Are spirits/energy "real"? (Belief as a Tool vs Real Danger)

[VoidWanderer]

There's so many different systems:

Psionics uses "energy" to cause effects.
Astral projection related things usually state that there is an astral body, an ethereal zone (Real time zone), and an astral zone.
Ceremonial magick uses pretty much anything (swords, candles, etc.)
A lot of rituals also involve the use of spirits.
Chaos magick uses whatever works.
...the list goes on

All the systems seem to have one thing in common: the use of intent to create an effect. But aside from that, most of them are quite different. I think I've heard about fake "spell books" (with made up demons and such) that people found would actually work for summoning.

I've personally tried psionics with mild success (I'm a noob [crazy] ) and I've tried sitting down, meditating to clear my mind, and charging sigils to some mild degrees of success as well.

I've noticed that whatever I do, as long as I believe what I'm doing will work, it seems to (and that my body has a natural tendency to freak out when stuff does work [at which point said stuff stops working]). I've also noticed that most pretty much all systems of magick involve a middle layer to getting an effect:

Have goal -> Use energy (psi) -> Effect caused
Have goal -> Summon spirit -> Effect caused
Have goal -> Charge a sigil -> Effect caused

This seems to me like it could (with extreme effort and skill) be even simplified to: Have goal -> Effect cause (But that would probably destabilize reality into it becoming something like a dream.)

Because all this middle man stuff seems like its just an interface for articulating will, I'm wondering if...

1) Spirits actually exist or if they are just perceived because they are expected to exist
2) Energy actually exists or if it is just perceived because it is expected to exist
3) Nothing really exists unless it is expected and therefore perceived (meaning that everything is just a bunch of semi-fixed quantum effect chains)
4) It doesn't really matter because what works... works (Which leads to two other questions.)
a) If it doesn't matter and everything is just belief based, then is it safe to temporarily delude oneself in order to get enough belief to actually manifest something?
b) Is deluding oneself needed (at all) to break away from the constraints of "normal thinking", or is it perfectly okay just to slowly ease yourself into magick and slowly get more and more tangible results.

Clearing this all up would mean the world to me. I'd like to train, but I want to know what I'm doing if I start trying to summon something (that might only be an illusion), and knowing what someone else tells me to do will only go so far (whereas some basic magickal theory could be adapted to anything and allow me to conduct my own future studies, so I can stop asking questions and answer them for myself [safe-ishly])

[Sypheara]

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1) Spirits actually exist or if they are just perceived because they are expected to exist
2) Energy actually exists or if it is just perceived because it is expected to exist
3) Nothing really exists unless it is expected and therefore perceived (meaning that everything is just a bunch of semi-fixed quantum effect chains)
4) It doesn't really matter because what works... works (Which leads to two other questions.)
a) If it doesn't matter and everything is just belief based, then is it safe to temporarily delude oneself in order to get enough belief to actually manifest something?
b) Is deluding oneself needed (at all) to break away from the constraints of "normal thinking", or is it perfectly okay just to slowly ease yourself into magick and slowly get more and more tangible results.

You are likely going to be bombarded with quite a few different takes on this for obvious reasons. But for what my two cence is worth:

1) Spirits actually exist. You will get various theories on to how and why, but there are plenty of documented cases to show that people who are sceptical or have no belief in spirits coming in contact with them. As such, from a working perspective, they must be treated with caution and a considered approach.

2) Energy actually exists, in many different forms. Energy in occult terms is quite nebulous - it doesnt really fit well into the scientific definition. Since energy is the ability to do work, and spirits if we follow one are external, its logical to assume they need to possess energy to act. We see plenty of evidence in the natural world of differing fields etc so its a logical, hypothetical extension that has basis in what is measurable. It also fits well with peoples personal experiences.

3) That doesnt mean nothing exists at all. It simply means more than one possibility exists before the waveform collapses and an output is received. Plenty of unexpected things happen daily, and without the need for a human observer. On a larger scale our universe is mostly ordered, and predictable. Failing to both understand and the misapplication of quantum theory is rife in the Occult. (Ask Desecrated, pretty sure this gets his back up as much as me from what i can remember).

4) That is like saying in science it doesnt matter because what works works. This is obviously correct, but then it doesnt follow that 'belief' is causing the effect, but repeatable formulae. Addressing A and B: This is a great way to break ones mind. By deluding yourself, rather than following repeatable, followable formulae you wont make much progress and just hamstring your approach. I come from a school of thought where working in the occult is to work the great work. This is best approach working a repeatable pattern where you can see tangible results, following a quasi scientific method. What these are might vary according to your nature and what you work with. Delusion is what you want to avoid, and Id argue is the greatest, and most constant enemy in the Occult that has led many people down wrong paths. Note: Anything that is perceptible must by definition exist. The real knack is finding out its source.

Im quite categorical on this because not approaching this correctly can open people up to backlash, and to even spirit possession by unwanted entities. Its all fun and games until some astral parasite slithers up inside someone and uses them as a sockpuppet for its own amusement.

[Nahemah]

Beliefs vary greatly here, between members, so this topic could get argumentative. Fun times.

I don't believe in spirit possession, personally, but I do accept that others believe in it, so it is real for them. And I don't find it a problem to work using other's beliefs, when assisting them with problems, generally speaking, due to this.

As to which set of truths is more correct, however: Individual Mileage May Vary( and sometimes Greatly).

If it doesn't matter and everything is just belief based, then is it safe to temporarily delude oneself in order to get enough belief to actually manifest something?
b) Is deluding oneself needed (at all) to break away from the constraints of "normal thinking", or is it perfectly okay just to slowly ease yourself into magick and slowly get more and more tangible results.

Delusion is an interesting choice of term.

Temporarily immersing oneself into a belief set is not the same as delusion, as delusion is not usually a conscious choice and has no set time frame for the sufferer.

Breaking social conditioning is also quite difficult for many people, whether they are magickians or otherwise, as it's so invasive and pervasive, especially in Western societies. Easing oneself in slowly is as good a tactic as any, I think, but do remember to stay thinking critically while you work.

[VoidWanderer]

If the slow approach is the best one, then what exactly makes a magickian able to do what he/she can do? The slow approach seems to imply (to me) that there's something akin to non-physical muscles that need to be worked slowly to get more ability. I can't reject the idea that there could be "etheric muscles", but it seems unlikely that any non-physical existence would be bound in the exact same way as this physical existence (though I suppose it's equally likely that anything non-physical could be similar to the physical). Is there even a difference between physical and non-physical things? Is this just a distinction made by human perspective? (An illusion)

Whatever the case, how do human actions cause things to manifest? If there is more than one functional system of beliefs for magick, then what actually makes magick work? (I'm still going to get opinionated answers, but I can live with that.) I'm trying to look at this almost from a video game perspective where you have specific attributes that do certain things (will, faith, intelligence, etc.) Is this perspective wrong?

[Sypheara]

In my view, its down to differences at soul level.

You are not entirely off with your etheric muscles analogy, but it isnt entirely representative (as no analogy can be).

I believe in both reincarnation, higher entities, and gnosis/power being stored at the soul level. If you accept those three predicates,it is easy to see the soul develops over many lifetimes based on work carried out, life experience, etc in each incarnation. , it explains the differences in peoples magickal ability. Work is done to unlock seals on the soul and internalise more of the vital spirit force of the various spheres of existence through magickal and physical tests, and trials.

What makes magick actually effective is 'work' done by either the practitioner or other spiritual entity, utilising occult energy for lackof a better term to keep things neutral. Where this 'energy' comes from is where the differing systems come in to play, and can be seen as an attempt to manipulate this.

In my work the energy to do 'work' is contained within our lifeblood, and that of the Gods. By utilising either my own soul power, or that of entities channelled through me, combined with correct method and formulae taught by them through direct contact, is how this is achieved.

To explain it briefly in formula form, using opening a gate for example, a typical operation would be:

((power source (spirit in possession or own raised sexual kalas)) * ((Blood (actual blood) + Sexual Fluid) as carrier) * (genuine magickal formula (physical construction) as given by spirit for that specific purpose)) = actual result of a created physical gate that can be recreated by others able to fulfil identical requirements.

An additional example would be how malefica affects different people, depending on their soul evolution. Ill use disease as my own imperfect analogy:

1) A person with a weak immune system is infected with Ebola like virus. They rapidly weaken, succumb and die to the disease with no chance of recovery.

2) A person with a strong immune system is infected with Ebola like virus. They weaken slower than 1, but they will still have a high chance of death or permanent, debilitating effects. They have little chance of recovery.

3) As above, but they are receiving medical treatment. They are more likely to recover than either 2 or 1, but they may still succumb and die.

4) They are inoculated against Ebola like virus. They might suffer mild effects, but will otherwise be completely unaffected by this viral strain.

It is difficult to explain in words, so hopefully the above is descriptive enough and that i have done an accurate enough job.

[VoidWanderer]

Please verify my understanding:

Existence is pretty much infinite in scope, and each individual or being has a "soul" that may or may not be immortal. This soul manifests in various environments (for example: earth) so that it can learn. It also continuously reincarnates to push past its previous failures so that it can overcome them.

Ex:
Life 1 - You walk on a street, trip, and break yourself on the ground - Soul learns that gravity is a thing
Life 2 - You walk on a street, don't trip because you're more careful, and see a person, this person then throws you on the ground (death) - Soul learns that people can be dangerous
Life 3 - Same thing happens, but you die again in a different way

The system repeats itself like an inescapable prison until your soul deems it necessary to move to another realm of existence.

In your magickal system, you use "energy" (potential) to do stuff (the energy is only measurable through what is does right?). This energy is manifest as the potential of what you and your Gods can do. By knowing your Gods, you can make their potential your potential in the same way that physical tools (axes, etc.) exist, but only affect the world when we channel their use by using them (hence, potential naturally manifests).

This is what I got out of your math:
potential * experience * tool = effect
[What your spirit/power source can do] * [What you can do] * [Effectiveness of the tool provided to channel spirit potential into your own]

Therefore, your skill is completely dependent on what you've done in past lives (compounded experience), what power sources your experience has driven you to take, and what experience this power source (spirit) also has.

So, in order to get better at magick, you have to remember the skills you had in past lives so that you can build on them, and find a power source that lets you get around physical laws (a power source not dependent on the physical at all, but that still has a connection to the physical in order for it to be useful).

Is this correct?

And also, you mentioned that you learned some of your skills through direct contact. Do you mean through physical manifestation (visible spirits), telepathy, through astral projections, or something else? I've long thought that it might benefit me to astrally project and attempt to contact a being to teach me some magick; what are your thoughts on this?

[Sypheara]

Please verify my understanding:

Existence is pretty much infinite in scope, and each individual or being has a "soul" that may or may not be immortal. This soul manifests in various environments (for example: earth) so that it can learn. It also continuously reincarnates to push past its previous failures so that it can overcome them.

Ex:
Life 1 - You walk on a street, trip, and break yourself on the ground - Soul learns that gravity is a thing
Life 2 - You walk on a street, don't trip because you're more careful, and see a person, this person then throws you on the ground (death) - Soul learns that people can be dangerous
Life 3 - Same thing happens, but you die again in a different way

The system repeats itself like an inescapable prison until your soul deems it necessary to move to another realm of existence.

In your magickal system, you use "energy" (potential) to do stuff (the energy is only measurable through what is does right?). This energy is manifest as the potential of what you and your Gods can do. By knowing your Gods, you can make their potential your potential in the same way that physical tools (axes, etc.) exist, but only affect the world when we channel their use by using them (hence, potential naturally manifests).

This is what I got out of your math:
potential * experience * tool = effect
[What your spirit/power source can do] * [What you can do] * [Effectiveness of the tool provided to channel spirit potential into your own]

Therefore, your skill is completely dependent on what you've done in past lives (compounded experience), what power sources your experience has driven you to take, and what experience this power source (spirit) also has.

So, in order to get better at magick, you have to remember the skills you had in past lives so that you can build on them, and find a power source that lets you get around physical laws (a power source not dependent on the physical at all, but that still has a connection to the physical in order for it to be useful).

Is this correct?

And also, you mentioned that you learned some of your skills through direct contact. Do you mean through physical manifestation (visible spirits), telepathy, through astral projections, or something else? I've long thought that it might benefit me to astrally project and attempt to contact a being to teach me some magick; what are your thoughts on this?

This is very close to what I meant, boiling it into its absolute basics yes. It loses nuance but is otherwise correct for the type of work that I do. As for maybe a bit more elaboration:

In order to get better its exploring your own skillset and whats within reach with a bit of effort, and growing your potential at soul level. It is the same as growing in any other way. The old in the old adage of 'know thyself' applies here extremely strongly which is why people tend to remember that adage.

Its best not to think of it as 'not depending on the physical'. Think of it all as a spectrum, with the physical on one end and realms that branch off it, dimensions as you were. Its all tied together, for me at least, there is no dualism of matter/spirit in that regard. Spirit for me is inherent in matter and vice versa - there is a complex interplay at work. When you work magick it is more that you have a foot in both and become, in that moment (at the very least) within the ritual the axis mundi. When constructing physical gates (ie using sigils carved into wood, bone, s tone, flesh etc) these can be seen as a microcosm also of the axis mundi. Either way you are working with something that is tangible. Note I see this energy as being like gravity, as you say, its mostly measurable by its observed effects. However it can be detected if you are psychically sensitive enough. Some people have more of a knack for it. I will fully admit im not a natural 'medium' although rudimentary skills in that area as necessary have been gifted to me.

By communicating directly I mean in mainly two forms, invocational / transvocational possession (which is best and crudely explained as a spectrum of how intense it is, the first is deeper), and evocation. In the first the entity is invited into the flesh, and it will speak to you directly in the mind. This isnt as an internal voice that we are used to, but feels as Other. This can feel as real as talking to another person, and range from anything from images placed into the mind to hearing full blown spirit voices.

Evocation is where the spirit is called up and can be physically seen, usually in some form of medium. I do this into a sphere of pure obsidian, and it works quite well. In these cases the spirit usually appears not in full form but shifted and warped by the medium. I have seen spirits physically manifest.. in several forms. Some as a dark mist, or other strange phenomena such as moving lights.

In one case I saw a viper faced entity that was as real and as solid as another human being, but that was in a extremely powerful place constructed as a primary place for drawing in magickal currents. I am going to be doing more evocation in regards to Lucifer, as being able to reliably evoke him is going to be a prerequisite for what comes next in my work i think.

My advice to you would be to begin with evocation. It is the most reliable way to attempt to contact a spirit whilst maintaining separation, which is necessary until you have built up a working relationship with a spirit. The issue with this kind of work is making sure what is coming through is definitely what you called upon. My first attempt was with invocation, and luckily due to already being 'noticed' by him it was successful but it could have gone quite wrong so I cant recommend that to begin with. Only after working relationship has been established should an entity be invited and allowed into the circle and worked with merged within the flesh.

Note that I have not meant work astrally here. I literally mean allow the entity to enter your body in possession work. This is why for some people its a step too far, and everyone has to set their own limits based on their own praxis. I have alot of accounts of this on my blog and links, if you fancy a more indepth read. I feel as if im leading this discussion a little much and it would be good for others to give their input based on their own practice..