What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

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Desecrated
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What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

Post by Desecrated »

So I finally got the IIH and started reading it but it didn't take long before I stumbled.

Page 26
"Sword symbolizes the element of fire, the wand the element of air, the cup the element of water and the coins the element of earth"

That doesn't seem to match with the golden dawn and other popular hermetic writers.

And then follows an entire section of the akasha principle.
Theosophy?

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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

Post by Shinichi »

Franz Bardon's work is his own.

Even if you don't believe that he really was an Avesh, there's no doubt that he relied on little more than his own experience and genius to formulate his books, simply because they are so unique in comparison to everyone else's work of the day. As for what he studied, well - in true, classic magician form, he studied everything he could get his hands on. His home was filled with all of the relevant books of his day, as well as ancient manuscripts the likes of which we will probably never see publicly. Everything was confiscated after he was arrested.

He simply took what he knew and wrote it down in his own words, and simply used "modern" words (like Akasha, instead of Aether) that everyone would be familiar with to describe things that are a much older segment of Hermeticism.



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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

Post by Haelos »

His description of the elements that you commented on follows almost every other tradition I've come across when they speak about altar tools.
Have you not even looked at a tarot deck? Coins/shileds, swords, wands, and cups. Earth, Fire, Air, Water.
It has always been that way.
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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

Post by Rin »

Bardon isn't the only source which attributes the dagger/sword to fire and the wand/staff to air, in fact I always thought these correspondences made far more sense than the GD ones even before I read Bardon's work.

As for his education, it really depends on how much you're willing to accept. Probably nobody could answer the question but Bardon himself, since even if you accept the premise that he was an Avesh, nobody (that I know of) knows exactly how much knowledge an Avesh retains of their former lives and their time in-between lives.

What I am pretty comfortable accepting is that Bardon stated that his previous incarnation had been in Tibet, and indeed much of the training in IIH aligns with what I know of Tibetan Tantric practices and worldview, with the language mostly converted over to terminology more accessable to a Western audience (Vital Force instead of R'Lung/ etc). He references Tibetan techniques and practices repeatedly within the book as well.

The part where it becomes a bit trickier is his second and third books, which are much more Western. As has been said, it's known that he had a vast library of magical texts, and so it's possible that this is where he sourced these practices. He was also said to regular evoke various spirits and converse with them (and he offers this as a technique for attaining spiritual knowledge in his books), and also to be in contact with various discarnate masters. Or it's possible that his memories stretched back further than his most immediate previous incarnation, and that he retains knowledge of these techniques from those lives.

All in all, it's difficult to say. But yes, a lot of what Bardon teaches in his books is different to the "traditional" modern hermetic current (Rosicrucians > GD > Thelema and their various offshoots) - but that was the entire purpose. He wrote the book (albeit allegedly after much convincing by his superiors) because these (again, alleged, there's a lot of misinformation which has been spread about Bardon) superiors felt that there was a large gap in Western magical teachings which needed to be closed, and that a resource needed to be made available to fill that gap and to allow individuals who lacked the contacts or finances to join a lodge, or travel East and study there, to train themselves.

If you haven't already, I would recommend reading this article, as it might help provide some more perspective: http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,15084.0.html
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

- DDJ, Verse 27

"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett

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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

Post by Desecrated »

Haelos wrote:His description of the elements that you commented on follows almost every other tradition I've come across when they speak about altar tools.
Have you not even looked at a tarot deck? Coins/shileds, swords, wands, and cups. Earth, Fire, Air, Water.
It has always been that way.
That is NOT how it is in the book of T, nor in the rider waite deck, nor crowley, nor Levi.

Papus had a completely different system,
wand - fire, cup- water, sword - earth, pentacle, air.

It seems that Gardner had the same setup as Bardon.

In Scandinavian witchcraft the tools element usually are: Cauldron/cup = earth, Knife/sword = heaven/wind, Wand = air and Candle = Fire.

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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

Post by Rin »

The way I see it is this - a sword is first and foremost a weapon, fire is the most martial and active of the elements. A sword is literally forged through heat and flame. Fire represents the active will - and there is no tool more representative of the will of an individual than a sword/dagger being wielded, imo. It's literally the power of life and death, creation and destruction, and most of all, of change, in the hands of the wielder - a blade can be used to kill, to defend, to carve, to cook, to cut, to shave. On a purely material level, the holding of a blade allows the individual to reach out and to change the world around him more than any other basic tool. If that isn't an expression of active will, what is?

Likewise a staff or wand - to me personally, symbolizes wisdom and intellect. The magician with his staff/wand is an image intensely and deeply ingrained in Western culture. "Symbolizes" being the key word - using Moses as a Biblical example, he didn't use his staff to whack people over the head, he used it as a symbol of his connection to God and to express God's power through himself. The staff/wand isn't a tool in a mundane sense, the way the blade is, it doesn't express the magicians will in any physical way. What it does do is represent his intellect, his wisdom, his authority.

Then you go to the material side of it - what is a staff made of? Wood. Now air is by it's nature insubstantial, but a tree is probably the closest material object related to the air - trees reach up into the sky, tree's are what maintain our atmosphere by taking in carbon dioxide and putting oxygen back out. Their branches bend and sway in the wind, the breeze whispers through their leaves. The tree it also the bridge between the electric energy of the Sun and the magnetic energy of the Earth, sustaining itself from both, just as it is air which serves as the metaphysical bridge (while also being the product of and sustained by) between the primordial electric/yang Fire and magnetic/yin Water which gave birth to creation.

Finally (and this could be a bit of a stretch), the internl system of vital energies (which are primarily taken in and manipulated through the breathing of air - the same air which is sustained by the trees) is often represented by a staff, stick, or wand, symbolized most fully in the Caduceus of Hermes (himself a god of intellect, wit, speed and wisdom).

Anyway, that's just my interpretation.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

- DDJ, Verse 27

"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett

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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

Post by Desecrated »

Wood burns better then metal.

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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

Post by Eremita »

Haha, short response Desecrated, but justified - wood was humanity's gateway to the realms of fire, and remained so for many centuries until we learned to create fire from other things only quite recently. In spiritual terms when thinking of wands/trees in connection with fire the first image that springs to mind is the Burning Bush, a link between Moses and I AM. As a phallic symbol, the wand or staff (particularly with a knob on the end!) represents the archetype of fire and the generative Yang energy pretty well.

The knife or sword attributed to the element of air makes sense also, because the mental faculty is used in discrimination and judgement - reason cuts through confusion and creates divisions. Ever heard a particularly smart person referred to as "sharp as a tack", or a particularly slow person referred to as "not the sharpest knife in the drawer"? :D A sword is also held by Justice, a common symbol of the judicial system and law (a world of pure intellect). Swords enforce the judgements of humans, and are used as a weapon of murder on the basis of reason but also blind ideology (both the realm of the Ruach rather than the Chiah).

And having said all that, I think Rin's rationale for the reverse is brilliant, and just goes to show that there are different ways of interpreting all this stuff, because we're dealing with symbolism which isn't concrete. I see it both ways; whatever floats your boat.

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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

Post by Rin »

Desecrated wrote:Wood burns better then metal.
I would consider that an argument "for" sword-fire/wand-air, not against it, but I guess it's just a question of point of view.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

- DDJ, Verse 27

"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett

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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

Post by Haqim »

A bit off-topic, but I suggest to check the five elements of Taoism.

Many Western traditions work with the Greek version of the four elements, then they put there a fifth one, probably from some Eastern source (I'd say Hinduism).

Now Greeks also had a fifth element, of course, but that was added in later, probably by Aristotle.

I suggested Taoism because their five elements has a more logical (or simply clearer) dynamics than many of its Western counterparts.

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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

Post by Shinichi »

Haqim wrote:Many Western traditions work with the Greek version of the four elements, then they put there a fifth one, probably from some Eastern source (I'd say Hinduism).

Now Greeks also had a fifth element, of course, but that was added in later, probably by Aristotle.
Plato was the first major proponent of Aether, though he and Aristotle had disagreements about its place in their cosmologies. Plato was also the first to call these things "elements" at all, and he and other Platonists and Neoplatonists did a whole bunch of other things that built upon their predecessors and laid the foundations for later Hermetic developments.

And, I can say from experience that Aether and Akasha are the exact same natural force.



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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

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Sword as Air or Fire?
From what I understand, Hermetics doesn't actually separate the elements. Air and Fire are connected in their qualities. Air is a moist heat, and fire is a dry heat; as opposed to the dry cold and the wet cold of Earth and Water.
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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

Post by Shinichi »

corvidus wrote:Sword as Air or Fire?
From what I understand, Hermetics doesn't actually separate the elements. Air and Fire are connected in their qualities. Air is a moist heat, and fire is a dry heat; as opposed to the dry cold and the wet cold of Earth and Water.
Aye, it's very important to remember the cosmology of the elements.

First is Aether, which divides into the Electric and Magnetic Fluids, which become Fire and Water, respectively. Fire and Water mix, giving birth to Air. And when all three elements mix, and condense, Earth is formed in order to hold it all together.

So there is a separation, but it's not quite as distinct as those unfamiliar with the Elemental Mysteries would think. In fact, some (ie, Prophecy's writings on Elemental Magic) have exercises specifically for transmuting one element into another, as well as mixing them together in other ways (Fire of Water, etc) for more Elemental Forces beyond the main four.



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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

Post by Rin »

^ Yep. And then there's the entire spectrum of astrological and planetary energies, which are more or less the elemental energies broken down further and then recombined into different formulations (to put it very roughly).
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

- DDJ, Verse 27

"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett

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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

Post by Shinichi »

Rin wrote:^ Yep. And then there's the entire spectrum of astrological and planetary energies, which are more or less the elemental energies broken down further and then recombined into different formulations (to put it very roughly).
The Celestial Rays are actually a bit different than that. The Four Elements are the simplest not just because they are cosmically the most basic, but also because they are most native to the planet Earth, the things "closest" to us in a literal sense. In order for the Planetary Rays (the energy of each planet) to be worked with here, they must sink into Earth's atmosphere, and thus each Planetary Ray passes through the Elements and is reflected through one most strongly, depending on the nature of that Ray (given Mars' nature, that energy gets along best with Fire, and so on). Likewise, the Zodiac is further away and outside of our solar system, and those Rays must pass through both the Planetary Rays and the Elements in order to be experienced here on Earth - thus, each Zodiac energy has both a Planet and an Element associated with it.

Tis all very simple.



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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

Post by magari »

Goes to show you

It's all subjective

You get to choose

Once you know what you're doing

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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

Post by Rin »

Shinichi wrote:
Rin wrote:^ Yep. And then there's the entire spectrum of astrological and planetary energies, which are more or less the elemental energies broken down further and then recombined into different formulations (to put it very roughly).
The Celestial Rays are actually a bit different than that. The Four Elements are the simplest not just because they are cosmically the most basic, but also because they are most native to the planet Earth, the things "closest" to us in a literal sense. In order for the Planetary Rays (the energy of each planet) to be worked with here, they must sink into Earth's atmosphere, and thus each Planetary Ray passes through the Elements and is reflected through one most strongly, depending on the nature of that Ray (given Mars' nature, that energy gets along best with Fire, and so on). Likewise, the Zodiac is further away and outside of our solar system, and those Rays must pass through both the Planetary Rays and the Elements in order to be experienced here on Earth - thus, each Zodiac energy has both a Planet and an Element associated with it.

Tis all very simple.



~:Shin:~
Not quite how I see it, but I don't have the energy to get into a debate about the minutiae of astrology right now :p And honestly, it's not my strongest area of knowledge, so your perspective could well be equally valid.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

- DDJ, Verse 27

"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett

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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

Post by Shinichi »

You can believe what you like, but what I said summarizes how the Hermetic cosmology has been worked with for centuries, if not much longer. It is the Old Way. If not for your own practice, then at least in order to properly understand the context of many old texts and teachings, you need to understand that the ancient sages didn't even consider these modern topics of spectrums breaking down, or modern psychological things. The ancients were looking at and studying the natural world, and constructed their cosmology and practice according to what they saw.

What I said is supported by solid modern Physics (and thus Metaphysics), too. In order for the light reflected off the planets to reach us as individuals, that energy has to pass through Earth's Atmosphere, and consequently becomes charged and imprinted not just with it's own core metaphysical energy but also the energies here too. Whether that Light becomes charged with Elements or something else isn't as important here as the point that, upon entering the atmosphere, the celestial energy is influenced by native energy. And likewise, the light of the stars, being much further away, must pass through the entire solar system as well as Earth's atmosphere, all the while picking up stray energies that influence the core stuff before reaching us.

The ancients were not ignorant savages. They knew these things, knew that the stars were further away than the planets, knew how it influenced them metaphysically, and they constructed their cosmologies and their magick accordingly. To them, magick was the science of the natural world, and there was nothing ever subjective about it.



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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

Post by Rin »

I've a little perturbed that we've gone from very slightly varying hypotheses to the accusation that I view the ancient sages as "ignorant savages." What exactly have I said to give that impression? I just don't believe the difference in our perspectives on the subject is large enough to merit getting bogged down in a substantial debate.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

- DDJ, Verse 27

"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett

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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

Post by magari »

I don't think shin was saying that's your opinion.

Probably mine lol

My point is that the tools you choose to represent the elements are up to you, not set in stone.

I prefer a carbine over the sword, for example

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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

Post by Shinichi »

The savages comment wasn't directed at anyone at all. Rather, that's just the general conception of them in modern society, since that is the perspective that science has encouraged for the last couple hundred years. Wasn't anything personal at all. Just an open comment. [gz]



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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

Post by corvidus »

magari wrote: My point is that the tools you choose to represent the elements are up to you, not set in stone.

I prefer a carbine over the sword, for example
True. Also consider that a sword symbolizes more than Air or Fire. I would even say it's symbolism/correspondence to Victory and Conquering through Force of Will is more important than what element you attach to it.
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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

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Rin wrote:Bardon isn't the only source which attributes the dagger/sword to fire and the wand/staff to air, in fact I always thought these correspondences made far more sense than the GD ones even before I read Bardon's work.

As for his education, it really depends on how much you're willing to accept. Probably nobody could answer the question but Bardon himself, since even if you accept the premise that he was an Avesh, nobody (that I know of) knows exactly how much knowledge an Avesh retains of their former lives and their time in-between lives.

What I am pretty comfortable accepting is that Bardon stated that his previous incarnation had been in Tibet, and indeed much of the training in IIH aligns with what I know of Tibetan Tantric practices and worldview, with the language mostly converted over to terminology more accessable to a Western audience (Vital Force instead of R'Lung/ etc). He references Tibetan techniques and practices repeatedly within the book as well.

The part where it becomes a bit trickier is his second and third books, which are much more Western. As has been said, it's known that he had a vast library of magical texts, and so it's possible that this is where he sourced these practices. He was also said to regular evoke various spirits and converse with them (and he offers this as a technique for attaining spiritual knowledge in his books), and also to be in contact with various discarnate masters. Or it's possible that his memories stretched back further than his most immediate previous incarnation, and that he retains knowledge of these techniques from those lives.

All in all, it's difficult to say. But yes, a lot of what Bardon teaches in his books is different to the "traditional" modern hermetic current (Rosicrucians > GD > Thelema and their various offshoots) - but that was the entire purpose. He wrote the book (albeit allegedly after much convincing by his superiors) because these (again, alleged, there's a lot of misinformation which has been spread about Bardon) superiors felt that there was a large gap in Western magical teachings which needed to be closed, and that a resource needed to be made available to fill that gap and to allow individuals who lacked the contacts or finances to join a lodge, or travel East and study there, to train themselves.

If you haven't already, I would recommend reading this article, as it might help provide some more perspective: http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,15084.0.html
It's been a while since I read IIT, but what I remember isn't reminiscent of what little I know of the Tibetan Buddhist worldview. I do however remember reading a few things that conflict with it. I don't practice Tibetan magic, so I can't comment on that, but I remember Jason Miller, who is an experienced Vajrayana practitioner, mentioning that Bardon's Tibetan stuff was off point. Actually, the words he used were "absolute false crap."

http://strategicsorcery.blogspot.com/20 ... n.html?m=1

Franz Bardon's son said that his true name ended with "ananda," and that he wore a ring given to him by Mahadevi, so I always assumed that he had a Hindu connection. One example of conflict is that in the Bardon mythos there are accounts of people assuming the negative karma of others, which is impossible from a Buddhist perspective, but not a Hindu one.
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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

Post by Rin »

I'm having a difficult time imagining what it is in IIH that could be accused of being "absolute false crap" vis a vis Tibetan practices, since I don't remember there being anywhere in the book where Bardon provides a specific technique and says "this is how the Tibetans do it." He draws comparisons in terms of results (eg. drawing a comparison between the physical heating of the body caused by the accumulation of the Fire element and the similar effect achieved by Tummo), but in each case that I remember either specifically points out that the technique itself isn't the same or makes no comment on the issue of specific technique either way, simply comparing some aspect of the effect.

Perhaps I should have worded my explanation carefully, I didn't mean to imply that IIH is Tibetan Tantra transplanted wholesale into a European/Hermetic worldview. This is obviously not the case (again, compare the Fire Accumulation to the technique(s) used for Tummo, or the lack of several major aspects of Tibetan Tantra like deity worship, the focus on the guru, the use of extensive systems of internal energy centers, etc), just that many similarities can be drawn on a basic level - which is where my knowledge of Tibetan Tantra ends.

On the other hand, IIH quite obviously draws from Eastern sources, and given what has been stated by Bardon and his friends and family, it seems quite likely that there is a relatively large Tibetan influence. To what exact degree, it's impossible to say, because it comes back to the question of how much of IIH is from Bardon's most recent previous incarnation, how much is from prior incarnations, how much is from discarnate sources, how much is from his extensive library and correspondences in his Bardon incarnation, etc etc. On top of that, it's also obvious that much has been changed to create what Bardon felt would be the most appropriate system for the solo, European practitioner of the mid-20th century (the most obvious being the simplification of the internal alchemical aspect, which was presumably done to prevent overwhelming readers with a system of energy centers/pathways which they could then do themselves harm with if not properly utilized).

Finally, it's worth remembering that there's no one, single system of Tibetan Tantra, just as there's no one, single system of Hermetic Magic, or Hindu Yoga, or Daoist Neidan, and so on and so on. All of these are just broad terms for vast collections of lineages which are spread across a wide geographical and cultural expanse and which are constantly shifting, merging and diverging with the passage of time. Having been initiated to some degree into a system of Tibetan magic in the late 20th century doesn't make one an expert on Tibetan magic in all of the forms that it has manifested in across the globe and across the millennia of it's history.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

- DDJ, Verse 27

"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett

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Re: What tradition did Franz Bardon study?

Post by RockDemon »

Well if you take everything in the biography - Frabato The Magician as facts then this being as Franz Bardon didn't need to study any tradition and as you read the list of his past incarnations then you may notice he has been a part of most major traditions throughout the globe. But I am a begginer so my conclucsions can be all inaccurate.

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