Meditation Danger

[blindwake]

I've noticed that I can split my meditation into three parts: mental, astral, and physical.

The first 10 minutes I call "mental" because these minutes remove my daily surface thoughts, but don't really trigger any visions, dream scenes, etc.

The next 20 minutes I call "astral" because these minutes immerse me into dream scenes, vivid voices, etc. This is when my thoughts seem to take shape and action.

Onward from 30 minutes and I get "physical" symptoms. These involve hot and cold spells, shaking, pain in my body from keeping my back straight, energy sensations, vertigo (motion sickness) etc. (I believe that this is WAY too much energy to be healthy once I reach this point)

Now, I've been meditating for 30 minutes day and night for about a month now, and I keep feeling sick after I finish my meditations. Grounding doesn't seem to help. It's more like there's actual damage being inflicted that I need to let rest and heal over time. I've also been doing the LIRP and LBRP (morning and night respectively) for about a week now, and I can feel mild energy sensations when I perform the rituals.

I've been using Initiation Into Hermetics to help me make sense of my own personal paradigm. I don't generally do anything in magick unless I know EXACTLY what I'm doing and why. That's why I'm here for insight on this matter.

I know that Bardon's book explicitly states to move on to Step Two after a month, and it has occurred to me that failure to do so could potentially be dangerous. See, I seem to automatically channel energy now when I meditate, and I can't go for more than about 5 minutes at a time without feeling sick or at the very least disoriented (now that I've been experiencing damage for a bit). IIH's Step Two is about elemental equilibrium, so I'm thinking that failure to move onto elemental equilibrium while attempting to meditate for long time periods will result in you eventually opening more energy channels than you can handle.

I read a IIH commentary and it said to do 30 minutes meditation to speed up development, but I feel like this advice might be a bit dangerous. I think Bardon would have known that 10 minutes of vacancy was a low goal, and I bet he set it low on purpose; because Step Two's sensory control exercises are necessary in order to keep control of yourself during meditation when sensory channels open to the subtle bodies (astral and mental bodies).

So, I currently believe that if I am seeing and hearing things during meditation, I shouldn't meditate any longer than I can visualise an object, or mentally produce sound. If I can't control / banish my senses for the full time of a meditation, then I think it's reasonable to come to the conclusion that burn out is inevitable because I'm damaging myself a little every time I meditate.

Of final note, lately I've been experiencing visions almost the moment I start meditating, so my "mental" and "astral" sections of meditation are seemingly blended now to some degree. What does this mean? Do I now have a fairly solid connection to my mental body?

Any insight into the above matters would be appreciated. I'm trying to figure out what my meditation and sensory exercises are actually doing me, so I can avoid damaging myself.

[Daud]

When you feel sick, imagine your internal organs, and whole body aside from your skin is filled with light. Hold this and it should help. Also try not to force it too much, relaxing into meditation is always best.

[Rin]

I know that Bardon's book explicitly states to move on to Step Two after a month,

I haven't read Bardon in a while, but I'm almost certain this isn't the case. From memory, he gives a month as an estimated time frame, but is firm that the practitioner should never move onto the next step until they have mastered the current one. in reality, I don't know anyone who claims that 1 month is a reasonable time frame - most people seem to come closer to 6 - 12 months for Step 1.

As for your symptoms, they could be caused by all sorts of things. Uncomfortable sensations and emotions are a common side effect of beginning meditation, and one of the flaws of Bardon's work is that he doesn't give a whole lot of perspective on this phenomena, let alone provide practical methodology for dealing with it. This is one of the reasons that, over the passage of time, I've come to view IIH as less of an exact training regime and more of a general curriculum. I feel that each step could easily be expanded itself into an entire book the size of IIH, many of the steps into multiple such books.

I would suggest that you tread carefully if you're experiencing the degree of discomfort you describe from meditating. Ideally you should seek out a teacher who understands the initial cleansing and balancing process that takes place during heavy meditation. Even if you just start attending classes at a local meditation center or buddhist temple, you'll likely start having far better success with your practice.

More specifically, I'd suggest looking into mindfulness practices to help you deal with the physical and emotional discomfort and body based energy work (basic qi gong, yoga or something similar) to help you get your body into better shape for seated meditation and establish a better balance between the physical/energetic/mental bodies which should help you get a better feel for what's going on underneath the surface to cause your problems. Again, these are things you should learn from a teacher who understands what you're experiencing and can hopefully guide you through the process.

Good luck

[Desecrated]

I really recommend reading about zen buddhism, because it talks about this, and I can't remember it all to summarize it properly.

HOWEVER, from a a magical perspective, do some simple banishing before you start meditating, put up a circle and meditate inside of it. Make sure that you reject anything negative before and after you start meditating.

[blindwake]

When you feel sick, imagine your internal organs, and whole body aside from your skin is filled with light. Hold this and it should help. Also try not to force it too much, relaxing into meditation is always best.

I started doing something like this intuitively. I sit down, draw energy to my heart (very lightly so as not to accumulate dnlangerousy) and then have my heart chakra pump the energy throughout my entire body. I'm not quite sure what I'm doing because I can barely feel energy (at low density). Thanks for the tip.

[blindwake]

I haven't read Bardon in a while, but I'm almost certain this isn't the case. From memory, he gives a month as an estimated time frame, but is firm that the practitioner should never move onto the next step until they have mastered the current one. in reality, I don't know anyone who claims that 1 month is a reasonable time frame - most people seem to come closer to 6 - 12 months for Step 1.

Yes, but the commentary I was reading told me to meditate for 30 minutes at a time instead of 10 minutes like Bardon suggests.

Bardon says to achieve a very low goal and then move onto step two (while continuing step on forever). I think he's just trying to get the neophyte to a point where they can at least sit down for 10 minutes to do step two's exercises.

In my minimal experience, attempting to do heavy meditation without the elemental balancing that occurs in step two, can result in psychosis and a lot of damage.

Though the 6 - 12 month mark seems about right for taking step one and two at the same time. You only actually start drawing and compressing energy in step three, so i think step one should be done alone for about a month, and then step two done with it for the year of training.

[blindwake]

I really recommend reading about zen buddhism, because it talks about this, and I can't remember it all to summarize it properly.

HOWEVER, from a a magical perspective, do some simple banishing before you start meditating, put up a circle and meditate inside of it. Make sure that you reject anything negative before and after you start meditating.

I'll have to look into the subject. Also, I usually do the LBRP before meditation, but haven't lately because I sort of practice secretively and the ritual is rather loud when I sing the words with the right vibration. I'm singing tenor notes for ATAH before I ever get head vibration, and high notes go pretty far through walls.

I stopped using a circle a while ago, if you think it will help, I'll start using one again. Maybe I can also make a few sigils to charge for my benefit.

[Desecrated]

I really recommend reading about zen buddhism, because it talks about this, and I can't remember it all to summarize it properly.

HOWEVER, from a a magical perspective, do some simple banishing before you start meditating, put up a circle and meditate inside of it. Make sure that you reject anything negative before and after you start meditating.

I'll have to look into the subject. Also, I usually do the LBRP before meditation, but haven't lately because I sort of practice secretively and the ritual is rather loud when I sing the words with the right vibration. I'm singing tenor notes for ATAH before I ever get head vibration, and high notes go pretty far through walls.

I stopped using a circle a while ago, if you think it will help, I'll start using one again. Maybe I can also make a few sigils to charge for my benefit.

Sing it in your head. The important part is that you feel safe.

I don't know about sigils, but yes you can use some sort of talismans/amulets to protect you. Most religions have some sort of prayer beads when they meditate.

[Desecrated]

In my minimal experience, attempting to do heavy meditation without the elemental balancing that occurs in step two, can result in psychosis and a lot of damage.

Meditation is like drugs, if you have a healthy mind, meditation won't cause too much problems. But if you have aa latency for psychosis then, yes: Poking around in your own head for that long can trigger some really bad emotions and mental states.

A lot of people spend a lot of time/money to avoid having to deal with their own feelings/thoughts, so it is of no surprise in our society that people experience these very strong attacks doing their first months.
We are simply not used to facing ourself.
And just like drugs, You can do too much of it, too soon. There is nothing wrong with taking a couple of days of if it gets to intense. I also recommend a healthy dosage of ice cream and bad movies to balance out.

[Rin]

Yes, but the commentary I was reading told me to meditate for 30 minutes at a time instead of 10 minutes like Bardon suggests.

Bardon says to achieve a very low goal and then move onto step two (while continuing step on forever). I think he's just trying to get the neophyte to a point where they can at least sit down for 10 minutes to do step two's exercises.

In my minimal experience, attempting to do heavy meditation without the elemental balancing that occurs in step two, can result in psychosis and a lot of damage.

Though the 6 - 12 month mark seems about right for taking step one and two at the same time. You only actually start drawing and compressing energy in step three, so i think step one should be done alone for about a month, and then step two done with it for the year of training.

Commentaries are just that, commentaries. You should extract from them what you find useful and discard what you don't.

The length of your meditation sessions should be determined by what is safest and most effective (in that order) for you, nothing else.

[LoneWolf]

Hey blindwake,

I think that your body and ego haven't yet catched up with your spiritual growth. That's why you get nausea/sick after your astral visions. I interpret it as your physical parts holding on tight unto what they consider reality and therefor force you to "stay" here.

The three spheres of human life, physical, mental, spiritual, need to grow together. Your body and ego might still be catching up with such growth. You might want to take it easy. Also, ground yourself properly and maybe even eat some meat after feeling sick due to spiritual experiences.

If I were you, however, I would keep going so that your flesh knows who is the Master here. Of course, do that at your own risk and judgement.

I remember a story of an anthropologist who met with a Southamerican Shaman. After sharing some strong experiences for the first time, and also even after talking in a way that challenged the protagonist's core beliefs and rational constructions, he got sick and nauseous. He remedied it with long baths. I believe with the little I know from the situation that this is what is happening to you. If you feel curious about the story it is well written by such anthropologist in "The active side of infinity - Carlos Castaneda".

Finally, I think that taking your time with each step can't do but good.

Wish you well.

[blindwake]

Hey blindwake,

I think that your body and ego haven't yet catched up with your spiritual growth. That's why you get nausea/sick after your astral visions. I interpret it as your physical parts holding on tight unto what they consider reality and therefor force you to "stay" here.

That would make sense actually. Ever since I started my workings, I would get a bit dizzy every time I made the slightest success (slightly move a psi wheel, etc.) or even for a moment thought that I had been successful (see air move a psi wheel... [bummed] ).

In fact, the only time I've had any real pay off for my practices was a few months before I even started training. I had a friend at my place and we dabbled in psionics a bit. I was able to make a physically tangible "static ball" with about ten minutes of focus. Since then, I haven't been able to make even the slightest effect on reality. I think you're right about my beliefs being an issue (that is the ego right?).

Physically I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Like, I've been feeling muscle spasms, hot spots, etc. which I think might be related to energy path ways opening, but I'm not really sure how to approach physical development. I've been doing Bardon's Step One food exercises, etc., but that doesn't seem to do much for me. I'm not really sure how to continue except by actively circulating energy through body (like Robert Bruce's NEW system). But I'm not sure that that's safe because I'm still working on my soul mirrors (which is having very interesting effects on my emotions/intellect).

Physically I'm kind of frail (but I'm not exactly a big guy either). I've noticed that I've been gaining weight and a bit of resistance to temperature extremes. Kind of makes me wonder what exactly my energy is doing to my body. I do martial arts, so hopefully that can give me a bit of aid in my physical development.

Of note, I've also been getting much better memory lately. Old thoughts seem to be reconnecting so I can access them. I'm not sure exactly what my subconscious is doing to me. That's why I'm here to stop myself from doing damage.

Like, for example, just today, I tried lying down and doing a visualization exercise (in my normal sleep position), and I noticed that by focusing into my sleep state, I could actually see a page of some sort of book, and I could barely feel my thoughts studying the page. I have terrible dream recall, but it's been getting better. Kind of makes me wonder what I do without realizing it. Subconscious magick... shiver [crazy] Seems like I'm skrying symbols while I dream.

Anyway, thanks for the tips.

Also, I find cold showers help me ground, do you think that that's related? I have mild insomnia, so I always feel energized, but cold showers and low frequency bassy music (death metal) seems to help me.

[blindwake]

I really recommend reading about zen buddhism, because it talks about this, and I can't remember it all to summarize it properly.

HOWEVER, from a a magical perspective, do some simple banishing before you start meditating, put up a circle and meditate inside of it. Make sure that you reject anything negative before and after you start meditating.

I'll have to look into the subject. Also, I usually do the LBRP before meditation, but haven't lately because I sort of practice secretively and the ritual is rather loud when I sing the words with the right vibration. I'm singing tenor notes for ATAH before I ever get head vibration, and high notes go pretty far through walls.

I stopped using a circle a while ago, if you think it will help, I'll start using one again. Maybe I can also make a few sigils to charge for my benefit.

Sing it in your head. The important part is that you feel safe.

I don't know about sigils, but yes you can use some sort of talismans/amulets to protect you. Most religions have some sort of prayer beads when they meditate.

Does the ritual itself actually do anything then? I've read that covens often have egregores to work as energy pools for neophytes, but I imagine that if the LBRP had any sort of charge at some point, it probably doesn't anymore because of how widely used it is.

I was under the impression that the vibration was actually necessary. I notice that vibrating a part of my body seems to relax it. Though if that's the only real goal, I see no reason why taking a hot shower and mentally circulating golden light throughout the body wouldn't be just as effective.

[blindwake]

Yes, but the commentary I was reading told me to meditate for 30 minutes at a time instead of 10 minutes like Bardon suggests.

Bardon says to achieve a very low goal and then move onto step two (while continuing step on forever). I think he's just trying to get the neophyte to a point where they can at least sit down for 10 minutes to do step two's exercises.

In my minimal experience, attempting to do heavy meditation without the elemental balancing that occurs in step two, can result in psychosis and a lot of damage.

Though the 6 - 12 month mark seems about right for taking step one and two at the same time. You only actually start drawing and compressing energy in step three, so i think step one should be done alone for about a month, and then step two done with it for the year of training.

Commentaries are just that, commentaries. You should extract from them what you find useful and discard what you don't.

The length of your meditation sessions should be determined by what is safest and most effective (in that order) for you, nothing else.

I agree, and I generally extract what I need and trash the rest when reading for new technique. However, I was under the impression that meditation was supposed to act as a sort of banishing ritual. I wasn't expecting it to overload me with energy. I didn't expect it to channel anything at all, so I was a bit confused for a while because I thought meditation was "safe".

Thanks for the advice though.

[Desecrated]

Does the ritual itself actually do anything then? I've read that covens often have egregores to work as energy pools for neophytes, but I imagine that if the LBRP had any sort of charge at some point, it probably doesn't anymore because of how widely used it is.

The charge point is in your brain.

I was under the impression that the vibration was actually necessary. I notice that vibrating a part of my body seems to relax it. Though if that's the only real goal, I see no reason why taking a hot shower and mentally circulating golden light throughout the body wouldn't be just as effective.

If you were to swallow a vibrator it would vibrate inside of you. Your neighbors wouldn't hear it, but I'm pretty sure it would be effecting you.

[blindwake]

Desecrated,

Okay. That makes sense. Sort of. I guess I'm going to spend the next month or so studying biology [thumbup]

[CCoburn]

My Theory would be that when you Vibrate internally. It is only the Microcosm(Consciousness)
that is primarily being affected. However, the internally manifested frequencies may project(seep)
tenuously into the Macrocosm as subtle frequencies. Or the internal frequencies affecting at a
Quantum level through some sort of Entanglement or similar(GodField)could affect far off things
Instantaneously without propagation.

When you Vibrate externally. You are directly disrupting the Macrocosm with percussive waves
Which has an immediate and profound effect. In close proximity.

I like to Vibrate with Power, so the latter is my preference. And as far as neighbors. My music
drowns me out quite a bit, and beyond that I don't worry. I know the music isn't an option for
everyone though, nor a preference.

Cheers

[blindwake]

Spida,

I like your line of thinking where everything is built of frequencies. I find science helps a lot to explain much of magick.

I find that the more I progress, the more frequencies start to resonate in me (a lot like harmonics actually). It's like our mostly tangible frequencies are mostly "out of pitch" with non tangible frequencies, but by being out of pitch long enough, we unknowingly draw them to our pitch (by the irrational opposites attract law) and get a half in pitch note that slowly gets more in pitch over time, the more waves condense to become lower. So, by vibrating the physical body, maybe "astral energy" is pulled down to "fill in the gaps" as matter is just barely expanded from the vibrations.

Sometimes I can feel the root of my spine vibrate even when I talk at a normal pitch and volume, after I finish a ritual.

I agree that vibrating with power is preferable, but I think it's necessary to vibrate mentally (with thought), astrally (with action), AND physically in order to get a full "link" however weak, from the quantum level to the physical level. Bardon explains something along the lines of this in his book on Qaballah. I'm still trying to figure out what "full spectrum" vibration means, but I seem to be headed in a "right" direction.

As for music, I didn't think about that. Ambient noise to act as camouflage is a pretty solid idea.

[CCoburn]

Yeah, it really is. You have colors that are part of your Rituals. These work off propagation of light waves
that are frequencies in the terahertz range. Your consciousness incorporates different brainwave frequencies
that is altered with things like meditation, or shamanic drugs. The altering of brainwave frequencies allows
them to either fit or resonate with alternate realities, or other dimensions. Even fragrance is supposedly tied
to frequency, although i haven't really looked into this.

Tesla was big on frequency, energy, and vibration. And Einstein referred to entanglement as Spooky action
at a distance, emphasis on the word "spooky" which brings to mind the transcending of reason.

So yeah, and with the higher frequencies it's obviously impossible to match light frequencies with audio
frequencies but you can achieve resonant frequencies. it's the same idea as singing low when someone
else is singing high, in harmony of course. or harmonizing with a musical instrument.

And with the music as camo, yeah, and it's also cool to resonate(harmonize) your vibrations with that
as well.

As far as the incorporating of science. It's like Yesod, foundation. It's a good foundation too. but far from
complete in itself. Perhaps you could call this evolving paradigm eclectic, and syncretic. Sounds good to me.

Regards

[Rin]

Yes, but the commentary I was reading told me to meditate for 30 minutes at a time instead of 10 minutes like Bardon suggests.

Bardon says to achieve a very low goal and then move onto step two (while continuing step on forever). I think he's just trying to get the neophyte to a point where they can at least sit down for 10 minutes to do step two's exercises.

In my minimal experience, attempting to do heavy meditation without the elemental balancing that occurs in step two, can result in psychosis and a lot of damage.

Though the 6 - 12 month mark seems about right for taking step one and two at the same time. You only actually start drawing and compressing energy in step three, so i think step one should be done alone for about a month, and then step two done with it for the year of training.

Commentaries are just that, commentaries. You should extract from them what you find useful and discard what you don't.

The length of your meditation sessions should be determined by what is safest and most effective (in that order) for you, nothing else.

I agree, and I generally extract what I need and trash the rest when reading for new technique. However, I was under the impression that meditation was supposed to act as a sort of banishing ritual. I wasn't expecting it to overload me with energy. I didn't expect it to channel anything at all, so I was a bit confused for a while because I thought meditation was "safe".

Thanks for the advice though.

I had it explained to me roughly (very roughly, but it was a while ago) like this - think about all of the energy which is used to fuel your churning thoughts and the function of your senses. This energy doesn't just disappear when your thoughts start churning less, or your sensory input is decreased. Instead it builds up and circulates - which can cause problems if you're focusing on the wrong thing (energy following intention, after all), or if you have blockages and stagnation which are then worn away at by the increase in, for lack of a better word, energetic pressure.

There's also a "tuning in" process - a lot of the time people don't realize how much strain and tension has built up in their system over the years. Eventually this strain translates down to an energetic, and possibly physical, level. When you work on quieting the conscious mind, you often start to become aware of all the metaphysical gunk which has built up, which can be uncomfortable in itself and lead to a stressful reaction if you don't know how to process it properly. And the increasing "energetic pressure" from meditation can often cause some of it to break loose and float to the surface - like turning on the water in a rusty set of pipes and having all the mold and dirt which has built up suddenly torn loose and pumped through the system.

To carry the metaphor further, you can flush this mold and dirt out, but if the pressure is too high, you can loosen enough at once that it can cause blockages at other areas, or at the least foul the water substantially for a period if time.

There are ways to work through this to try and mitigate the worst of it - creating enough pressure to loosen the gunk a bit at a time instead of causing huge chunks to suddenly circulate all at once, and learning how to best process it when it arises, but these are things that Bardon doesn't touch on in great detail.

[blindwake]

Everything makes a lot of sense to me. I should be able to push onward in my development fairly safely now. Thank you all for responding.