was just thinking about what it is that I fear about non-existence actually. Is it that I simply won't know I exist or won't experience all the earthbound things I have now? No. I fear that I won't see the people or souls of people I care about, that I love. And even if I would somehow see them, that I won't recognize them or remember who they were and what we went through. Actually it's only this. If I wouldn't love anyone, maybe I wouldn't mind. I come from a Christian upbringing and for a long time thought I would see and live with all the people I cared about and who cared for me after death. In some ways I wish I would retain Christian faith, but I cannot believe in something based on wishful thinking alone.

A lot of spirituality is based upon destruction of ego and consciousness. This is something I struggle with too. Because if this view is right, what's the point? It's almost like atheists are right.

Anyway, thank you for your replies and excuse the negativity. It's causing me a lot of grief.
You need to sort out your thoughts, right now it's just a mess. You probably need a couple of years of mental training to be able to look at this clearly.

----

The christian thing.
Nowhere in the bible does it say that you will go to this fluffy cloud thing and hang out with your friends and family.
I can quote you the exact bible parts if you want to study it for yourself, but it basically say that when you die, you will cease to exist, the dead has no thoughts, no emotions, no existence. There is no "heaven". There is no afterlife.
Then after the Armageddon, Jesus will accend to earth, create the new Jerusalem and resurrect the people that are deserving. So it's not your soul that will be with Jesus, it's your actual body.

So from a christian perspective, your death will be without memory, feelings, awareness. You will be absolutely nothing. So you don't have to fear being nothing, because you won't be aware of it anyways.

---

Then we get to the destruction of ego. I'm sure there are many different ways of looking at this but I will go from a Buddhist perspective, because that is what I know best. Buddhist believes that everything is suffering, and because you have needs and wants, you will be reborn and you will continue to suffer. The only way out of this is to remove all wants and needs, to remove your ego and find your true pure self (that isn't a self). And when you do this you will come to nirvana, a place where no wind blows, nothing exists, nothing lacks existence, and you, and everything will stop to exist.

----

Atheist believes that there is no soul or thought after death, when we die, we just die. Absolutely nothing happens. You have to remember that most atheist believes that our thought is anchored to our brain. No brain, no consciousness.
You seem to be of the impression that somehow you are going to become this non-existing blob that is just going to fly around in emptiness and not being able to do anything. But you, as you know yourself, will perish. There will be nothing.

----

And this scares the shit out of people.
It really does.
You can either try to rationalize it somehow or come up with some alternative facts that soothes you. But in the end: you will die. And it's scary, and you can either come to peace with it and go into the cold dark nothingness that death is, or you can go kicking and screaming into it. It's still going to happen.

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Re: Fear of death

Post by Napoli »

When one's consciousness is dissolved, one merges with the Universal Consciousness. We are all part of the latter, including your loved ones. Even the Buddhas can interact with us worldly beings if they want to.
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Re: Fear of death

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Seabed: Hmm, I remember having a hypnotherapy session with a shamanic hypnotist, or that's what he called himself at least. There were many things I realised, but there was also a moment I began to realise some of my past lifes. I remember when he said to me that if I won't continue with my progress, by self-hypnosis or otherwise, my ego will come into play and make me doubt this more and more as time passes. And this is exactly what happened. What seemed like something I was sure about is now along the lines of "maybe, probably not". I need to revisit these practices, they were very helpful.

Desecrated: Oh yes, I totally agree. A couple of years of mental training at minimal. That's exactly what I meant by hindering my spiritual progress. I'm sure I will be "stuck" at the beginning of Bardon's book for many years to come. I would like it to happen faster, but I'm aware of the dangers that could happen when progressing too fast than what is needed for an individual, so I accept that, whether I like it or not.

About Christianity... Yes I read most of the New Testament and some parts of Old Testament, so I know what you mean. I guess what I meant is that, there is a Bible and then there is what other people believe and what priests say. It's pretty ridiculous actually, because most of these people seem to not know or read the very book their faith is based upon. But yes, you are right on correcting me on that one.

The Buddhist way... I find a lot of what this religion/philosophy has to offer to be wise and good for the spirit. The meditation, the chakras, humility, self-discipline etc. What I don't buy however is that everything is suffering. The simple fact that I had periods in my life where I was a complete walking happiness means to me that this is simply not true. The final goal of Buddhism, nirvana, seems to me more like annihilation of oneself than some great thing you can achieve. Kind of like a suicide, but a suicide of your soul instead of your body. Which brings me to another topic...

...Atheism. I think a lot of my doubts come from this period of my life. I learned through this phase to be a skeptic about everything you don't have a proof of. This has it's own advantages and flaws. However, what didn't make sense for me, aside from the belief that what you have here is what you get, that there is no bigger picture, no objective meaning to life is that a lot of these people seem like fanatics. What should be a healthy skepticism, meaning "I don't know, but due to X I think there is/isn't Y" becomes I know. They say it with such a certainty, at the same time completely discrediting very valid signs of spirituality it's almost like they're a religious group, ironically. I could never settle into that. But, going back to my parallel to Buddhism, what I meant by that is that nirvana seems like what atheists believe will happen. That you just cease to exist and that's it. Maybe I don't have a proper knowledge on Buddhism to make such a statement, but it seems like the same thing.

And your last quote... You are right. This is what actually scares me. That no matter what I believe, what I do, the fact is I and all the others will die. What happens after death is also a given.

Napoli: Well if this is something that happens, I don't have a problem with it. I don't have a problem with God or Universal Consciousness as you called it (I think it's just semantics really) to have me as a tiny bit part of it's consciousness, just as a memory of what I did in some specific day in e.g. 2011 is now to me. I use a lot of "I" and "me" in these posts, but I truly don't believe I am that important. I just try to do my best and would like to know there is some meaning to it, some bigger picture. That it was all not in vain. Non-existence to me seems like it. Existing as a tiny part of something much greater is not.


Now as to address no one in particular, but rather everyone that has interest in reading this topic. This fear I have is something that is unresolved within me and I know I need to do something about it. However the state I am now in is the worst I had in many years. I think the reason for it, aside from simply observing the time pass by is that some of the people close to me - those that I knew, but also those that were important to me, but didn't get to know personally - passed away. At the same time new very important people entered my life. It all happened so fast, within the scope of just one year. Mix this with a great deal of earthly problems and a lot of stress and you have a deadly combination.

If it's of any explanation, I'm still in my 20s, so maybe it's just a time in life when there is a lot of things happening, but with a great deal of uncertainty. Maybe I shouldn't even be thinking about it, looking at other people my age, but it's just how I am. I don't want to change it. I want to change the negative connotations that come with it, though.

EDIT: My apologies if I offended anyone with my views on different religions and philosophies. It was not my intention, what I wrote is simply an opinion on the matter and should be viewed as such.

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Re: Fear of death

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Red Sun wrote:And your last quote... You are right. This is what actually scares me. That no matter what I believe, what I do, the fact is I and all the others will die. What happens after death is also a given.
I meant paragraph, not quote. Can't edit this post anymore. English is not my native so mistakes happen :)

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Re: Fear of death

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I may sound cheesy here, but I think that ALL sentient beings are important for the universe. Same goes for you Red Sun. Your attainment of spiritual attainment won't go in vain. Like the Buddhas and others enlightened beings you can help others to do the same. They are powerful beings who won't have any problem to stay close with their loved ones and look after them. But I admit that it won't be the same as living with them in the physical realm.

I agree with you that Buddhism seems to put a lot of emphasis on escaping the samsara rather than doing something about it. But a Buddhist friend of mine once told me that even if the creator of samsara, Mara, goes down or attains spiritual enlightenment, another will take his/her place. The cycle will go on for eternity. Just in the same way the universe will come into existence and disappear in an eternal cycle.
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Re: Fear of death

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That's a very comforting thought and I would like to believe that. As for living or rather existing with others in a different way than in the physical realm... I think you're right. When I ease on the doubts I think it can become only better. Now I may sound cheesy, but I always thought that the ultimate goal is reuniting with the infinite, boundless and almighty love. I don't mean love in a casual sense, although I believe it manifests partially in this world. I mean something much bigger that we can't even comprehend or understand. These moments when you're in a state of total bliss, care-free and feel genuine happiness, even for mere seconds? Almost everyone has such memories in their life - whether as a child or with a life partner, or simply laughing with others. I think that's as close as it can get in this realm. To me love represents light (and vice versa), while lack of it represents darkness. Darkness is not the same as evil, but evil probably derives from it. Wishful thinking? Maybe. But I have some arguments and experiences to back it up to some degree.

This may sound cliche, but I think that if people understood this simple matter there would be no conflicts, no wars, no making each other suffer. I think the problem is not with the ego itself, but with centering it in your life. I know there are those that focus only on themselves and do not interrupt directly in others' lifes in a negative way (or any way), but they are but a few. Most of these would gladly destroy you if it meant their own benefit.

What I think is a bit ironic is that I am somewhat fascinated by darkness. Not evil, mind you, I try to be as good to other beings as I can be, but there is some sort of beauty to be found in the dark. I was always fond of various forms of art based on it, the silent, quiet nights or even the cosmos itself. Feels like I'm contradicting myself here, but maybe there is good to be found on both sides of the spectrum, not really sure about that one.

I got a bit off-topic here, excuse me. It's just that I don't have that many opportunities to talk about this :)

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Re: Fear of death

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I also love the darkness and night sky. I don't consider darkness to be evil though. We need a balance between the two. If there was no daylight then even the night sky would become boring for me. Generally, I am drawn towards the dark though.
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Re: Fear of death

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My question therefore is... How do I get rid of the doubt and the fear? I thought the answer is to delve deeper into spirituality, but it's a vicious cycle - the fear would fade with spiritual progress, but the very same fear prevents me from achieving it.
I would highly recommend a basic mindfulness practice, of the kind taught by Joseph Goldstein, Mark Epstein, Tara Brach, etc. A large part of what these kind of meditative practices teach is how to recognize negative emotions as they interfere with your life and to learn to cope with them instead of allowing them to inhibit you. As a bonus, the skills are highly compatible with a system of training like IIH.
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he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

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Re: Fear of death

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If death really bothers you that much, you need to spend some time thinking critically about reality, and just how absurd it is.

Somehow, apparently, the universe came from nothing, then decided to spontaneously define the laws of physics, then out of pure chance decided to create life.

That sounds absurd by itself, but it gets even more absurd when you try to think of reality from a materialistic perspective. From a materialistic perspective, all things are essentially clockwork running on physics. If this is true, then that means that our reality isn't by chance at all, but is in fact necessary. From the start of the universe, moving on, you must exist at some point. Essentially, reality is a function of time, and your life is permanently embedded at some point within this reality function.

Next, realize that the universe, as we know it, is made up of a finite number of components, and thus there is a limited number of ways that these components can interact. This means that our reality has to evolve within the bounds of its possibilities, and is thus quite limited. In the case that there are a limited number of ways for abiogenesis to occur, there are then a highly limited number of ways for life to evolve from abiogenesis. You are effectively engineered to exist by destiny.

Essentially, it looks like some "god" picked our reality's components, their interactions, and then triggered the start of the universe to see what would develop. There's no intelligent design, because the design was made in an indirect way. If evolution is correct, then we weren't put here, but the exact steps required to get us here were accounted for, so we were basically planned for. It's the difference between saying "boom, let there be a human", and growing one inside of a test tube. Both are designed, one is just slowly developed.

Next, if you're worried about dying, you should think about what exactly dying is. Take any material object, and try to decide what it's made of. You'll get an infinite hierarchy of items, until somehow the item "just appears". Tree -> wood -> atoms -> quarks, ... At some point, things just have to be defined, as is. Reality is about as logical as "it's just there", like you're watching a movie, but there's no real reason animations occur how they do. Now think about what you are made of. You are made up of "just is, material".

In other words, the most legitimate way to think about reality is that you are essentially in a computer simulation where objects are "defined", not made, and causal relations are arbitrarily decided, "programmed", not logically made.

Finally, you can't be in a computer simulation because that would mean that the computer simulating you would also have to be simulated, thus causing an infinite regression.

So, you are in a matrix with no "reality" to wake up to. Reality is all thought stuff. Matter cannot create thought; only predestined systems. Thought creates matter. Math cannot generate a painting, only a mind can create a painting by mixing concepts at indiscrete boundaries. The best math, a machine, can do, is copy what people do already. You cannot make a "red" or a "pain", only material objects which express these things. In the same way, your body does not make your consciousness, but instead, it expresses it.

If you want to not fear death, then figure out what death is. You can never guarantee a life after death, but you can come to an understanding that reality in no way prevents the existence of a life after death. At all.

I don't know the answer to the following question, but I'm curious as to what your answer would be:

If consciousness is expressed through a body, like red is expressed by an object, then what happens to "red", when the red object is destroyed? Is the red erased? Is the consciousness erased when a body dies? If I bleach all red from an object, what happens to the red? Can you even quantify red?

Side note: If you see any holes in my post, please notify me so that I can enhance my perception of reality.
When everything makes too much sense, that's when you know you've got none. It's this confidence in reality that makes me uneasy.

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Re: Fear of death

Post by Red Sun »

Once again, thank you for all the posts and sorry for the late reply.

blindwake I'll address you separately since you wrote so much and a lot of stuff I dwelt upon.

The thing with everything happening by chance isn't that impossible to imagine for me, although I admit, it seems like some sort of miracle. However, your words "Somehow, apparently, the universe came from nothing" reminded me of my own thoughts I had at times. Because I don't understand that too, according to scientists and - especially - atheists you see in the media, nothing can come from nothing. Which makes no sense in the atheistic perspective, because that means The Big Bang - or whatever happened before it - couldn't be, couldn't exist. Where did it come from, if it couldn't come from nothing? Was it just "there"? Makes no sense based on what science teaches. Therefore I had an argument, that there needed to be some kind of God, Creator, First Cause (use any name you like) which exists outside of time and is infinite, outside of physical laws. Then this God could create something which is finite. And this argument negates the argument which says "well, who created God then?". No one and nothing had to create God. God just was, is and will be. That makes a lot of sense to me at least.

You make a lot of sense using the argument of destiny. Together with "universe happening by chance" it seems like a paradox. And we all know how logical paradoxes are - they aren't. Maybe it even is a paradox. This is some heavy philosophical stuff, I'll give you that.

I agree with your point about evolution. I don't understand how anyone could deny it, there are hundreds of proofs for it, however agreeing that God created it in some way makes sense to me too.

You lost me in your point about movies and animation and then again with things being made and defined. I got confused here to be honest.

Very interesting point about matter and thought. Something for me to ponder about for some time. Nothing more to add as of now.

The point about no guarantee... I guess I'm just scared by the unknown too. It correlates quite "nicely" with the fear of death. Still, after reading your post it slightly receded. No, seriously, not fully, but... A lot of stuff makes sense actually. And I will not stop at this post too. I don't want to desperately look for the truth, but I will look for it nevertheless. Things like that take time of course.

As for your question, depends what you mean by "destroyed". If it means "broken to pieces", then no, red still is there. If it means "erased", then red will be erased too, I think. And if you bleach it... Well, I don't know.
I can't quantify red, but don't understand what you mean by that in the context of death.
I'm not sure if I understood this question correctly, but tried to answer it as much as I currently could.

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Re: Fear of death

Post by Gate »

Thank you everyone for sharing! I struggle with fear on and off myself - especially as I do entheogens & repeatedly attempt astral projection (fear really seems to keep me going back to my body lol). But I'm finding that if you come from a place of pure ego-less love, nothing can really stop you :)


It can be illustrated by the different views here. There's the brighter, 'positive' view:
Napoli wrote:I may sound cheesy here, but I think that ALL sentient beings are important for the universe. Same goes for you Red Sun.
Napoli wrote:When one's consciousness is dissolved, one merges with the Universal Consciousness. We are all part of the latter, including your loved ones.

...and the darker, 'negative' view:
Desecrated wrote: ...you, as you know yourself, will perish. There will be nothing.

...You can either try to rationalize it somehow or come up with some alternative facts that soothes you. But in the end: you will die. And it's scary...

Neither is wrong, but they are two entirely different energies. I have this strange feeling that your thoughts will create your reality. I'm definitely going to choose to fill myself with positivity and define the truth that fear can't touch me haha. I will die by merging into source :)

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Re: Fear of death

Post by blindwake »

When I asked you what you thought happened to the red, I was relating that to death, because what happens to the red is essentially the same thing that happens to you at death. If you bleach the red, red does not cease to exist, it just gets removed from the object. You can't erase a concept. Like red is a concept, so are you. So, if red still exists as a thing after it is removed from a place, what happens to you if you are removed / die?

In my personal opinion, consciousness is completely separate from the brain, but does not exist as an object. It is an idea, like a memory register, that can be written to, read from, but has no physical representation. So, as an analogy, your body would be a PC and your consciousness would be the monitor, that does not think, etc. It just is. Not, I think therefore I am. Just, I am.

I don't believe in God. Any god must have another god, so, because I know that I am, and that it is illogical for me to be created, I am god. You are god. We're all God, and we're all the same person, just focusing on separate perspetives. If one were to assume an immortal soul, which would be logical, because you cannot create a soul, or else something had to exist before the soul, and you get an unresolvable causal chain. This immortal soul, lasting forever, would have to be able to experience every single permutation of every single possible life, inevitably, even if it took an infinite amount of time, because it cannot die.

The animation thing: for every causal thing you see in this reality, there is no logical reason for it to occur. There is nothing about oxygen, ignition, and fuel, that has fire in it, yet it creates fire, and not a portal to the kingdom of the flying spaghetti monster. The laws of physics themselves should have a reason to be how they are. This, again, is an infinite causal chain. Science uses itself to prove itself. It observes that certain situations do certain things, then uses that as proof, and says it has made "laws". Stuff just happens. The reason your car turns on when it does, is the same reason a movie's scene can fade out, or a movie can use visual effect, or a bullet moves on a screen. Why does a gun on a movie cause a bullet to fire? Now, why does a real gun make a bullet Fire? What's the difference? You think you know the movie is fake, and you think that reality is real.

Sorry, I didn't explain myself with the definitions thing. Essentially, because it doesn't make sense for things to have beginnings or endings (infinite creator chain), stuff just is, and must be ready to come into reality at any time. Stuff is defined much like a programmer has game objects defined and then loads them. You don't think, reality loads thoughts. Reality is a state machine. There is it only the present moment, and then the present moment recursively modifies itself based on itself. It just loads and deletes objects from the "scene". I don't believe in death. I treat consciousness as non local, and when the body dies, it's like a human turning off their Xbox because their Call Of Duty character just died.

Side note:
If you can prove death to me, or try to explain why the brain creates consciousness, I would appreciate that. But first, conclusively explain what the brain is made out of.
When everything makes too much sense, that's when you know you've got none. It's this confidence in reality that makes me uneasy.

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Re: Fear of death

Post by Chatelle »

This may or may not be relevant to your cause, so I apologize in advance if it seems like an odd advice.

At 14 I was obsessed with death, I thought of it constantly, and I feared it greatly. I'm both pagan and also a believer in putting theory into practise. Seeing (or sensing) is believing, after all. So I conjured up a theory. If I "die" during lucid dreaming - would that reveal what happens after death? It turns out it did and it didn't.. I was asleep, and I felt all my life force being drained out of me. All that was left was the sense of me. And I sort of fell through the Earth and, I came up on the other end, like it was some sort of opposite Earth but still the same. Like stepping into a mirror and coming out again and everything kinda looks the same. I stood on grass when I left; I stood on grass where I came up. I know this story doesn't make sense at all, but it made me calm about death, and I've been accepting of it ever since. I understood that the sense of me will never go away, it's only my shell that's re-shaping itself.
Alea iacta est

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Re: Fear of death

Post by Red Sun »

blindwake, I have no idea what happens. I could speculate on your questions and try to answer, but the thing is - I don't know. I just don't. Recently I sort of realised that the more I try to think about it, the more questions there are, instead of answers. Maybe I should look in the other direction - practicing instead of thinking. Seeing what is, not thinking what could be. Kind of like science, but not really, although a bit similar. Astral projection sounds good or any kind of mysticism.

I cannot prove that brain creates consciousness. I also cannot prove that it doesn't. I can list you a few things that are keeping me on the atheists side though - not that I agree with them, because I have some arguments for the other side of the fence too, but it makes me wonder:

1. Anesthesia. I remember that when I was to be operated and got anesthetized I just sort of "wasn't there". It was like one moment I went to sleep and immediately after I woke up, even though in reality a few hours passed. I knew when I woke up that it was few hours (because the operation ended), but my mind was almost surprised, like I ceased to exist for a short time. If soul exists, why did I feel this way? Why no dreams, no feeling of being there for a few hours (like when you're sleeping and even when you don't remember your dreams, you know and feel that some time has passed)? Where was my soul then?

2. Amnesia and other brain malfunctions. If consciousness exists outside of the brain, why people change so much when they suffer from catatonia, great memory loss, Alzheimer's, brain cancer etc.? Shouldn't a person remain the same, indifferent to whatever happens to their body? If a thing such as a disease can cause so much havoc, what happens when the brain dies? What's left?

3. Dreams. If consciousness exists, why do I not know by default (so let's ignore lucid dreaming for a moment) that I am dreaming? And also, why do I act differently? I often dreamed of things I would never do in my waking life for various reasons. Shouldn't I behave the same way when dreaming and not dreaming?

4. Dead men tell no tales. No one ever died and then came back to life again (unless you believe in Jesus or something) to tell the story about it. We just can't know until we die. This is a neutral argument, not exactly for and not exactly against. Sort of a middle ground.

So these are some of my doubts put into four points. Wonder what you might think about them.

As for God, I'll try to keep it short as to not start another discussion - I believe in God the same way you believe in a soul. I don't believe God has any beginning or an end, It (for the lack of better word, "He" is not a good one as it implies God has something to do with gender) just is. It just exists. Thus no other god needed to create God. Thus explained finite universe and even scientists say that "something cannot happen from nothing" - well if universe is finite, then it had to have a beginning. Then if God/Creator doesn't exist, universe happened from nothing and we have a nice contradiction here. Unless universe is infinite, but if it is, I want some proofs for it. So far none of them and a lot of arguments for universe being finite.


Chatelle, no it makes perfect sense actually. Thing is, did it really show you what happens after "real" death, or was it your brain creating the images? You don't have doubts that it was the former, but... I do. I don't wish to discredit your experience at all, I just can't help but take a skeptic side on this. However, it is a really interesting experience and who knows, maybe it is true after all?


Gate, I never understood the concept of thoughts creating reality, at least not in the literal sense (so I don't mean it in a Buddhist way, as with thoughts creating the life and reality that we see etc.). One of the arguments I have against it is this: if thoughts create reality and I decide with my thoughts, that thoughts don't create reality, then what happens? Isn't this a paradox?

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Re: Fear of death

Post by Cerber »

So nobody here has any recollection of Death?
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