Doing rituals for something that already happened?

[Hadit]

@rock demon

Yeah, every thing always has happened, is happening, andbwill happen again. For all eternity we're having this conversation in this area of space and time, whether we chose to freely or otherwise.

[RockDemon]

@rock demon

Yeah, every thing always has happened, is happening, andbwill happen again. For all eternity we're having this conversation in this area of space and time, whether we chose to freely or otherwise.

Yes I understand the part about us I having this conversation for all eternity my question is did we chose it or no ?

[RockDemon]

Magic can let you manifest any sensation, including the sensation of free will, and I believe the sensation of free will has confused/deceived many.

And what can you say about the concept of the infinity that I used ?

[RockDemon]

Oh yeah, changing the past is intriguing. You can waste all of your present trying to. It still won't work.

[lol] Yes an obvious danger.

I'd love to hear more about Dream Yoga and where you're learning it. That's one I haven't heard of before.

I learn it at home all by myself with this book.
It was suggested to my here by Rin. Though he didn't practiced it in full but it is quite a worth read even for it's theory only. I am still in the middle of the practice. But I'll try to explain it as best as I can.
So the ultimate goal of the practice is to train one's awareness and bring it to the middle energy channel of oneself. Thus freeing him/her of karmic traces resulting in the ultimate "rigpa" (awareness) and after death not being reincarnated on this physical plane again.
There are 3 energy channels in our body according to the book. The white/negative channel which is located in the left part of women's body and right part in men's body. Then there is the red/'positive' channel which is on the opposite site respectfully. In the middle of those is the blue/neutral/wisdom channel. (In some exercises one sleeps on the side of its negative channel to pressure negative aspects resulting in positive dreams).
Karmic trace is our reaction to experience that happens automatically. As a primitive example consider some psychological complexes people have, such as phobias, taboos and so on. Or for example there is a person one hates. When they meet the latter becomes angry. So in the practice he must become aware of that Karmic trace and not become angry when he meets that person. If not the trace will go on which may result in more karmic traces. Hate and other emotions are karmic traces in themselves as well. That is how experience is formed. And in the same way our dreams are formed. We carry our Karmic traces into our dreams as well. Moreover in our dreams it is only the Karmic traces that form the experience. We grasp and averse in them without being aware of those and guess what?? This results in more karmic traces which carry over in the waking life. So there are practice to stop these trace breeding through some meditations which cause different dreams developing one's different aspects. And as lucidity is obtained during the practice you can use your dreams to break the karmic traces in various ways. This is so far I got into the practice.
I hope I was able to explain well, RoseRed. If you have any specific questions then please ask.

[Hadit]

@rock demon

Yeah, every thing always has happened, is happening, andbwill happen again. For all eternity we're having this conversation in this area of space and time, whether we chose to freely or otherwise.

Yes I understand the part about us I having this conversation for all eternity my question is did we chose it or no ?

Who knows.

[RockDemon]

@rock demon

Yeah, every thing always has happened, is happening, andbwill happen again. For all eternity we're having this conversation in this area of space and time, whether we chose to freely or otherwise.

Yes I understand the part about us I having this conversation for all eternity my question is did we chose it or no ?

Who knows.

True

[RaineAshford]

Magic can let you manifest any sensation, including the sensation of free will, and I believe the sensation of free will has confused/deceived many.

And what can you say about the concept of the infinity that I used ?

I believe there's an end to the beginning and that's significant enough to be represented as physics. But eternity has no end.

Perhaps it's the end of the beginning that created friction for sensations that seemed like free will that applies to us eternally.


>We can bring in the concept of the parallel universes and so on but that doesn't seem to solve things either.

Think of existence as 3 facets rather than just space and time, with the third being the end to the beginning allowing eternity to flow.

[Shinichi]

You can work on the threads of Fate to modify someone's Orlog/Karma, including your own after you're able. You can do quite a lot.

As much as I read about Karma it was not allowed to change it or it will result in more "bad" Karma.. Can you elaborate a bit, Shinichi ?

<from the other post: >

I misunderstood myself while posting that question which ended up to be vaguely. I am myself in the practices of Dream Yoga which is all about changing the Karmic traces. Then there is the introspection from IIH which changes Karmic traces as well I guess. My question was intended to be about Franz Bardon specifically. As much as I read his works or about him he seems to not be fond of changing ones karma and especially others karma while he himself was able to do so for sure. I wonder why not if there are such abilities ? Is that some rough right hand path and left hand path border?

There's no such thing as good karma or bad karma, and Bardon touches upon this in his Cause and Effect chapter in the IIH. There is only the pebble, the pond, and the act of causing ripples.

This, you must understand, is why Bardon warned against apprentices messing around with "Karma" until they have developed a high grade of Clairvoyance, can See what their ripples will do, and ideally have initiated far enough to be beyond the primary influence of karma (at least, the "lower web" that binds most people). Because like Sypheara and RR already touched upon, you can't really make the ripples go away, especially as an aspirant. You can only cause more ripples. Even if you achieve high spiritual states like the Daoist Non-Action attainment, which means you can act in the world without causing ripples and without being attached to the ripples you've already caused - even then, the ripples previously caused will still be there, affecting other people. Becoming a boulder in the stream doesn't mean the stream isn't still affecting others.

A good example of the consequences of messing with karma comes from Bardon's own life. For most of his early life he suffered from high blood pressure. He never cured himself of this (or any of his other health issues), even though he was a renowned healer, because he Clairvoyantly understood the necessity of the disease. One of his students, however, kept pestering Bardon to just take one of his many potions that easily remedied this simple problem, and one day Bardon gave in and took the alchemical tincture. The potion, while curing the "high" blood pressure, completely backfired by simply tilting the problem in the other direction. Bardon suffered with low blood pressure from that point on, and never again gave in to the urge to challenge fate like this. He simply lived with the "karma," and lived it out.

So it's really not a matter of "good" or "bad." There is just the pebble, the pond, and the ripples. Any action to change previous ripples is simply another pebble in the pond, and if you don't understand this, and apply Wisdom to the broader perspective, then you'll get tangled up in more ripples and just cause an even bigger mess. This is why Bardon warns against messing with Karma. Until you reach a deep enough initiation to understand and rise above it, playing with Karma is like playing with a very dangerous fire.



~:Shin:~

[RockDemon]

You can work on the threads of Fate to modify someone's Orlog/Karma, including your own after you're able. You can do quite a lot.

As much as I read about Karma it was not allowed to change it or it will result in more "bad" Karma.. Can you elaborate a bit, Shinichi ?

<from the other post: >

I misunderstood myself while posting that question which ended up to be vaguely. I am myself in the practices of Dream Yoga which is all about changing the Karmic traces. Then there is the introspection from IIH which changes Karmic traces as well I guess. My question was intended to be about Franz Bardon specifically. As much as I read his works or about him he seems to not be fond of changing ones karma and especially others karma while he himself was able to do so for sure. I wonder why not if there are such abilities ? Is that some rough right hand path and left hand path border?

There's no such thing as good karma or bad karma, and Bardon touches upon this in his Cause and Effect chapter in the IIH. There is only the pebble, the pond, and the act of causing ripples.

This, you must understand, is why Bardon warned against apprentices messing around with "Karma" until they have developed a high grade of Clairvoyance, can See what their ripples will do, and ideally have initiated far enough to be beyond the primary influence of karma (at least, the "lower web" that binds most people). Because like Sypheara and RR already touched upon, you can't really make the ripples go away, especially as an aspirant. You can only cause more ripples. Even if you achieve high spiritual states like the Daoist Non-Action attainment, which means you can act in the world without causing ripples and without being attached to the ripples you've already caused - even then, the ripples previously caused will still be there, affecting other people. Becoming a boulder in the stream doesn't mean the stream isn't still affecting others.

A good example of the consequences of messing with karma comes from Bardon's own life. For most of his early life he suffered from high blood pressure. He never cured himself of this (or any of his other health issues), even though he was a renowned healer, because he Clairvoyantly understood the necessity of the disease. One of his students, however, kept pestering Bardon to just take one of his many potions that easily remedied this simple problem, and one day Bardon gave in and took the alchemical tincture. The potion, while curing the "high" blood pressure, completely backfired by simply tilting the problem in the other direction. Bardon suffered with low blood pressure from that point on, and never again gave in to the urge to challenge fate like this. He simply lived with the "karma," and lived it out.

So it's really not a matter of "good" or "bad." There is just the pebble, the pond, and the ripples. Any action to change previous ripples is simply another pebble in the pond, and if you don't understand this, and apply Wisdom to the broader perspective, then you'll get tangled up in more ripples and just cause an even bigger mess. This is why Bardon warns against messing with Karma. Until you reach a deep enough initiation to understand and rise above it, playing with Karma is like playing with a very dangerous fire.



~:Shin:~

And 'suddenly' everything makes sense . So I'll try not to mess with Karma as much as possible , at least till I reach that step.
Thanks Shinichi [happy2]

[RockDemon]

Magic can let you manifest any sensation, including the sensation of free will, and I believe the sensation of free will has confused/deceived many.

And what can you say about the concept of the infinity that I used ?

I believe there's an end to the beginning and that's significant enough to be represented as physics. But eternity has no end.

Perhaps it's the end of the beginning that created friction for sensations that seemed like free will that applies to us eternally.


>We can bring in the concept of the parallel universes and so on but that doesn't seem to solve things either.

Think of existence as 3 facets rather than just space and time, with the third being the end to the beginning allowing eternity to flow.

Cannot comprehend that well, maybe I'm not ready for that , anyway right now that doesn't make sense to me. But thanks for sharing the ideas that gave me a few things to think about.

[RoseRed]

Becoming a boulder in the stream doesn't mean the stream isn't still affecting others.

Being a boulder doesn't mean that the stream still isn't affecting you. It just takes a lot longer to see it.

[RockDemon]

longer to see? Maybe you mean it just takes a longer time to affect the boulder ?

[RoseRed]

It constantly affects the boulder. But the boulder is large and hard and it's hard to see the changes happening because they happen so slowly - but happen they do.

[RockDemon]

It constantly affects the boulder. But the boulder is large and hard and it's hard to see the changes happening because they happen so slowly - but happen they do.

Since the boulder is just a metaphor for the magician , and magician is a conscious being then doesn't that mean that he is still aware of that changes and still is in control?

[RoseRed]

No.

[RockDemon]

Why?

[RoseRed]

Because the magician is still human and lives in a world that requires too much attention to the mundane unless s/he is independently wealthy and can like like the dudes that wrote the grimoires.

We get caught up with life and human stuff. You know - like the roof over your head, the food on your table - life. We don't notice all that happens to us. Think of how many geriatric patients have no idea that their arteries are 70% blocked. They had no idea that something that slow was happening. Same concept.

[RockDemon]

That brings a question of mine that I always wanted to ask... why then so many magicians end up struggling for such mundane things? I personally do not abandon my mundane problems or financial problems I take care of them as well, and as I am practicing magick for a while , it gets even better.

[Arzachel]

Hi guys. I don't want to interrupt, but it seems you misunderstood the issue you are addressing. RockDemon, the article you've quoted says that by performing magick for an event that has already happened you develop a feeling of success and therefore confidence for future magickal working, and that it also helps you change your perception of time. It does not tell anything about actual time manipulation

[Moth]

Simultaneous time doesn't contradict free will, it just holds that you only take one path in the end no matter how freely you take it.

Absolutely this. It is however possible (like the praying example) to do magic for things that happened in the past which you *do not know the outcome for in the present*.

The path you follow can contain any number of previous possibilities, as long as they do not directly contradict your current state. Well they can, but that's the sort of thing that ends up with insane magicians :-) You end up with a path where you remember one thing, and everyone else remembers it differently :-)