Patron deity has confused me... forms/versions significant?

[Occultess]

Ok. I'm not well versed in all this Patron Deity stuff, but I think I've got one now (or am in the process or something). I think it's possible that this deity has been trying to get through to me for years, but I wasn't picking up on it. If that is the case, he has come to me in different forms/genders. His respective Egyptian, European and Mexican forms.

Anyways, I think I just had a conversation with him (I've been tricked by spirits too often to be totally sure) and near as I can tell, what he was saying to me was that YES he is the same as the other form of him (the female one, whose candle I had semi-recently aquired), but that YES it does matter which one of them I attached myself to. That was confusing already. Then, when I asked him which one he wanted me with....it wasn't him. It was the candle one. That confused me, too.

Why would a patron diety care which form you were with? Do you think there is a reason for this? Like...maybe he thinks that that form has aspects that his other form does not that would better suit me or something? Or that he prefers, male forms with male humans and female forms with female humans?

Do you think he might trade me around on his different forms depending on what he thinks I need/am ready for as time passes by?

[Jack-o-diamonds]

Ok. I'm not well versed in all this Patron Deity stuff, but I think I've got one now (or am in the process or something). I think it's possible that this deity has been trying to get through to me for years, but I wasn't picking up on it. If that is the case, he has come to me in different forms/genders. His respective Egyptian, European and Mexican forms.

Anyways, I think I just had a conversation with him (I've been tricked by spirits too often to be totally sure) and near as I can tell, what he was saying to me was that YES he is the same as the other form of him (the female one, whose candle I had semi-recently aquired), but that YES it does matter which one of them I attached myself to. That was confusing already. Then, when I asked him which one he wanted me with....it wasn't him. It was the candle one. That confused me, too.

Why would a patron diety care which form you were with? Do you think there is a reason for this? Like...maybe he thinks that that form has aspects that his other form does not that would better suit me or something? Or that he prefers, male forms with male humans and female forms with female humans?

Do you think he might trade me around on his different forms depending on what he thinks I need/am ready for as time passes by?

if you don't mind my asking, what deity is it? thoth?

anyway, i am no authority on the matter, but i doubt he (if it is him) is telling you to become attached to the female version because he prefers male followers. i follow a male deity that seems to be just fine with me being female..

that being said, it sounds more like to me that the female version probably has aspects that would suit you better or could teach you something you need to know.

i would just stick with the advice and see where it takes you. no harm in it.

good luck :>

-jack

[Azkhet]

There's a lot of reasons why he may have told you to deal with the female aspect. It depends also on the context of the ritual - if you asked for some kind of general teaching or guidance, for example, he may be uninterested in pedagogy, where the female aspect may be willing. Maybe he thinks aspects of your personality are better suited to the female aspect. It could be that whatever problems you have she is better suited to handling. Some spirits will not let you approach them directly - in the Falxifer system, for example, you're discouraged from approaching the Blood-Mother, Qalmana, until you have worked with Qayin for a while. Attempting to do so may mean you are rebuffed - sort of like what it sounds like the male aspect of your deity did to you. Without knowing what god you're trying to deal with, what you asked him for, and why, though, it's sort of hard to diagnose.

Did you whistle up the female aspect and ask her what the story is?

[Nahemah]

I agree with the above posts. [grin]

I don't think it's a gender bias,generally,just that this is the form that would be most helpful and useful for you at the present.

Did you whistle up the female aspect and ask her what the story is?

I think this is a great idea. [thumbup]

[Occultess]

Thanks, all those who responded!

I'm going to try to answer a bunch of stuff in this post, so bare with.



No, I haven't asked the female aspect what the deal is, but that does sound like a good idea.

I'm not sure I should say which deity/deities are in question here. Maybe it's not a big deal. It just seems like so much in the occult/spirituality/magick is just...really personal and it has a negative effect on things if you go running your mouth off about it... but maybe this isn't one of those things. I'm not sure.

Are deities usually/always really cool about you talking about them or telling others about them, telling people who your patrons are, etc.? I don't know how they take that sort of thing.

My thinking on the gender specific thing was in the way that....some people think that males learn better with other males and females learn better with other females. I believe Druids have this practice (or atleast used to in ancient times). It's something about the energy flowing more easily between people of the same gender than when there is a mix of genders in the room.

I didn't really do a ritual per se. I lit a candle (for the female aspect) one day (+ a small offering) and asked loads of questions because I was confused. The male aspect came a day or two later and spoke with me. I wasn't really asking her for anything specific really,....it's just that....well, have you ever heard people talk about how some deity or another was trying to say, "Hey, I'm your patron!" somehow or another? I think that was happening with me and this deity, but I was starting to warm up to that it was probably true, so I figured I should initiate contact. That was mainly it, I think,...initiating contact.

[Azkhet]

Thanks, all those who responded!

I'm going to try to answer a bunch of stuff in this post, so bare with.



No, I haven't asked the female aspect what the deal is, but that does sound like a good idea.

I'm not sure I should say which deity/deities are in question here. Maybe it's not a big deal. It just seems like so much in the occult/spirituality/magick is just...really personal and it has a negative effect on things if you go running your mouth off about it... but maybe this isn't one of those things. I'm not sure.

Are deities usually/always really cool about you talking about them or telling others about them, telling people who your patrons are, etc.? I don't know how they take that sort of thing.

My thinking on the gender specific thing was in the way that....some people think that males learn better with other males and females learn better with other females. I believe Druids have this practice (or atleast used to in ancient times). It's something about the energy flowing more easily between people of the same gender than when there is a mix of genders in the room.

I didn't really do a ritual per se. I lit a candle (for the female aspect) one day (+ a small offering) and asked loads of questions because I was confused. The male aspect came a day or two later and spoke with me. I wasn't really asking her for anything specific really,....it's just that....well, have you ever heard people talk about how some deity or another was trying to say, "Hey, I'm your patron!" somehow or another? I think that was happening with me and this deity, but I was starting to warm up to that it was probably true, so I figured I should initiate contact. That was mainly it, I think,...initiating contact.

Deities generally don't mind you speaking about them. If there is a point that is some kind of hidden mystery, it's usually pretty clear. Remember, you're not practicing religion. You're practicing magic. There is a huge, huge, huge difference, the primary being that you are in control, not some god. The only thing you're the property of is yourself. If your deity exhibits controlling behavior, you don't have a god, you have an incorporeal asshole boyfriend whom you need to ditch. Many spirits (gods certainly fall into this category) gain power through repetition of their seal or name. This is why as payment in thanks for what a spirit has done, you may make a nicer version of its seal, or take an ad out in the paper thanking them publicly - Catholics love thanking St. Jude in the classifieds. If a spirit were to show up and say, "Hey, I'm a god, I have chosen you, I am your patron deity, but you must worship and tell no other" I'd take one look at it and say, "Yeah, you keep thinking that, jackass," and banish it into next week.

To play Devil's Advocate, you lit a candle for the female spirit, the male showed up a few day's later and said something about how you're supposed to follow the female, you're chosen, etc. Well, you called on the female -- what business does the male have showing up at all? That doesn't really make any sense, if you think about it. If you're so chosen, and the chosen called, why didn't she show up? Having that detail, it sounds like you called the attention of some astral trash.

Bruce explains it in Astral Dynamics better than I do, but the idea goes a little like this. Humans exist at a certain vibrational energy state. As you increase in vibrational frequency, you go up higher through levels of consciousness and the spirit world. Really nifty spirits like embodied concepts of love and art exist at an extremely high level, and thus have a correspondingly high vibrational frequency. Crappy spirits have lower frequencies and exist at lower vibrational energies. Humans have the curious ability to change their vibrational frequency and thus visit different levels of the astral where the different spirits hang out. At a vibrational state near humans exist a sort of astral cockroach that feeds off of potential human psychic energy. They're not really intelligent but they are evocative - if they evoke fear, elation, misery or whatever else, then they eat. Sometimes you hear about people who talk about an ambiguous dark shape in a corner that scares the dog but doesn't do anything. "Oh, it's been there for years," they say. Yes, it has been - growing fat and stupid like a slug on your residual psychic energy sludge. People who are learning astral projection rapidly encounter this psychic trash when they are trying to go through to higher and more interesting places in the astral, and if they're not prepared for it, their first impression of the astral is a dark, scary hungry place. Some of the roaches get smarter and decide to toy with you, not really so much out of actual malicious intent, but they've learned that if they mimic what you want and string you along, you'll feed them lots. I suppose the take-home point here is don't believe a damned thing a spirit says, especially if its arrival is suspicious.

The personal bit about magic has to do with in order for magic to work the magician has to change. It's easy to get hubris involved, and rapidly one can alternate between humility and megalomania - plus, you never know how someone's gonna react when you tell them you practice magic, much less if you practice a non-mainstream version of magic.

Regarding druids, no one has the foggiest idea what the druids did since they didn't leave a written record (Murray lied, among others.) Gender-divided studies are usually designed to cultivate traits associated with each. That which springs up around (men's mysteries, women's mysteries) evolves out of this. That energy flows differently between genders is nothing new. Men doing man-things like farting, calling each other rude names and punching each other (while farting) suddenly ceases when a female enters the room. My husband complains that all women seem to share an estrogen-fueled Borg collective because women understand a type of emotional logic that men just can't (he thinks I'm full of it, but everyone women I mention it to instantly understands.) Men and women are simply different. Of course their energies flow differently when they're together.

[Occultess]

Deities generally don't mind you speaking about them. If there is a point that is some kind of hidden mystery, it's usually pretty clear. Remember, you're not practicing religion. You're practicing magic. There is a huge, huge, huge difference, the primary being that you are in control, not some god. The only thing you're the property of is yourself. If your deity exhibits controlling behavior, you don't have a god, you have an incorporeal asshole boyfriend whom you need to ditch. Many spirits (gods certainly fall into this category) gain power through repetition of their seal or name. This is why as payment in thanks for what a spirit has done, you may make a nicer version of its seal, or take an ad out in the paper thanking them publicly - Catholics love thanking St. Jude in the classifieds. If a spirit were to show up and say, "Hey, I'm a god, I have chosen you, I am your patron deity, but you must worship and tell no other" I'd take one look at it and say, "Yeah, you keep thinking that, jackass," and banish it into next week.

Sometimes talking about things can kill the luster, the meaning something had, make it less special. Plus, (theoretically, atleast) a deity could perhaps view such a thing as disrespectful or like you are not taking the relationship/your spiritual journey seriously. And it seems like something that could quickly turn into bragging. None of them may actually view things like this....but this is the kind of thing I was worried about. Actually, while I was writing the previous message, I got the impression that she was sort of nudging me in a way and telling me it was ok.

To play Devil's Advocate, you lit a candle for the female spirit, the male showed up a few day's later and said something about how you're supposed to follow the female, you're chosen, etc. Well, you called on the female -- what business does the male have showing up at all? That doesn't really make any sense, if you think about it. If you're so chosen, and the chosen called, why didn't she show up? Having that detail, it sounds like you called the attention of some astral trash.

It's a bit more complicated than that. I think this deity may have first tried to contact me in a dream I had as a teenager or maybe I was in my twenties. But I didn't understand what was going on, so nothing came of it. This was the male European version. There was a night a couple or so years ago when I had a major experience during meditation with the male Egyptian version. Last year I kept seeing the male European version over and over again (on t-shirts, etc.). I even saw this candle with all of those religious grocery store candles of what looked like the male European version. That when I got the candle. It was really the female Mexican version, but from what I've read so far, the Europeans imbued her with stuff from their version. Finally, it was like...."well, maybe he's trying to get my attention."

I really only lit the candle for the female version, because that's what I had. I never even knew she existed until I looked up stuff on the internet after buying the candle. I feel close to the Egyptian version. And that is the one that showed up a day or 2 later, though she was around when I had the candle going and here and there since then. I can't remember what was going on when he showed up. If I was worried or wondering about all this...
All this patron deity stuff has been putting me under a lot of stress/anxiety. I remember about the first thing he did was put his finger under my chin and draw my face toward him. He probably just came to give me some guidance or reassurance. And he put some earrings on me, too, that look a lot like hers.

I suppose the take-home point here is don't believe a damned thing a spirit says, especially if its arrival is suspicious.

I don't. I'm wary. I'm just not good at telling.

[Jack-o-diamonds]

i totally understand what you mean when you say sometimes they don't want you to talk about it. and that's normal, from what i understand. it saves a person from just looking for a pat on the back because they have so-n-so for a god and keeps them focused on the real reason they are there.

Azkhet has some points worth considering (like the astrals, but that's merely Bruce's opinion), but the male and female energies thing i think is purely created by our idea of physical likeness. MAYBE some chick deities prefer chick followers, really it depends on the goddess. MAYBE some dude deities prefer dude followers, but also depends on the god. the majority of Dionysus' followers were women (and that IS backed by historical recordings). the majority of people Apollo endowed the gift of prophesy to (pretty much saying 'hey ur my fav') were women. i personally am a woman who just never connected to the "female lunar energy bs" that people say inhabits all women. the only goddess i ever 'connected' to was Vanth, and that's because she's a sweet chthonic demon, not some night-dwelling moon-bathing water-loving virgin mother-goddess.

so i would be wary of limiting ourselves to only female deities solely because we are female.

and also on the point of this being magic(k) not religion... from the sounds of it (going off of the title containing the words 'patron deity'), this has to do with someone's faith and following of a deity, not how to make spells.

[Azkhet]

i totally understand what you mean when you say sometimes they don't want you to talk about it. and that's normal, from what i understand. it saves a person from just looking for a pat on the back because they have so-n-so for a god and keeps them focused on the real reason they are there.

Azkhet has some points worth considering (like the astrals, but that's merely Bruce's opinion), but the male and female energies thing i think is purely created by our idea of physical likeness. MAYBE some chick deities prefer chick followers, really it depends on the goddess. MAYBE some dude deities prefer dude followers, but also depends on the god. the majority of Dionysus' followers were women (and that IS backed by historical recordings). the majority of people Apollo endowed the gift of prophesy to (pretty much saying 'hey ur my fav') were women. i personally am a woman who just never connected to the "female lunar energy bs" that people say inhabits all women. the only goddess i ever 'connected' to was Vanth, and that's because she's a sweet chthonic demon, not some night-dwelling moon-bathing water-loving virgin mother-goddess.

so i would be wary of limiting ourselves to only female deities solely because we are female.

and also on the point of this being magic(k) not religion... from the sounds of it (going off of the title containing the words 'patron deity'), this has to do with someone's faith and following of a deity, not how to make spells.

If you're going to divide categories into generally male and female attributes, those are good generalizations to make since you will find those themes echoed frequently across many systems. Since she still won't tell us what deity she's using, and I haven't the foggiest what system/background she's working with, I think it was a damned good example. I am aware that there are female deities with stereotypically male attributes (men are usually seen as aggressive, yet we have Durga, goddess of war.) So, grats on connecting with Vanth, I guess. It's just as irrelevant as my connection with Qayin.

I disagree that an issue of a patron deity has anything to do with faith. You can follow a deity, receive guidance, ask for help, even chum around with the damned thing, but that's not faith. That's belief. Faith and magick have little to do with each other, magick and belief, everything. But, if she wants to have some religion, have at it, I guess. I don't think it helps.

[Azkhet]

I even saw this candle with all of those religious grocery store candles of what looked like the male European version. That when I got the candle. It was really the female Mexican version, but from what I've read so far, the Europeans imbued her with stuff from their version. Finally, it was like...."well, maybe he's trying to get my attention."

So, Santisima Muerte?

[Occultess]

I even saw this candle with all of those religious grocery store candles of what looked like the male European version. That when I got the candle. It was really the female Mexican version, but from what I've read so far, the Europeans imbued her with stuff from their version. Finally, it was like...."well, maybe he's trying to get my attention."

So, Santisima Muerte?

...yep. So, Jack wasn't too far off with his, Thoth, guess.

Eh....I'm still feeling "out there" saying this. But she said it was ok, so...



Umm....for what it's worth, it's not a faith/religion thing. I'm not in to that. I'm more of a "have relationships with, but not worship" type.

[Elmer Romero]

This all sounds a bit sketchy to me. I shouldn't offer opinions about practices beyond my own experience, but seeing how uneasy you already are about the irregularities of being passed from one entity to another, I'd have to say I think your suspicions are justified.

Santa Muerte may not be who you think she is; at the very least, by approaching her, you're tapping into the belief-energy of a large group of people who are often not very nice. I flirted with Jesus Malverde for a short time several months ago, but I decided I didn't like the ways he seemed to be influencing me, and I withdrew my attention.

You might want to look at similar figures from the original Aztec pantheon before Christianity was superimposed on that belief system -- Coatlicue or Mictlantecuhtli / Mictecacihuatl (Lord and Lady of the afterlife) are the more primal, pre-westernized Mexican dieties who occupy that niche.

Be careful, eh?

[Azkhet]

You might want to look at similar figures from the original Aztec pantheon before Christianity was superimposed on that belief system -- Coatlicue or Mictlantecuhtli / Mictecacihuatl (Lord and Lady of the afterlife) are the more primal, pre-westernized Mexican dieties who occupy that niche.

Be careful, eh?

Mictecacihuatl is Santa Muerte.