Are you secretive? Why should the occult be "occult?"

[Frumens]

Hi friendly occultists.

I was reading Franz Bardon last night, and he recommends that magicians not talk about their paths except with those who also want to learn. I don't think that Bardon is the be-all-end-all of occultism, but this is an interesting thing to think with. I've been thinking about why the occult is occultus, secret. My current understanding is that these arts became secrets (1) so that their power wouldn't be abused and (2) so that the knowledge wouldn't be lost, à la Alexandria.

How secretive are you in regard to your practices, and why? When someone asks about your spirituality, do you overtly say that you're a magician/shaman/witch/et cetera? Do you have any fear that you might be persecuted or lose friends and family?

At the moment, I'm not sure how secretive I should be, or want to be.

[Etar]

I say only what is needed. I don't hide my opinions and beliefs, but I try to be as secretive as possible about magick because, well, it's personal stuff. The only ones who know about what I do are those EXTREMELY close AND open-minded (needless to say, those can be counted on the fingers of one hand). If they're not, I try to change subject and don't give specific information. And still, I don't use the "m" word.

To be fair, there are reasons for the secrecy, but I don't feel like writing much right now. Maybe later.

[Evander]

Amorte Frumens!

Actually, knowledge has been lost due to extensive secrecy of occultists. I would prefer all this to happen in more scientific fashion, with people discussing a possibilities, forming a theory, conducting experiments and comparing results. But lets be honest, who am I kidding?

As for being secretive, I don't really think it is a good idea for me to go around saying : Hello, my name is Evander and I am a necromancer. Apart from the fact that this sounds pretty retarded, I don't need anyone to know that little detail about me.

Usually, when asked about magic by someone who looks decent, I claim to be psion(energy mage) which is true by the way. No need to scare them away by bringing out my dead.

This is rare, though. Most of the magic I am dealing with today is too exotic for most occultists, they prefer their circles, tarot decks, spiritual masturbation, feeling of greatness and arguing about who has the longest wand. People usually look confused when I start to discuss using telekinesis to manufacture carbon nanotubes and mono-molecural objects, or moving a wheel of a dynamo and generating electricity with magic. They don't take talking about stimulating growth of stem cells by means of bioenergy too kindly either.

So it seems that these days I have to be secretive even when amongst the occultists.

[Q789]

To further elaborate on what etar said. I think that it is most unwise to tell anyone you are practising magick-why? because we live in an ignorant society and i promise they will persecute you. I have experienced it many times. Most of them think you worship the devil or some shit.
As far as secrets go- you see the furether you advanmce spiritually the more abstract it gets. this is why so many mystics use poetry to communicate their experiences. ONLY the magickain and others that have attained these levels of consciousness can effectively communicate about this to each other. A majoirty of the population does not-and some understand intelluctually at least(and think they have experienced it). - now that is a secret isn' it? YOU HAVE TO EXPERIENCE IT TO UNDERSTAND IT.

Q

[Stukov]

I am wit evander about having it open for the purpose of scientific study (with exception we can't always use instruments of the physical world to take measurements. But we can do experiments to narrow down what things aren't then look at the remaining possibilities to hypotheses.

Far as secrecy personally? I went through a period of time I was...well I confronted the truth everywhere and brought it to the light. As I do rather dislike secrecy. The problem was that, because I was very connected and powerful, it meant I saw it all. When I saw the shadow truth that others were afraid to confront I brought it forward and since there was so much hidden it was endless.

What I found out about the truth is that it is like honesty. People for the most part deep down want it, but they can't handle it all at once. It is like light. When it is dark out any bit of light can help you. But turn on a flood light and it blinds you. Focus it more and it can burn straight through you.

I guess when the truth, the Truth is as bright as bettlejuice, you just gotta have some time for your eyes and whatnot, some time to focus and absorb it. Always give the truth, just not all at once unless they say they want it and can handle it.

[Stukov]

Im am laughing out loud as soon as I finish this, Sunspots by NIN comes on pandora.

[cactusjack543]

someimes we need to tell mass truthfor some in life fear the truth and give half truth as i read yesterday as well about secrets. must be 5 posts talking about wtf why didnt i know that. with half truth we could pawn the world alien invassion many things perhaps one day half truth will extinction of mankind. when things are important and yesterday was we need to make sure we are similar to a collective. time is short sometimes at times we have none to spare

[Stukov]

someimes we need to tell mass truthfor some in life fear the truth and give half truth as i read yesterday as well about secrets. must be 5 posts talking about wtf why didnt i know that. with half truth we could pawn the world alien invassion many things perhaps one day half truth will extinction of mankind. when things are important and yesterday was we need to make sure we are similar to a collective. time is short sometimes at times we have none to spare

We do NOT want to be a collective.

[Clockwork Ghost]

Im not secretive at all about my beliefs - I'm completely in the open on my views on magic(k) and the occult in general. Yes, Ive lost friends and quite a few people just link my mental illness to the whole thing because its simply easier to do so.

The Durutti Column have a song with a line that goes 'when the world is no longer watching, stay faithful to your drug', and I use that thought a bit - the fact that magic studies and esoteric practices are a sort of drug that keeps us mages going, and I do remain faithful, both in sight and out of sight of the public eye.

The occult is secret because its not main stream, and most people just think its all a load of bollocks, so keeping it removed and clouded from casual observance is sort of important if you want to live in the 'Real World'. Stuff that for a game of soldiers, I say - live the magic, let it fill you and give yourself over to it like a surfer riding waves.

[SharnNZ]

I am surrounded by ignorance, and material minded people, within my own family there is myself, and two who are Pagan. They are more open than I am, but I guess simply because where we live most people just assume they are "hippies" and move along, they don't really turn heads or make people seriously wonder hehe, where as what I could talk about would be a little more "fearful" I guess, simply because it is more extreme and less understood than the outsiders view of paganism. So I am fairly secretive...those closest to me know I am "spiritual" but they don't know how, and they don't ask, so I don't tell.

[question2]

[Frumens]

I've told a couple of friends a smidgen about my studies, and received mixed results. I discovered that one of my best friends actually used to read the tarot herself, and dabbled in occult matters. However, those things were only a hobby half in jest for her, so I felt reluctant to tell her that the occult is anything more than a hobby for me. My other friend had never heard of tarot before, and although his mother's side of the family has a lot of "superstitious" beliefs, he's a hard skeptic, and my gut told me to stop talking about the occult with him as soon as possible.

I'm going to be working at a diversity/tolerance workshop for young adults next month. The workshop has a segment on religious tolerance, so naturally, I've been pondering if I should reveal myself, and to what degree.

I also have plans to go to a sort of pagan meetup club at a neighboring college in the future. I'm not sure what to expect from that, but I think that I'm more or less optimistic.

Overall, I'm living and learning. It's kind of disappointing, but, such is life.

[Vashta]

I think in many cases it is due to the attitudes people at large have towards the occult. Not everyone, but, many mainstream religions, and dogmatic atheists (as opposed to non-dogmatic atheists who understand that everyone is entitled to their beliefs). In a lot of those cases, sharing our beliefs can be met with fear and ridicule from the person you're talking to. Frankly it can make for strained relationships. I think it's gotten a lot better since the New Age movement, there are a lot more people open to things like Tarot, spiritual healing etc, which at least gives us "safe" topics to test the waters.

I think the problem is dogma of all types. It's hard to really get someone to listen to your point, so a lot of time it just makes life easier if it's a little hidden. That said, it is possible. My grandmother would always invite Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons in when they came to her door, sit down for a chat, and try to convert them to atheism by asking questions they couldn't answer, and encouraging them to ask their elders to answer any questions they couldn't. She would occasionally see them a second time, when they come back to tell her they're not allowed to visit her any more. I have a lot of respect for my granny, she was a remarkable woman, even if I disagree with her religion

[cactusjack543]

im more secretive of the things im jealous of watching the rich eat at reasaurants buy at malls or people driving owning cars camping traveling so forth im surrounded by it at times not wanting to go out side with no money. jealous of the power of gov laws and those as well making laws out of jealousy in my home. some people in society bielieve in seperation exists only in family. perhaps material type people of as well very secretive with no morals. very good poem on bottom forum seems dedicated after me well i must say gl on that one i suppose even on this site im not going to be able to trust people

[Clockwork Ghost]

im more secretive of the things im jealous of watching the rich eat at reasaurants buy at malls or people driving owning cars camping traveling so forth im surrounded by it at times not wanting to go out side with no money. jealous of the power of gov laws and those as well making laws out of jealousy in my home. some people in society bielieve in seperation exists only in family. perhaps material type people of as well very secretive with no morals. very good poem on bottom forum seems dedicated after me well i must say gl on that one i suppose even on this site im not going to be able to trust people

I agree - we often are secretive concerning things we're jealous of, though using the word 'jealous' instead of 'coveting' seems a bit harsh. I covet things in secret, but I'm not sure if its because I'm jealous of the people who have that thing or not.

This is something I really need to think about - thanks for sharing. [thumbup]

[Vashta]

It's a shame the prejudices we can experience, even in our own communities. People can be quite narrow-minded, and it goes a lot further than our spiritual beliefs. It's getting better with time, but we're still in the dark ages on a lot of things - just look at the marriage equality debates going on right now, at the level of opposition, and look back 60 years.


Those aren't quite the same issue, but they are branches of the same tree. A tree that needs to be hewn down. Personally, I consider our spiritual practises to be our religions, and the discrimination we can face for it to be just the same prejudice behind holy wars.

I don't lie if I'm asked, or if it comes up in conversation, I usually go with "shaman" as my description, sometimes "omnitheist".

[Stukov]

The marriage thing is silly in my opinion because the government doesn't have any place issuing marriages. Marriage in terms of law is giving another person power of attorney over you and your estate. And you can literally give anyone POA if you fill out the paperwork. Imo, the .gov should just issue everyone (same and opposite sex people) civil unions and let marriage be a social institution like it once was letting people define it however it pleases each of them.

[Vashta]

Mmh, in a lot of ways I think that's an attachment to the word "Marriage", it's got some connotations and implied meanings that you don't get with "Civil union", as older words tend to, even though they are functionally identical (in most places). Personally I think it's right for "Marriage" and "Civil union" to be available to everyone. Ultimately, that's a gesture of union between two people who love each other, and IMO, they should have the right to choose whether it's a civil or religious ceremony. I think just because the word is so widely used, they'd still refer to it as marriage either way.

But, we're straying off-topic here, and it's a topic I feel is worth a thread all to itself, at least

[Stukov]

By law in the us civil union and marriage is identical. People are trying to use law to define a word (aka defense of marriage act at a federal level).

Nothing good comes from trying to use law to control others. It should only be used as mediation for trespassers and victims.

[SharnNZ]

I must admit at times I am "torn" between the secrecy and wanting to tell people...(torn might be a little dramatic sounding, can't think of a better word right now) sometimes I want to talk to people about it, because...it does seem to scare them...as I said earlier, most people around my area see pagans, and those who practice Wicca as well... hippies, they seem blind to the spiritual side of things, and think it is all about smoking weed and hugging trees, and thanking mother nature endlessly. But you mention the word Occult...and you must be something "evil", you must like living in the dark, creepin in the shadows I don't lol....but it is that response that make me want to say "hey, it ain't like that, and I am actually a nice person" [happy2] Quite surreal how different the views can be....

But then, there is a piece of me, that feels like, why should I justify my beliefs and practices...and that other part of me that does like having something that is "mine" my lil secret...

[question2]

[dRider]

Maybe it needs to be secret, but I've always believed that we should be us, not necessarily flaunting it, but if it would otherwise be a natural part of our public life, so be it. Kind of like when a dom has his girl tied up and on a leash, but goes to a restaurant, anyway.

[cactusjack543]

secret is like manipulating people grasping the air in hope no one finds out the desired edge we as witches seek in our everyday lives securing things everyday doubling up gaining faith the edged is so desiredd at times we desire control with all knowing religion etc has the market cornered. its this form of justice this inhumane act upon our desired edge. pawning or not to be pawned fullfilling lives at what distance will we go to escape and fullfill our dreams. ive tasted power it has a bad taste ive seen so many outside forces making law in my house for the most part these days a promise to meet up and all party together. the lingering injustice in every home the unknowing things and forces that linger in every home. this type is of secrecy nature that only a handful of people in life actually obtain a peace within this injustice within our homes. oh the silence it echoes the praire like ritual days praying in secricy to their desired forces never a word uttered but total respect. some things in rituals need to be kept safe secured and secret. nerds have underground basements some never seing the light of day they get special privilages trading in part of their life. the loneliness sets in fear takes it toll. but power and imprortant people are great motivators.

i saw a show once movie 300 real good movie spiritual advisors favored by the spiritual realm with evil doers as masters. like slaves will be never seing the light of day. but its a whole new world knowledge is but an escape from bondage where you feel best at. times where you find solutions for the world so as to have world peace however never enjoying it. i bielieve places and people existed like this however this day an age the greatest ones valued most highly are the natural ones human naturally evolved such spiritualists without favors without rewards the most dealeasts warriors you would have the pleasure to meet.

[Frumens]

Martin Faulks has said that when you speak of hermetics, it's almost as if some of the energy behind your studies dissipates, and you lose your direction. I think that I've felt that dissipation.

[Etar]

That doesn't make any sense. How many mages we know that talked and wrote about the occult and were successful? Crowley, for instance?

A personal example: I have two friends who know about my practices. Still, I couldn't be doing better than I am doing now.

[Frumens]

That doesn't make any sense. How many mages we know that talked and wrote about the occult and were successful? Crowley, for instance?

A personal example: I have two friends who know about my practices. Still, I couldn't be doing better than I am doing now.

Well, I can't really know what he meant by that sentence on his website. He likes to make Youtube videos about hermeticism and write books about other stuff. As for me, I feel like I put myself at risk (socially, professionally) when I talk about hermeticism without knowing how the listener will react. It's fun to talk about it with an open-eared person.

[LandOfShadows]

All,

Occult means Hidden Knowledge.

I feel its hidden within us, governed mainly by the Moon, and the true 13th month cycles, this has been broken by the Calendar based on 12th months and taboo and media's twist placed on the Occult as being demonized. People of todays world are seperated from the Occult, and re-gaining that bond is something I feel needs to be unlocked and regained via understanding of self and the universal self, the astral self/inner self or soul if you will, some will call this the Merkabah or the life chariot, as we are all Stars.

I feel this should be shared to all, only some will listen, those engadged or estute will understand, and in turn may unlock understanding in them.

Secrets are only secrets to those who chose to be closed in hearing, mind and self, those who preffer the material and social spun version of reality that is pumped through the box in the coner of their living rooms while eating and drinking items that rot their minds.

That isn't me saying we are better than they, or that I understand more than them, its just me having a slight rant [devil]

So much to say, however don't want to bore on one of my first posts.

LoS
Steve