Wicca: Is it a Worthwhile Paradigm?

[RoseRed]

Yes, I really do. At least, not until you find one that you can honestly worship and treat as a deity.

It's so common today to say 'I'm going to pick insert god/dess of choice because they're known for this or that'. Then people call on them and expect the gods to act like trained poodles jumping through hoops. As a Priestess, I find that behavior a little revolting - but for the sake of honesty - there was a time when I did the same thing. I've changed my position on that throughout the years. No one needs to agree with me.

Long ago, when the world was smaller, most of the pagan god/desses were local gods. Think of the different cultures separated not only by miles, but by centuries and landscape. The Greeks didn't worship Odin. The Romans didn't worship Kali. The gods were understood from the position of the current culture of the people at that time. Then the Romans came through the continents like a battering ram and shook everything up. It was either worship the way we tell you to or we'll throw you in the arena and kill you for fun. Kinda like going to a baseball or football game today.

Read whatever you like but try to separate the practical skills from the religious aspects.

[DarkSchneider]

Yes, I really do. At least, not until you find one that you can honestly worship and treat as a deity.

I'm not against worship and proper treatment of the deities, but I do suppose I should get more experienced and familiar with the deities before dedicating myself to them. I don't have proper space for an altar even, I've been using a small wooden chair and following what that book and others have been telling me.

Would you say a more relevant deity to my heritage would be more reasonable? I'm Greek/Italian, and french canadian.

[RoseRed]

I think 'reasonable' would be to stop playing with the gods.

Dude, you have no idea what you're getting yourself into or how fucked up it can turn out.

Unless you have a real and true connection to whatever god you have a makeshift alter for - I would ritually unmake that alter. You're following the directions in a book regarding gods you do not know anything about. That's dangerous.

I think you should study and research. Starting with your heritage is a wonderful place to begin. Please don't jump into doing something like this because some stupid book said you should.

[DarkSchneider]

I think 'reasonable' would be to stop playing with the gods.

Dude, you have no idea what you're getting yourself into or how fucked up it can turn out.

Unless you have a real and true connection to whatever god you have a makeshift alter for - I would ritually unmake that alter. You're following the directions in a book regarding gods you do not know anything about. That's dangerous.

I think you should study and research. Starting with your heritage is a wonderful place to begin. Please don't jump into doing something like this because some stupid book said you should.

I'm just curious, that's all. I don't have any peers who could really help me. So I'm trying to learn, and I don't know what steps to follow in order to get to that point.

I'll keep researching, do you have any recommendations as to what I can read or search for?

[RoseRed]

Start with the basics... psychic gifts and protection.

[Sypheara]

Try talking with the ones that call you, keep these as acts of devotion at first. If it works it will click, if not, no harm is done. As long as you dont try to snatch what isnt yours, they ll be no problem in my experience.

Firstly for me it was Lucifer... Then Hecate.. However this was a natural progression over quite a long time, and I did alot of small dedicatory rituals over time to both of them.

What is most important when working with the gods is a direct line of intuitive communication and also love.. Its not something where as rose rightly said you can pick and choose week to week..

For example im dedicated to hecate, Lucifer and their path.. There is no turning off that now ive been initiated and brought to it by them and accepted that invitation. I dont care because I love them, but that is difficult tomdescribe to someone who doesnt have a similar connection.

As rose red said it comes with significant cultural baggage. I doubt as a non european in a primarly christian country I could understand the shifting faces of Lucifer in his many aspects to the same degree as its been embedded in our culture for thousands of years. When people go about lifting Kali etc out to play about without the context stuff goes south quickly especially if they dont have a connection to her snd want to learn her path.

The best example would be someone we had recently at my martial arts calss. My teacher is a fifth Dan iaidoka in a line of traditional iai, and also is I believe and third or fourth Dan in jodo which is a form of stick fighting. We had a new guy come and learn and learn jo for a few weeks... Then leave because he thought he had learned enough to start his own martial art in his arrogance...

My teacher has been doing it for 20 years and wouldnt dream of doing that, as even 7th dans have done it for 40 + and still havnt reached ri or the stage they could even legitimately do such a thing... Of course this means he is now unwelcome to train anywhere with us as a lack of respect.. And has thus closed any hopes of real progress he could make whilst living in this region.hope that gives some sort of real world example thats kimda similar.

[DarkSchneider]

Very well, I both see your points. I will keep focused on the basics then, learn more about Wicca, stay clear of the deities, and practice the arts that you've mentioned.

I'm a very eager person. I guess that's why I dove into Chaos Magick without having much experience. I've really only worked with the Key of Solomon, the Simon Necronomicon, Oven Ready Chaos, etc, in the two years that I've actively practiced magick. The rest was studying and learning about Tarot. I want to be well equipped for this world. I feel like my time is running short and I may not have very many options left.

[Sypheara]

Very well, I both see your points. I will keep focused on the basics then, learn more about Wicca, stay clear of the deities, and practice the arts that you've mentioned.

I'm a very eager person. I guess that's why I dove into Chaos Magick without having much experience. I've really only worked with the Key of Solomon, the Simon Necronomicon, Oven Ready Chaos, etc, in the two years that I've actively practiced magick. The rest was studying and learning about Tarot. I want to be well equipped for this world. I feel like my time is running short and I may not have very many options left.

Why do you believe that time is running short? Sorry if thats a too personal question for the boards.

I honestly would say working with the Gods for myself has been excellent, if you want to do the same fine, but you really need to develop a connection first before you jump in using their magic. And with full awareness that once one has developed that connection, and self initiated, power than arises from that also means you will occasionally have to do things for them that you might not want to do, when you dont want to do it if its requested.

My friend for example was pretty much ordered by Hecate to live in the mountains to pursue the path on a 24/7 basis.. so it can occasionally be severe.

[DarkSchneider]

Well, I'll be happy to share:

I'm borderline poor, I've never finished High School, I'm living in a province where there is a language barrier, I have few friends, and I'm highly depressed. Not to mention I'm on the autistic spectrum and I have to learn/unlearn many qualities and skills most people already have or don't have.

I'm considering doing several courses for Trade schools, which I will have to go back to finish some courses in High School for or obtain my diploma. I wonder if I should also do a more expensive Jewelry course rather than the Trade School course(which is only in french) but the Jewelry course would be much shorter and I wouldn't receive a degree per say. It's causing me a lot of stress to think about and I'm really at a loss. Also, the French Trade school would be several years long. I don't want to live in Quebec anymore. I am unsure if I should even bother with any of it at all...

I understand much more clearly now, Sypheara. It's not just a give and take relationship. I have to be willing to offer something in return to the Deities. I have to be willing to serve and willing to act on their behalf. I should be careful with my approach then.

[Sypheara]

Well, I'll be happy to share:

I'm borderline poor, I've never finished High School, I'm living in a province where there is a language barrier, I have few friends, and I'm highly depressed. Not to mention I'm on the autistic spectrum and I have to learn/unlearn many qualities and skills most people already have or don't have.

I'm considering doing several courses for Trade schools, which I will have to go back to finish some courses in High School for or obtain my diploma. I wonder if I should also do a more expensive Jewelry course rather than the Trade School course(which is only in french) but the Jewelry course would be much shorter and I wouldn't receive a degree per say. It's causing me a lot of stress to think about and I'm really at a loss. Also, the French Trade school would be several years long. I don't want to live in Quebec anymore. I am unsure if I should even bother with any of it at all...

I understand much more clearly now, Sypheara. It's not just a give and take relationship. I have to be willing to offer something in return to the Deities. I have to be willing to serve and willing to act on their behalf. I should be careful with my approach then.

That situation does sound far from ideal ^^; but not insurmountable. I used to have depression, did for about 5 to 6 years so trust me when i say that I know what it can be like. However for me, Hecate and Lucifer really help pull me out of situation and show me the bigger picture, which made it difficult to remain in that depressed state. Once they showed me how truly vast things are, outside of my own personal self, I could no longer be depressed as all states are transient.. if you persist, things will change. They have no option but to, as nothing remains constant. It gave me the perspective to realise that I should make the best of my current incarnation, regardless of my circumstances. Thats not something i can really describe, but only hope that you may understand in an emotional level.

I think you have already answered your own question. If you have no intention of living in Quebec anymore, then the jewelry course sounds like the better option: As long as its giving you a skill you can actually make money from. I became a programmer because it was one of my interests which i knew at the end of the day could land me gainful employment. Unfortunately, without money you are kind of stuck, so id pursue getting your education up to scratch as soon as you can along with any other skills you could use to generate a higher income.

I know how hard it can be, even with my university degree and past experience in the field it took me over a year to find a decent job due to how fucked the world economy is and UKs in general. What you can do however in the meantime is brush up on your skills, both practical and occult, and enjoy learning and applying those skills. If you don't have a full time job, you will have more time to acquire skills and do things you enjoy.

From your posts you sound like a more than intelligent enough to carve your own path, you just need patience and willpower to get there, and you have demonstrated that you are driven. If you give up, you wont fulfill your own creative potential.

To go back to the Gods discussion, as long as your approach is careful and measured, you should be fine. Hopefully that has helped somewhat. [happyface]

[manonthepath]

You know Schneider, you have a long way ahead of you. As you develop and grow things will reveal themselves to you. This forum is an excellent resource for answers to questions and especially to help you find resources. Your future is in YOUR hands, whatever that future is is up to you.

[manofsands]

Also, eagerness is a great asset to have right now, but you have to harness it and not let it harness you.

You've probably heard the saying that what is important is "the path, not the destination". It is true here as well. Its doubtful you'll finish reading a certain book or post and all of a sudden AH HAH you understand it and start bending reality to your will. This kind of thinking is a lifestyle. You need to relax, soak things up slowly and deeply. Be OK with where you are right now, and know (with your harnessed enthusiasm) that things will only be getting better and better for you.

Try to rid yourself of the need to race to the finish line. There isn't one.... Ever.

[RoseRed]

Actually, Death is the finish line for Life.

Still in a hurry?

[manofsands]

Actually, Death is the finish line for Life.

Still in a hurry?

Ya, depending on ones belief system, that's not even a finish line.

[RoseRed]

I certainly hope it's not a reset point. LOL

[DarkSchneider]

Thank you everyone I am appreciative of your insights and suggestions.

I am glad that there are people active on this forum. I don't have many peers I can work with. SIN was a terrible website too, so I'm glad to have found a better one.

[Sypheara]

Thank you everyone I am appreciative of your insights and suggestions.

I am glad that there are people active on this forum. I don't have many peers I can work with. SIN was a terrible website too, so I'm glad to have found a better one.

Glad to be of some use. Yeah it is quite active! Surprised at that still myself, im really enjoying posting here etc.

Also it's amazing what a community can be like when they are not full of arseholes and actually want to help!

Just remember on bad days you have plenty of peers here. Whilst not a substitute for 'real world' interaction, we are definitely 'in it together' so to speak as fellow occultists and spirit workers.

[Nahemah]

Folk here will always answer you honestly and there is a helpful vibe here. [grin]

We're quite proud of that and it's the members who make this place what it is. [thumbup]

We go up and down in posting frequency and always have done, so sometimes it's quiet,but that's fine for us,as we're not trying to be the biggest or noisiest site around anyway and we prefer quality over quantity any day of the week.We also like having fresh blood,so new folk without any or much experience are as welcome as the seasoned practioners.
No questions being asked or information being sought would make for a very dull forum indeed,lol.

We also harbour luckers quite happily as there are a fair few members who rarely post if at all and that's fine to as we are a reading resource as well as a discussion site.[cool]

It's all good.

[DarkSchneider]

So I'd thought I'd bring everyone up to speed about this subject:

I've stopped praying to the so-called "god and goddess" every morning and night. I was reading a book called the "Modern Witch's Guide To Magic and Spells" by Sarah Lyddon Morrison, and well, she has a very strange viewpoint. It's a book on Hawaiian and Obeah magic, but she seems to reference Christianity and Jesus as the final authority on things, while condemning Wicca as a devil's religion. She also claims that Wiccan's are the most self righteous and rudest people she's dealt with. I don't know if I agree with her but I had an urge to purchase this book when I was skimming through the bookstore I'm now working at. (BTW, everyone, I'm working as a volunteer now)

The author claims that there's a time and place for "dark" magic, and that it should be used responsibility which I agree with, but the Wiccan attitude seems to be, at least to me, that there is no room for it. I'd be partial to having as few restrictions as possible with magic. That's not to say I completely disagree with Wicca or agree with this author, but I'm wondering, where I should stand with any of this. I guess I still have much searching to do.

What are your impressions of the 3 Fold Law/Law of Return? Does it even exist or is it a tactic for Wiccans to influence and narrow one's perception on the ethics of magic?

[Procel]

What are your impressions of the 3 Fold Law/Law of Return? Does it even exist or is it a tactic for Wiccans to influence and narrow one's perception on the ethics of magic?

I should probably wait for those more qualified than myself to respond, but I'm online now. I think it's a crock of feel-good nonsense. In part, it comes from a reasonable desire to try to keep nasty, sadistic nut cases from wanting into the club. That's understandable. No one wants violent psychotics hanging around. How to keep them from wanting to join? Tell them that magic can't be used for mean nasty stuff. Say it enough, it becomes dogma and they believe it deeply. It's also meant to be an incentive to do good. Admirable and generally a solid place to start, but not an immutable law of the Cosmos.

It is another way of telling people to watch their Karma. Karma is real, but not as direct and even handed as some people make it out to be. Bad things happen to good people and people live long and well after doing some deeply cruel and even evil things. Just look at the ratio of crimes reported to crimes solved or at the Nazi war criminals who died peacefully of old age and it's hard to say "what goes around comes around." It's just not that simple. I don't think there is a score card running a tab in your "permanent record." If your a scumbag who does a lot of bad things, that is what your life will be full of. Good people have a good chance of being surrounded by other good people. I know I feel good when I know I'm doing right by the world or even when I help someone I don't have to help. Does that mean that what I'm doing is going to come back three fold? Does it mean that if I only put out positive thoughts and actions that thieves, rapists, killers and evil in general will pass me by because I'm so darned awesome? That I don't see.

There is a time and a place to use the dark side, and a time to embody al that is good and light. That applies to life both magical and mundane. If you don't have any edge at all, you are dull. If you lack tenderness, you are incomplete.

[DarkSchneider]

There is a time and a place to use the dark side, and a time to embody al that is good and light. That applies to life both magical and mundane. If you don't have any edge at all, you are dull. If you lack tenderness, you are incomplete.

Your post really clears it up for me, and I feel much less hung up about the idea. I agree that it seems like feel-good nonsense. Thank you for your reply

[Eremita]

What are your impressions of the 3 Fold Law/Law of Return? Does it even exist or is it a tactic for Wiccans to influence and narrow one's perception on the ethics of magic?

I think that taken at face value the Three Fold Law is fairly obviously BS. If you do bad, you'll have the same happen to you, only three times worse!!! [oh] Yeah, nah.

I did hear a good interpretation from a Wiccan a while ago, though - she explained it in the following way:

Everything you do has immediate and ongoing reverberations on yourself. Your actions will affect you on three levels - physically, mentally and spiritually. If you act like a jerk; if you act out of hatred or fear, rather than love, this is inevitably going to have an untoward effect on your physical and spiritual self. Tension, stress, grudges, guilt, regret, misery - these are what the seasoned "evil-doer" will usually be dealing with.

Conversely, if you strive to think and act positively, that is going to have the same three-fold effect on yourself, but in the reverse. Positive actions and attitudes - meditation, appreciation, well wishes, love, sympathy, compassion, acting on behalf of the welfare of others - yields a residual effect of greater physical, mental and spiritual well being.

I think if interpreted in this way, the Threefold Law makes a good deal of sense, and is frankly very good advice for anyone, especially people who are interested in magical practice.

What you send out, you get back times three.

[HorridBruce]

I'm new here as well (I have been reading the site for several months off and on but decided to finally make an account), and I found this thread today while browsing the site and I have to say this is a very good discussion.

Eremita, that was the most interesting interpretation I have ever heard of the 3-fold law. Thank you for sharing that. I always thought the 3-fold law was basically just a fear tactic like Hell in the christian world. But the way you explained how what we send out effects us on 3 levels, makes total sense.

In general, I would have to say that I believe that it is possible to build up karmic energy for whatever is after this life. Someone said that "death is not the finish line" and then someone else said "they hope it isn't a reset button". The way I understand it, is it is not the finish line or a reset button. The life of our spiritual self is eternal and this physical life is merely a chapter. Does that mean I think we keep coming back here in the form of a baby human only to go through a whole new life over and over again? Not necessarily. Do we come back as animals? No clue. Do we even come back here at all? Or do we go somewhere/when/what else? We have to wait for death to find out the answers to that. I'm in no hurry though, because I enjoy this life in the here and now.

Back to the topic. I have been studying the occult heavily for a little over a year now. I dabbled in it years ago, but then took a long 10 year trip down the christianity rabbit hole. I came to my senses after actually studying the bible and lots of other books on my own with an open mind. So I have abandoned that dogma and am now trying to figure out the truth, theologically, philosophically, spiritually, etc. I have been reading books on witchcraft lately (mostly Ann Moura's Green Witchcraft series, I really like her approach to the natural side and balance of the feminine and masculine aspects of the Divine.) Her books do contain a lot of Wiccan practices as well, as she fully admits. So naturally I have been wondering about Wicca in general. This thread has been very helpful and I hope the discussion continues.

My question is this, several of you have suggested that the "gods" of the old pantheons are indeed real entities and I was wondering if you could comment on that a bit? I am under the understanding that the "gods" are representations of a certain people of different aspects of the Divine force in the universe. That is why we find parallel deities throughout all the pantheons. And therefore the names don't really matter other than to assist the mind in understanding the different characteristics of the Divine.

Please share any thoughts on this.

[manonthepath]

Yes, I really do. At least, not until you find one that you can honestly worship and treat as a deity.

It's so common today to say 'I'm going to pick insert god/dess of choice because they're known for this or that'. Then people call on them and expect the gods to act like trained poodles jumping through hoops. As a Priestess, I find that behavior a little revolting - but for the sake of honesty - there was a time when I did the same thing. I've changed my position on that throughout the years. No one needs to agree with me.

Long ago, when the world was smaller, most of the pagan god/desses were local gods. Think of the different cultures separated not only by miles, but by centuries and landscape. The Greeks didn't worship Odin. The Romans didn't worship Kali. The gods were understood from the position of the current culture of the people at that time. Then the Romans came through the continents like a battering ram and shook everything up. It was either worship the way we tell you to or we'll throw you in the arena and kill you for fun. Kinda like going to a baseball or football game today.

Read whatever you like but try to separate the practical skills from the religious aspects.

With respect, the Romans actually were never like that in any of my research with respect to the specific topic of religious tolerance. In fact many Egyptian and other foreign gods were not only tolerated in Rome, but were both incorporated into the roman pantheon as they were seen by the people's that found them, or as blended constructs. To illustrate my point I would provide the Roman cult of ISIS, which thrived from the time of the Julian conquests right up till the christians burned the last of them. Another excellent example is that of "Hermanubis" an amalgamation of Anubis and Hermes. Both of these examples are typical and not exceptions. The Romans were less tolerant of the Germanic gods, but never tried to destroy the movements (with the exception of sacking a few temples here and there). Any suppression of Germanic religion likely came as results of German princes becoming Romanized and seeking to promote roman gods out of genuine respect or political ambition and also because these German princes sought to make profound changes in Germanic society to turn them from warlike tribal barbarians into capitalists. Wise Emperors like Marcus Aurelius did desperately try to wipe out the christian infection before it could destroy Rome, but the disease was to insidious and they too civilized. I have found no existing evidence of the Romans mounting a deliberate attempt to suppress any pagan religion within the domains of either the Republic or Empire until the christians were allowed to take over. When this happened ALL religions, including those of Rome, fell under heavy assault. It needs to be noted that christian Rome was no longer really Rome, but a christian satrap run by papal goons. If the Romans had been less tolerant of other religions, we might have been spared all the suffering wrought by the judeo offshoots throughout history and that last up to the present moment. I invite all to research this in more detail. The topic is truly fascinating.

It is true that Rome was cruel and intolreant on many levels, but religion was not one of them.