Question About Meditation...

Information and advice for those new to the Occult.

Post Reply
User avatar
Vratis
Forum Member
Forum Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:51 am

Question About Meditation...

Post by Vratis »

I have long been drawn to, and studied (in theory) the realms of the occult and magickal. (as I posted in another area asking for help with reading material). Any book, ebook, text, article, and other occultists will tell you that meditation is the key with which all magick is unlocked. Many people struggle with any exercise involving mastery of thought process. I am one of these people. I've read on countless threads, and talked with numerous people online who say they've been stuck on the first step of the IIH for entirely too long. I've read over and over that many people give up on magick because of their perceived inability to meditate, and attune their focus. Now to get to my question...

Do you experienced practitioners, (in your varying castes and paradigms) consider guided meditation to be a good starting point? Does it hold the same value as traditional meditation? Can you achieve the same trance states, or magickal mindsets while being guided by audio through a visualization of sorts? I know this is not exactly the same as a mindfulness meditation, or void meditation. Are the true magickal benefits and focus to be found in the practice of calming the mind, and not following guided imagery to the voice of another?

Also, any pro-tips you can offer up regarding the foundations of practice would be greatly appreciated. And if you struggled in a similar fashion with meditation and focus..... please share it. There is a great deal of difference between knowledge of occult theory, and actual measurable practice. I would love to get as much insight as possible.

Thanks,

Vratis
"There is no good or evil, but thinking makes it so." - W. Shakespeare

"The unexamined life is not worth living." - Socrates

lovebugg305
Forum Member
Forum Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:16 am

Re: Question About Meditation...

Post by lovebugg305 »

Great topic and I hope more people on here, chime in, about there "real" experiences; or theories. I am curious as well....

When I hear people at my job say, that meditation works for them and helps them relax. I immediately know that these people dont know what they are doing.

The purpose of real meditation, or real prayer, consists of putting oneself into a trance. Its up to each individual, with practice, to find a technique that works for them.

User avatar
WillowDarkWytch
Forum Member
Forum Member
Posts: 308
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:41 am

Re: Question About Meditation...

Post by WillowDarkWytch »

Motumbá Àse!

Let's see if I may help
Vratis wrote:I have long been drawn to, and studied (in theory) the realms of the occult and magickal. (as I posted in another area asking for help with reading material). Any book, ebook, text, article, and other occultists will tell you that meditation is the key with which all magick is unlocked.
No, Meditation it's not the key to magick. The key to magick is Mind, your mind needs to be clear. Meditation is a good way to calm your thoughts. There's a difference betwen being the key to magick and being really helpful to magick practitioners
Many people struggle with any exercise involving mastery of thought process.
Meditation isn't a "visualization exercise". Meditation, real meditation is to quiet the mind and that means do NOTHING but being there. It's pretty simple and quite difficult sometimes, mostly because we overthink it. Just don't. Also a key (yes A key not THE key) to magick is actually visualization. Meditation gives you awareness of your "sensitivity", spiritual and astral sensitivity.
[...] I've read on countless threads, and talked with numerous people online who say they've been stuck on the first step of the IIH for entirely too long.
The same above. They don't understand what they're supposed to do. That's why they get stuck. When I did IIH, I was about 16 years old. Maybe 17. I read it and I understood pretty much everything, but also I was being taught by older magickians and occultist, in person, so when I talked about meditation, they explained to me what really was. So I didn't have that problem, my problem was my ansiety hehehe I wanted to finish YESTERDAY something I was doing TODAY hehehe

I've read over and over that many people give up on magick because of their perceived inability to meditate, and attune their focus. Now to get to my question...
That's another mistake. I had (and sometime have) problems to meditate in the typical Zen way, so I am not a Zen practitioner. But magick and most rituals have movements. There are other ways to focus while moving. There's no such thing as a "one way to do things". That's the thing. Find the way or the method to focus and silence your mind. Maybe Yoga.

Do you experienced practitioners, (in your varying castes and paradigms) consider guided meditation to be a good starting point? Does it hold the same value as traditional meditation? Can you achieve the same trance states, or magickal mindsets while being guided by audio through a visualization of sorts?
Meditation is NOT visualization. They both work for different goals.
[...] Are the true magickal benefits and focus to be found in the practice of calming the mind, and not following guided imagery to the voice of another?
the benefits of Meditation are not "magical". Are spiritual, mystical. Meditation is a mystical method, developed for mystical reasons, and used for us, magick users and practitioners, to achieve more/expanded consciousness. Higher state of consciousness. THAT obvously helps and improves our magick, but it's not a "magical techenique".

Also, any pro-tips you can offer up regarding the foundations of practice would be greatly appreciated.
Practice Meditation and practice Visualization.

For Meditation: Sit in a chair with your back straight up, shoulders a little back to better your position. Breathe filling your abdomen when you inhale, and empty your abdomen when you exhale. Close your eyes, and, with eyes closed, look at the tip of your nose. Focus on the air coming in and out you nostrils. Keep your mind in that.

For visualization, use Bardon instructions. Are awesomely good.

And if you struggled in a similar fashion with meditation and focus..... please share it. There is a great deal of difference between knowledge of occult theory, and actual measurable practice. I would love to get as much insight as possible.
As I said, I'm not a fan of Zen meditation. Though I managed to overcome my "mind noise". Those who quit, didn't really like what they were doing or didn't have a "call".

Saravá!
Idansinají

User avatar
Desecrated
Benefactor
Benefactor
Posts: 3223
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:50 pm
Location: The north

Re: Question About Meditation...

Post by Desecrated »

Vratis wrote:
Do you experienced practitioners, (in your varying castes and paradigms) consider guided meditation to be a good starting point?


Yes.

Does it hold the same value as traditional meditation?
What's the difference?
Can you achieve the same trance states, or magickal mindsets while being guided by audio through a visualization of sorts?
No. Although that might help and it is a valid form of practice. But at some point you just have to let go of the training wheels.

I know this is not exactly the same as a mindfulness meditation, or void meditation. Are the true magickal benefits and focus to be found in the practice of calming the mind, and not following guided imagery to the voice of another?
Yes.
This is just my personal opinion, but I like to do things for myself.
Also, any pro-tips you can offer up regarding the foundations of practice would be greatly appreciated. And if you struggled in a similar fashion with meditation and focus..... please share it. There is a great deal of difference between knowledge of occult theory, and actual measurable practice. I would love to get as much insight as possible.
It's better to practice 30 seconds in perfect control then 30 minutes in disarray.
Start with baby-steps, expect nothing, just do it.

Also, I want to give you the same advice as my zen teacher gave me: "relax harder".

User avatar
Desecrated
Benefactor
Benefactor
Posts: 3223
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:50 pm
Location: The north

Re: Question About Meditation...

Post by Desecrated »


Meditation isn't a "visualization exercise". Meditation, real meditation is to quiet the mind and that means do NOTHING but being there. It's pretty simple and quite difficult sometimes, mostly because we overthink it. Just don't. Also a key (yes A key not THE key) to magick is actually visualization. Meditation gives you awareness of your "sensitivity", spiritual and astral sensitivity.
Meditation is a pretty broad term. Because this is an international forum we also have to expect "meditation" to mean slightly different things to different people.
Even within traditions like Buddhism we have at least 14 different kinds of meditation and some of them are fairly visual. Although I do agree that in magic people usually tend to differentiate between meditation and visualization.
But meditation spans from thinking really hard, to not thinking at all.

It might be a bit rash to say that the kind of meditation you describe is "real" meditation. The wikipedia article explains it better and in more detail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation

User avatar
WillowDarkWytch
Forum Member
Forum Member
Posts: 308
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:41 am

Re: Question About Meditation...

Post by WillowDarkWytch »

Desecrated wrote: Meditation is a pretty broad term. Because this is an international forum we also have to expect "meditation" to mean slightly different things to different people.
Even within traditions like Buddhism we have at least 14 different kinds of meditation and some of them are fairly visual. Although I do agree that in magic people usually tend to differentiate between meditation and visualization.
But meditation spans from thinking really hard, to not thinking at all.

It might be a bit rash to say that the kind of meditation you describe is "real" meditation. The wikipedia article explains it better and in more detail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation
I'm not saying that you have ONE way of Meditation. But there's a difference betwen meditating from visualizing. Sometimes both get confused with each other.

I can tell you to meditate in death. Then, you'll meditate on a concept. I can tell you to meditate in the color red. Then you'll use visualization abilities to "see" the red color. I can tell you to meditate on a mantra. Then you'll use your vocals, your ability to vibrate sounds, etc. It's not the same to say "I do meditation" when you just exercise your visualization. I've heard people say that meditates when they're actually using creative visualization to accomplish things in life. That's not meditation.

That's what I meant. The little meditation exercise I gave him is for blanking your mind trhough focusing on breathing. No visualization needed, just attention.

User avatar
WillowDarkWytch
Forum Member
Forum Member
Posts: 308
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:41 am

Re: Question About Meditation...

Post by WillowDarkWytch »

PS: I saw this in the article you posted, Desecrated.
Saint Pio of Pietrelcina stated "Through the study of books one seeks God; by meditation one finds him."
That's pretty much how I feel and been taught in the tradition about Meditation

User avatar
Shinichi
Forum Member
Forum Member
Posts: 868
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:56 pm
Location: Earth

Re: Question About Meditation...

Post by Shinichi »

Vratis wrote:Do you experienced practitioners, (in your varying castes and paradigms) consider guided meditation to be a good starting point?
No.
Vratis wrote:Does it hold the same value as traditional meditation? Can you achieve the same trance states, or magickal mindsets while being guided by audio through a visualization of sorts?
No.
Vratis wrote:I know this is not exactly the same as a mindfulness meditation, or void meditation. Are the true magickal benefits and focus to be found in the practice of calming the mind, and not following guided imagery to the voice of another?
The true benefits are to be found in developing the ability to relax into your own center, at your own will, and stay there. When you use guided methods, you can essentially reach center and various trance states, but you are doing so through hypnotic techniques. This usually disconnects you from the state you are trying to achieve, unconsciously making it more difficult to get there without the crutch of your external help.
Vratis wrote:Also, any pro-tips you can offer up regarding the foundations of practice would be greatly appreciated.
Read the Fundamental Development thing in my signature, also found in PDF form here.



~:Shin:~

User avatar
WillowDarkWytch
Forum Member
Forum Member
Posts: 308
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:41 am

Re: Question About Meditation...

Post by WillowDarkWytch »

~:Shin:~ wrote:
The true benefits are to be found in developing the ability to relax into your own center, at your own will, and stay there. When you use guided methods, you can essentially reach center and various trance states, but you are doing so through hypnotic techniques. This usually disconnects you from the state you are trying to achieve, unconsciously making it more difficult to get there without the crutch of your external help.
Àse!

User avatar
Desecrated
Benefactor
Benefactor
Posts: 3223
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:50 pm
Location: The north

Re: Question About Meditation...

Post by Desecrated »

WillowDarkWytch wrote:PS: I saw this in the article you posted, Desecrated.
Saint Pio of Pietrelcina stated "Through the study of books one seeks God; by meditation one finds him."
That's pretty much how I feel and been taught in the tradition about Meditation
"If you find the buddha on your path, cut him down" Zen saying.

I went looking for god once, but I only found myself. I didn't like that answer so I lost myself again, and it took me some time, but I'm really comfortable with not knowing now.

User avatar
RockDemon
Forum Member
Forum Member
Posts: 637
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:22 pm

Re: Question About Meditation...

Post by RockDemon »

Guys what about the binaural beats and that kind of stuff?

User avatar
Ušušur
Forum Member
Forum Member
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:02 pm

Re: Question About Meditation...

Post by Ušušur »

I've started with binaural beats. It helped. It doesn't mean it'll help everyone. Now, I don't need binaural beats. So I'd say try it, why not. For me, it worked much better than guided meditation.

To all this I would like to add that meditation for me was 'just' a tool that helped me to clear the mind from pointless thoughts and actions. The real benefits of meditations and magic, to me, came across everyday life and actions, not within that 30 minutes or whatever time I've spent focusing on something/nothing.

Focusing only on meditation, and then afterwards spending entire day thinking about mundane stuff or letting unproductive/bad/toxic/pointless thoughts occupy your mind, I wouldn't say you're achieving much. (this is all about context, there is no rule what is a 'bad thought')

What I'm trying to say is... it's not ABOUT meditation. It's really about changing your entire mindset.

User avatar
Spida
Forum Member
Forum Member
Posts: 2125
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:48 pm
Location: New England

Re: Question About Meditation...

Post by Spida »

This might sound stupid, but no one ever mentions the first thing you see when you close your eyes to meditate: This inner darkness, or maybe its just me. It's not pure absence of light, but close. After I clear my mind, its just my "being" enveloped in darkness. Then, at varying degrees, I will see patches of color, or twisting and turning shapes of color zooming around. The colors are only slightly more vivid than the darkness. I see other odd things sometimes as well. I don't try to eliminate the colors and return to darkness. I actually like it and consider it part of my meditation. Sometimes these things i see will affect me enough to give me slight energy rushes, or an intense tingling sensation.

User avatar
Vratis
Forum Member
Forum Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:51 am

Re: Question About Meditation...

Post by Vratis »

I just want to thank everyone for their replies. It's pretty obvious that everyone has their own opinion regarding meditation, and the definition thereof. That's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks again to everyone who shared personal opinions, and reading material. It's highly appreciated.


Vratis-
"There is no good or evil, but thinking makes it so." - W. Shakespeare

"The unexamined life is not worth living." - Socrates

User avatar
Desecrated
Benefactor
Benefactor
Posts: 3223
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:50 pm
Location: The north

Re: Question About Meditation...

Post by Desecrated »

RockDemon wrote:Guys what about the binaural beats and that kind of stuff?
I like them.

User avatar
Desecrated
Benefactor
Benefactor
Posts: 3223
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:50 pm
Location: The north

Re: Question About Meditation...

Post by Desecrated »

Spida wrote:
This might sound stupid, but no one ever mentions the first thing you see when you close your eyes to meditate: This inner darkness, or maybe its just me. It's not pure absence of light, but close. After I clear my mind, its just my "being" enveloped in darkness. Then, at varying degrees, I will see patches of color, or twisting and turning shapes of color zooming around. The colors are only slightly more vivid than the darkness. I see other odd things sometimes as well. I don't try to eliminate the colors and return to darkness. I actually like it and consider it part of my meditation. Sometimes these things i see will affect me enough to give me slight energy rushes, or an intense tingling sensation.
The trick is to watch it without starting to think about it. Just let it roll by.

User avatar
RockDemon
Forum Member
Forum Member
Posts: 637
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:22 pm

Re: Question About Meditation...

Post by RockDemon »

Desecrated wrote:
RockDemon wrote:Guys what about the binaural beats and that kind of stuff?
I like them.
Are you able to reach trance state with them?

User avatar
Desecrated
Benefactor
Benefactor
Posts: 3223
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:50 pm
Location: The north

Re: Question About Meditation...

Post by Desecrated »

RockDemon wrote:
Desecrated wrote:
RockDemon wrote:Guys what about the binaural beats and that kind of stuff?
I like them.
Are you able to reach trance state with them?
No. But they help me relax.

Post Reply

Return to “Beginners Info”