Which order should I apply for?

Information and advice for those new to the Occult.

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Which order should I apply for?

Post by XxMxX »

Hi, I have been burying my head in research on Planetary Magick and the Qabalah for a while now, and have been performing numerous meditations rituals. I would like to start seeking the support and connections that an order of some kind might be able to offer. I have been looking into lists of the older orders but given that most of them are 'secret societies', none of their websites or documents reveal much about their traditions or methods of working. Would anyone have any experiences they could share to give me a better idea of who to consider?

I was considering possibly the Ordo Aurum Solis already but I was wondering if I could get some people's opinions on other orders.

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Re: Which order should I apply for?

Post by BrokenSeeker »

There has been a lot of this question going around lately and just about as many answers for it as there are people. There are people here from many traditions and different geographic locations. In general, more information is helpful when asking a question like this as different orders have different areas of focus. Why do you want to join an order? What orders have chapters near you? Are you looking for a curriculum to follow or something more? Are you looking for friends? Connections? Are you interested in an order with religious ties or one without?

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Re: Which order should I apply for?

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BrokenSeeker wrote:There has been a lot of this question going around lately and just about as many answers for it as there are people. There are people here from many traditions and different geographic locations. In general, more information is helpful when asking a question like this as different orders have different areas of focus. Why do you want to join an order? What orders have chapters near you? Are you looking for a curriculum to follow or something more? Are you looking for friends? Connections? Are you interested in an order with religious ties or one without?
I'm looking more for long term alliance with fellow magicians with a common interest as well as mentorship. I'd rather not have religious ties or a specific curriculum but rather a group that functions like a coven of some sort, a tight group. It doesn't have to be big. Not a like an institution, but a group of people who are focused specifically on alliance/fraternal loyalty and progressing toward a specific goal or cause, what ever it may be. If possible with such a description, I would prefer an order with a very well constructed tradition with a focus specifically on planetary magick.

Would you have any recommendations?

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Re: Which order should I apply for?

Post by BrokenSeeker »

I'm not familiar with any orders that practice planetary magick specifically (I think Golden Dawn uses it some but I'm not positive). I don't know that I can really tell you any more than is available on the web. I know it's maddening to sift through so many horrible, poorly maintained websites but it's sort of like a first rite of initiation. Choosing an order is so incredibly personal, I find it difficult to give much advice other than, only bother joining an order if you feel a strong connection to it. Good luck.

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Re: Which order should I apply for?

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The Order of Nine Angles does a lot of planetary magic, but the presence has deteriorated to a bunch of want to be criminals who, as the ONA texts often laugh at, couldn't see past their Exoteric shell. Besides, I'm sure you can have a speciality in any order, as most have sub orders. I think most serious, not new age groups have abandoned it otherwise. I'm sure Wicca like planet magic though.
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Re: Which order should I apply for?

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Hadit wrote:The Order of Nine Angles does a lot of planetary magic, but the presence has deteriorated to a bunch of want to be criminals who, as the ONA texts often laugh at, couldn't see past their Exoteric shell. Besides, I'm sure you can have a speciality in any order, as most have sub orders. I think most serious, not new age groups have abandoned it otherwise. I'm sure Wicca like planet magic though.
Why have they abandoned planetary magick? Isn't that one of the core aspects of Hermetic high magick, dealing with beings from the Sephirahs?

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Re: Which order should I apply for?

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XxMxX wrote:
Hadit wrote:The Order of Nine Angles does a lot of planetary magic, but the presence has deteriorated to a bunch of want to be criminals who, as the ONA texts often laugh at, couldn't see past their Exoteric shell. Besides, I'm sure you can have a speciality in any order, as most have sub orders. I think most serious, not new age groups have abandoned it otherwise. I'm sure Wicca like planet magic though.
Why have they abandoned planetary magick? Isn't that one of the core aspects of Hermetic high magick, dealing with beings from the Sephirahs?
I don't think ONA is too focused on Hermetic high magick right now, to say the least.
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Re: Which order should I apply for?

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the_spiral wrote:I don't think ONA is too focused on Hermetic high magick right now, to say the least.
I meant the 'serious orders' he mentioned.

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Re: Which order should I apply for?

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XxMxX wrote:
Hadit wrote:The Order of Nine Angles does a lot of planetary magic, but the presence has deteriorated to a bunch of want to be criminals who, as the ONA texts often laugh at, couldn't see past their Exoteric shell. Besides, I'm sure you can have a speciality in any order, as most have sub orders. I think most serious, not new age groups have abandoned it otherwise. I'm sure Wicca like planet magic though.
Why have they abandoned planetary magick? Isn't that one of the core aspects of Hermetic high magick, dealing with beings from the Sephirahs?
I suppose they probably haven't, actually. You make a sad point. But why go reaching for a bunch of spherical matter clumps flying predictably through the sky? That's not where magic is.
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Re: Which order should I apply for?

Post by Hadit »

the_spiral wrote:
XxMxX wrote:
Hadit wrote:The Order of Nine Angles does a lot of planetary magic, but the presence has deteriorated to a bunch of want to be criminals who, as the ONA texts often laugh at, couldn't see past their Exoteric shell. Besides, I'm sure you can have a speciality in any order, as most have sub orders. I think most serious, not new age groups have abandoned it otherwise. I'm sure Wicca like planet magic though.
Why have they abandoned planetary magick? Isn't that one of the core aspects of Hermetic high magick, dealing with beings from the Sephirahs?
I don't think ONA is too focused on Hermetic high magick right now, to say the least.
Actually they're extremely focused on what's known as "hermetic high magic". Planetary workings are a big part of their septenary system. Personally not for me, but I do fucking love their less floofy stuff. It's nice to see a true occult order focused on actual magic, even if a bunch of want to be criminals and overzealous Exoteric trolling has ruined their image.
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Re: Which order should I apply for?

Post by XxMxX »

Hadit wrote: I suppose they probably haven't, actually. You make a sad point. But why go reaching for a bunch of spherical matter clumps flying predictably through the sky? That's not where magic is.
True. lol What kind of beings do you work with then?

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Re: Which order should I apply for?

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XxMxX wrote:
Hadit wrote: I suppose they probably haven't, actually. You make a sad point. But why go reaching for a bunch of spherical matter clumps flying predictably through the sky? That's not where magic is.
True. lol What kind of beings do you work with then?
I dig the Egyptian and Lovecraftian archetypes. There really is only one Being though, and one Non-Being, however you attempt to understand that.
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Re: Which order should I apply for?

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Hadit wrote: I dig the Egyptian and Lovecraftian archetypes. There really is only one Being though, and one Non-Being, however you attempt to understand that.
Just curious, what kind of things have you accomplished with the lovecraftian entities? They tend to be kinda predatory, don't they?

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Re: Which order should I apply for?

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XxMxX wrote:
Hadit wrote: I dig the Egyptian and Lovecraftian archetypes. There really is only one Being though, and one Non-Being, however you attempt to understand that.
Just curious, what kind of things have you accomplished with the lovecraftian entities? They tend to be kinda predatory, don't they?
To me, the Lovecraftian gods are the darkness before the light, the primal blackness from which all things came acausally. Most mystics go internally for the light within us, but the dark is deeper than that. I wouldn't say it's predatory, but it's a very empathetic and humbling realm. All the palaces of the cosmos mean nothing to them, the greatest accomplishments of the gods themselves are nihilistic folly for them. They're the true, non natural, experiencial only magic.
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Re: Which order should I apply for?

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Hadit wrote:To me, the Lovecraftian gods are the darkness before the light, the primal blackness from which all things came acausally. Most mystics go internally for the light within us, but the dark is deeper than that. I wouldn't say it's predatory, but it's a very empathetic and humbling realm. All the palaces of the cosmos mean nothing to them, the greatest accomplishments of the gods themselves are nihilistic folly for them. They're the true, non natural, experiencial only magic.
Even older than most powerful entities in the universe? Damn! Have you ever done full-on evocations with any of them?

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Re: Which order should I apply for?

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XxMxX wrote:
Hadit wrote:To me, the Lovecraftian gods are the darkness before the light, the primal blackness from which all things came acausally. Most mystics go internally for the light within us, but the dark is deeper than that. I wouldn't say it's predatory, but it's a very empathetic and humbling realm. All the palaces of the cosmos mean nothing to them, the greatest accomplishments of the gods themselves are nihilistic folly for them. They're the true, non natural, experiencial only magic.
Even older than most powerful entities in the universe? Damn! Have you ever done full-on evocations with any of them?
It's strange, you don't really evoke the other gods / the acausal / chaos, it's more like you're brought before them, like they don't manifest in this world. The clearest experience was with an entity technically not Lovecraftian, the King in Yellow. Something I would highly recommend avoiding to those uninitiated in the view of "cosmicism". I had a Temple of Set friend who said they have/had a full sub order dedicated to it, especially the summoning of Nyarlathotep. I've vibrated his name in meditation and experiences "it", but the king in yellow is the only one I've truly had any contact with.
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Re: Which order should I apply for?

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Hadit wrote: It's strange, you don't really evoke the other gods / the acausal / chaos, it's more like you're brought before them, like they don't manifest in this world. The clearest experience was with an entity technically not Lovecraftian, the King in Yellow. Something I would highly recommend avoiding to those uninitiated in the view of "cosmicism". I had a Temple of Set friend who said they have/had a full sub order dedicated to it, especially the summoning of Nyarlathotep. I've vibrated his name in meditation and experiences "it", but the king in yellow is the only one I've truly had any contact with.
Have you ever personally entered into contracts with any of the Goetic Entities?

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Re: Which order should I apply for?

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XxMxX wrote:
Hadit wrote: It's strange, you don't really evoke the other gods / the acausal / chaos, it's more like you're brought before them, like they don't manifest in this world. The clearest experience was with an entity technically not Lovecraftian, the King in Yellow. Something I would highly recommend avoiding to those uninitiated in the view of "cosmicism". I had a Temple of Set friend who said they have/had a full sub order dedicated to it, especially the summoning of Nyarlathotep. I've vibrated his name in meditation and experiences "it", but the king in yellow is the only one I've truly had any contact with.
Have you ever personally entered into contracts with any of the Goetic Entities?
I have not formed contacts with entities in the Lesser Key, no.
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Re: Which order should I apply for?

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Hadit wrote:
XxMxX wrote:
Hadit wrote: I dig the Egyptian and Lovecraftian archetypes. There really is only one Being though, and one Non-Being, however you attempt to understand that.
Just curious, what kind of things have you accomplished with the lovecraftian entities? They tend to be kinda predatory, don't they?
To me, the Lovecraftian gods are the darkness before the light, the primal blackness from which all things came acausally. Most mystics go internally for the light within us, but the dark is deeper than that. I wouldn't say it's predatory, but it's a very empathetic and humbling realm. All the palaces of the cosmos mean nothing to them, the greatest accomplishments of the gods themselves are nihilistic folly for them. They're the true, non natural, experiencial only magic.
But aren't the lovecraftian gods fictional since they were just made up on the spot by the author?

Also what about the more primitive "spirits" or "gods" that were involved in the creation/moulding, shaping, prehistory and etc of this world or just associated with the Earth + whats in it literally? Were there any or they only came after? In Australia the natives worshipped very simplistic deities who were only nature spirits or creator spirits that shaped the land mass in a duration before our current consciousness called "dream time". Might also explain why the spiritual/inner development there is naturally a little bit behind from the rest of the world(not necessarily in a bad way)? Its case is the most unknown/mysterious, there have been no attempts to contact people by its spirits or whoever and they are said to all be "underground".

Also is there such thing as any schools about tampering/swaying and creation of events/situations or fate as they call it? To control or create the sequences of events etc? I have currently tried and am good at theory because it requires lots of knowledge about cause and effect, where you then have to estimate the cause or effect then do an action that will lead to your predicted sequences of stuff happening though this is not always possible most of the time.

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Re: Which order should I apply for?

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Liberator wrote:But aren't the lovecraftian gods fictional since they were just made up on the spot by the author?
All gods are just fictional, made up by the author. Lovecraft was a materialist with no occult agenda channeling the "gods/forces" through dreams. To me that's more valid than people sitting around manipulating systems in order to create the perfect pantheon. Beside that, they really aren't gods at all, they are far greater than gods, beings of chaos from before ever an Elder God existed.
Also what about the more primitive "spirits" or "gods" that were involved in the creation/moulding, shaping, prehistory and etc of this world or just associated with the Earth + whats in it literally? Were there any or they only came after?
The "gods" I think are a natural part of the universe that evolved in extremely different ways than our purely material, three dimensional selves. It doesn't seem like they played a whole lot of a role in creating us, simply interacting with us up until a certain point in the late BCE. In Lovecraftian / Necronomicon terms, these would be the "elder" gods, those who keep chaos out and protect us with the proper rites, and so on.
Also is there such thing as any schools about tampering/swaying and creation of events/situations or fate as they call it? To control or create the sequences of events etc? I have currently tried and am good at theory because it requires lots of knowledge about cause and effect, where you then have to estimate the cause or effect then do an action that will lead to your predicted sequences of stuff happening though this is not always possible most of the time.
y

I like the Order of Nine Angles division between the causal aend acausal, order and chaos. The focus on manipulating the external, exoteric, causal world is "magicK", as in Crowleyan change in accordance with will. The Lovecraftian entities, on the other hand, are acausal and chaotic, they can only be understood by empathetic experience, and they certainly are not manipulable. Not even really understandable by way of reason and emotion, only a personal understanding. They are the actual magic, in my opinion, and I think the modern focus of occultism on the causal is a horrible outcome of trying to mainstream magic to keep up with science.
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Re: Which order should I apply for?

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Based on the new rules I think further Lovecraftian discourse in this thread is a violation. Someone pop one up! I'll be there till the day it dies.
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Re: Which order should I apply for?

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Hadit wrote:
Liberator wrote:But aren't the lovecraftian gods fictional since they were just made up on the spot by the author?
All gods are just fictional, made up by the author. Lovecraft was a materialist with no occult agenda channeling the "gods/forces" through dreams. To me that's more valid than people sitting around manipulating systems in order to create the perfect pantheon. Beside that, they really aren't gods at all, they are far greater than gods, beings of chaos from before ever an Elder God existed.
Also what about the more primitive "spirits" or "gods" that were involved in the creation/moulding, shaping, prehistory and etc of this world or just associated with the Earth + whats in it literally? Were there any or they only came after?
The "gods" I think are a natural part of the universe that evolved in extremely different ways than our purely material, three dimensional selves. It doesn't seem like they played a whole lot of a role in creating us, simply interacting with us up until a certain point in the late BCE. In Lovecraftian / Necronomicon terms, these would be the "elder" gods, those who keep chaos out and protect us with the proper rites, and so on.
Also is there such thing as any schools about tampering/swaying and creation of events/situations or fate as they call it? To control or create the sequences of events etc? I have currently tried and am good at theory because it requires lots of knowledge about cause and effect, where you then have to estimate the cause or effect then do an action that will lead to your predicted sequences of stuff happening though this is not always possible most of the time.
y

I like the Order of Nine Angles division between the causal aend acausal, order and chaos. The focus on manipulating the external, exoteric, causal world is "magicK", as in Crowleyan change in accordance with will. The Lovecraftian entities, on the other hand, are acausal and chaotic, they can only be understood by empathetic experience, and they certainly are not manipulable. Not even really understandable by way of reason and emotion, only a personal understanding. They are the actual magic, in my opinion, and I think the modern focus of occultism on the causal is a horrible outcome of trying to mainstream magic to keep up with science.
"The order of nine angles" stand for Neo-Nazism and Social-Darwinism which I am strongly against and want destroyed. Any others associated to tampering with the casual world that are the opposite, what would be considered the "extreme opposite" of social-darwinism/Neo-Nazism or do not have it?

Also why did "the gods" stop interacting with us at late BCE?

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Re: Which order should I apply for?

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Liberator wrote:
Hadit wrote:
Liberator wrote:But aren't the lovecraftian gods fictional since they were just made up on the spot by the author?
All gods are just fictional, made up by the author. Lovecraft was a materialist with no occult agenda channeling the "gods/forces" through dreams. To me that's more valid than people sitting around manipulating systems in order to create the perfect pantheon. Beside that, they really aren't gods at all, they are far greater than gods, beings of chaos from before ever an Elder God existed.
Also what about the more primitive "spirits" or "gods" that were involved in the creation/moulding, shaping, prehistory and etc of this world or just associated with the Earth + whats in it literally? Were there any or they only came after?
The "gods" I think are a natural part of the universe that evolved in extremely different ways than our purely material, three dimensional selves. It doesn't seem like they played a whole lot of a role in creating us, simply interacting with us up until a certain point in the late BCE. In Lovecraftian / Necronomicon terms, these would be the "elder" gods, those who keep chaos out and protect us with the proper rites, and so on.
Also is there such thing as any schools about tampering/swaying and creation of events/situations or fate as they call it? To control or create the sequences of events etc? I have currently tried and am good at theory because it requires lots of knowledge about cause and effect, where you then have to estimate the cause or effect then do an action that will lead to your predicted sequences of stuff happening though this is not always possible most of the time.
y

I like the Order of Nine Angles division between the causal aend acausal, order and chaos. The focus on manipulating the external, exoteric, causal world is "magicK", as in Crowleyan change in accordance with will. The Lovecraftian entities, on the other hand, are acausal and chaotic, they can only be understood by empathetic experience, and they certainly are not manipulable. Not even really understandable by way of reason and emotion, only a personal understanding. They are the actual magic, in my opinion, and I think the modern focus of occultism on the causal is a horrible outcome of trying to mainstream magic to keep up with science.
"The order of nine angles" stand for Neo-Nazism and Social-Darwinism which I am strongly against and want destroyed. Any others associated to tampering with the casual world that are the opposite, what would be considered the "extreme opposite" of social-darwinism/Neo-Nazism or do not have it?

Also why did "the gods" stop interacting with us at late BCE?
The ONA let their external image get out of control. Their ideas of the cosmos, the star game, their sigil - all genius. The Greek gods raped humans and most pagan gods required sacrifice, yet we generally accept that these philosophies evolve. The same can be said of the ONA, just like things can be taken from it. If there's something to complain about there it's their ironic obsession with causal/physical fitness and their external image.

Who knows why the gods do what they do. They're gods, I'm human.
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Re: Which order should I apply for?

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Liberator wrote:"The order of nine angles" stand for Neo-Nazism and Social-Darwinism which I am strongly against and want destroyed. Any others associated to tampering with the casual world that are the opposite, what would be considered the "extreme opposite" of social-darwinism/Neo-Nazism or do not have it?

Also why did "the gods" stop interacting with us at late BCE?
Fascism/Socialism are the only truly operational government forms there are in the western world. The problem is that the liberal masses are so damn afraid of power (because of the monsters they created in WWII) that it is not socially acceptable to support a government that directly acknowledges the need for security, balance, and unity in a sovereign state . Though socialism is considered a far left ideology, the societies Hitler and Franco created when they finally unified the interest of the people were similar in a lot of ways and accomplished many of the same things. Very low unemployment, very low crime, balanced economy, foreign affairs didn't run the government, ideals over exaggerated individualism, secure borders, balance between classes, direct action in times of conflict, self sustained production of resources, etc. Only thing is, Hitler and Mussolini got drunk on their own power. Franco, however, refrained from causing international conflict and focused on maintaining a secure state.

Neo-nazism is known to be a white supremacist ideology (publicly known to be tied to criminal groups), not exactly national socialist or fascist.

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Re: Which order should I apply for?

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XxMxX wrote:
Liberator wrote:"The order of nine angles" stand for Neo-Nazism and Social-Darwinism which I am strongly against and want destroyed. Any others associated to tampering with the casual world that are the opposite, what would be considered the "extreme opposite" of social-darwinism/Neo-Nazism or do not have it?

Also why did "the gods" stop interacting with us at late BCE?
Fascism/Socialism are the only truly operational government forms there are in the western world. The problem is that the liberal masses are so damn afraid of power (because of the monsters they created in WWII) that it is not socially acceptable to support a government that directly acknowledges the need for security, balance, and unity in a sovereign state . Though socialism is considered a far left ideology, the societies Hitler and Franco created when they finally unified the interest of the people were similar in a lot of ways and accomplished many of the same things. Very low unemployment, very low crime, balanced economy, foreign affairs didn't run the government, ideals over exaggerated individualism, secure borders, balance between classes, direct action in times of conflict, self sustained production of resources, etc. Only thing is, Hitler and Mussolini got drunk on their own power. Franco, however, refrained from causing international conflict and focused on maintaining a secure state.

Neo-nazism is known to be a white supremacist ideology (publicly known to be tied to criminal groups), not exactly national socialist or fascist.
Your only problem with Hitler is his ego?
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