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Is it even worth pursuing the occult unless you are one of the elites. What's the point in reading english translations of greek and latin works, not to mention hebrew and arabic. All we do is just regurgitate other peoples opinion but have no real understanding ourself.
What do you do if you're dumb and lazy? Give up and become an armchair occultist? Write a book? Go and lay down in a ditch and wait for death?

Know thyself, change thyself. Afterwards do what thou wilt.

If I were to feel real stuck I would ingest some magical herb or mushroom.

Most prodigies aren't that smart at all. They're just really good at finding weak points in systems (like tests, life, etc).

If you feel stupid ever, try making yourself a little more stupid so that you can see "the bigger picture" from a childlike perspective. Learn as many "stupid" things as possible, then cross reference everything so that you are left with the least stupid of the stupid information. Then do this repeatedly until you end up with a few basic truths (I call them "keys") and use them to slowly unlock the information you thought was out of reach before.

Basically, embrace stupidity so you never embrace any one thing as truth. Truth is only contextually valid, and the context (reality) changes all the time, so you're better off never getting attached to any one "truth".

Also, you shouldn't lie down in a ditch to die because that would be slow and painful. Death is always painful. I'm a nihilist of sorts. It takes less effort to live than die, so I live.

As for meaning, there is no objective meaning. There is no "why". Why is my TV black? Why shouldn't my TV be black, is a better question. It is the question that drives people, the "what if?". The experience of life is enough by itself. "Why" is unnecessary.

Essentially, if you read enough regurgitated crap, you start to see through the trash. You literally skry between the lines of text. Sort of. I'm terrible at explaining my thoughts. Hopefully this all makes sense.

What's the point of having a strong will if you are too stupid to make something out of it?
Let's say I want to become a french chef. But I'm too stupid to learn french. Then I'm just wasting my time. And would be better of working at mcdonalds.

@Des then you could work on magick to be a better mcdonalds worker, I suppose.

The way I see it, we've got internet access, we're already better off than most of the other intelligent life on the planet because we have access to so much information. And even then, there are dirt-poor people in the third world practicing all kinds of interesting traditional magick.

If you put it in perspective, we ARE elite. I have plenty of spare time to devote to occult practice. And by comparison, we're all smarter than a lot of people. We can only practice from where we stand currently, the journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step, after all.

By even being human I think it's our responsibility to investigate the mysteries of existence. If you have a desire to do that, you already have a big advantage.

Desecrated wrote:What's the point of having a strong will if you are too stupid to make something out of it?
Let's say I want to become a french chef. But I'm too stupid to learn french. Then I'm just wasting my time. And would be better of working at mcdonalds.

I strongly believe that everybody is born with some special talents or gifts for the world. Key is to distinguish between your real will and what your ego wants in order to not feel bad about something. Thus, know thyself. Moreover I trust completely in that a correspondence exists between my real will and my aptitudes,facilities and oportunities that the universe might bring. I believe we didn't come here to strongly will (not ego will) things we have not the means of accomplishing, but to follow the pathway of our will. And such highway is not on construction nor incomplete. ALL is in the All.

Also appears to me as if you are experiencing a pesimistic state of being, is it so my kind friend?

Limitation is but an idea waiting to be thrown in the trash by your clean hands. Sometimes I really love to watch paraolimpics and disabled people competing at sports, specially swimmers with only an arm and no legs.

Wish you well.

Desecrated wrote:What's the point of having a strong will if you are too stupid to make something out of it?
Let's say I want to become a french chef. But I'm too stupid to learn french. Then I'm just wasting my time. And would be better of working at mcdonalds.

Learn a few new subjects in English, train your brain, and then learn French. The brain is like a muscle, so work your way up to your goal.

I find that if I do a study routine of like 10min meditation, 50min study, back and forth throughout my study, I can learn a lot faster than I normally could.

Unless you are disabled mentally, you should be able to obtain any knowledge if you put the work in to obtain it. Thinking you're stupid is an excuse to not learn.

As a last ditch effort, in case you really do struggle with a subject, use magick to summon a teacher (through a synchronicity).

LoneWolf wrote:
I strongly believe that everybody is born with some special talents or gifts for the world.

I strongly believe that 99% of people are just a waste of resources. Most of them are born because their parents are dumb enough to have children.

blindwake wrote:
Learn a few new subjects in English, train your brain, and then learn French. The brain is like a muscle, so work your way up to your goal.

I honestly don't think everybody has that in them. There is a large mass of people that are just to stupid to learn a new language. Not to mention learning 4-5 languages that you might need to master the occult.

Desecrated wrote:

blindwake wrote:
Learn a few new subjects in English, train your brain, and then learn French. The brain is like a muscle, so work your way up to your goal.

I honestly don't think everybody has that in them. There is a large mass of people that are just to stupid to learn a new language. Not to mention learning 4-5 languages that you might need to master the occult.

Maybe not, but the moment you say "I can't" is the moment you become one of those weak minds. Take a leap of faith in yourself and you'd be surprised as to what you can do.

Also, learning appears to be a curve. The first language is sort of there by default, the second is the hardest, the third is easier, fourth is even easier still, etc. One you "hook in" to a learning path, it gets a lot easier as you get a stable footing.

One you know three languages from three different major areas of the world, you can sort cross reference sounds and patterns to easily learn even more languages.

I'm lucky because I took a french immersion program at a young age so my brain might be wired differently, but I don't think it's impossible to learn at an older age.

blindwake wrote:
Maybe not, but the moment you say "I can't" is the moment you become one of those weak minds. Take a leap of faith in yourself and you'd be surprised as to what you can do.

Also, learning appears to be a curve. The first language is sort of there by default, the second is the hardest, the third is easier, fourth is even easier still, etc. One you "hook in" to a learning path, it gets a lot easier as you get a stable footing.

One you know three languages from three different major areas of the world, you can sort cross reference sounds and patterns to easily learn even more languages.

I'm lucky because I took a french immersion program at a young age so my brain might be wired differently, but I don't think it's impossible to learn at an older age.

Hey. Some people that comes to this forum don't even know how to speak one language.

But it brings up an interesting question. What if you are weak-minded. What if, you're just to weak to study the occult.
Do you still continue, even though you know you won't be able to achive something?

Desecrated wrote:

blindwake wrote:
Maybe not, but the moment you say "I can't" is the moment you become one of those weak minds. Take a leap of faith in yourself and you'd be surprised as to what you can do.

Also, learning appears to be a curve. The first language is sort of there by default, the second is the hardest, the third is easier, fourth is even easier still, etc. One you "hook in" to a learning path, it gets a lot easier as you get a stable footing.

One you know three languages from three different major areas of the world, you can sort cross reference sounds and patterns to easily learn even more languages.

I'm lucky because I took a french immersion program at a young age so my brain might be wired differently, but I don't think it's impossible to learn at an older age.

Hey. Some people that comes to this forum don't even know how to speak one language.

But it brings up an interesting question. What if you are weak-minded. What if, you're just to weak to study the occult.
Do you still continue, even though you know you won't be able to achive something?

I think that you do continue. Pick any one occult book and read it over and over again. I find I start to absorb knowledge almost like osmosis if I reread (skry) the same texts enough. It's a lot like getting emotion while looking at a painting. I like applying this technique to tarot cards. I find that I get knowledge later during my dreams.

Here's a question: what do you do if you don't study the occult? Do you reintegrate into mainstream society's herd mentality and lose yourself?

And another: how do you tell if you are learning or progressing in your occult studies? What if your subconscious self absorbs knowledge even when you think you're stupid?

Couldn't you then use intuition to advance?
Wouldn't that mean that your conscious intelligence is unimportant except as a way for your subsonscious to express itself? Maybe you can learn without realizing it. Kind of makes me think of how the brain supposedly creates wonderful dream imagery.

blindwake wrote:
Here's a question: what do you do if you don't study the occult? Do you reintegrate into mainstream society's herd mentality and lose yourself?

Well, that's what I want to know too.

And another: how do you tell if you are learning or progressing in your occult studies? What if your subconscious self absorbs knowledge even when you think you're stupid?

If you learn new things you are learning. If you get results you are progressing.
The problem with storing thing in your subconsciousness is that you might not be conscious of it.

Couldn't you then use intuition to advance?
Wouldn't that mean that your conscious intelligence is unimportant except as a way for your subsonscious to express itself? Maybe you can learn without realizing it. Kind of makes me think of how the brain supposedly creates wonderful dream imagery.

I think intuition is even rarer than intelligence.

But intuition isn't the answer to everything. You can't "feel" your way to glassblowing or metallurgy. If you want to create a magic mirror or a talisman the way it is described in the ancient texts you actually need a healthy dosage of knowledge.

The same with the tarot. You can use intuition, you can absolutely work with it without the proper knowledge. But it really helps if you know Aristotle. If you don't know the difference between Greek virtues and christian virtues: Justice and Temperance are going to be a bit confusing. Are both about balance? Which one is Wisdom, the hermit or the hanged man?

And so on. I'm not saying that you can't achieve something in life without knowledge, But in the occult and especially if you want to really study it the way it was thought in the old days, you really need to know what the old master knew.
And not everyone has what it takes to become a master.

Spida wrote:

All you can do really, if you are so inclined. Is be the best you can be.

What if that isn't good enough?

Desecrated wrote:

blindwake wrote:
Here's a question: what do you do if you don't study the occult? Do you reintegrate into mainstream society's herd mentality and lose yourself?

Well, that's what I want to know too.

And another: how do you tell if you are learning or progressing in your occult studies? What if your subconscious self absorbs knowledge even when you think you're stupid?

If you learn new things you are learning. If you get results you are progressing.
The problem with storing thing in your subconsciousness is that you might not be conscious of it.

Couldn't you then use intuition to advance?
Wouldn't that mean that your conscious intelligence is unimportant except as a way for your subsonscious to express itself? Maybe you can learn without realizing it. Kind of makes me think of how the brain supposedly creates wonderful dream imagery.

I think intuition is even rarer than intelligence.

But intuition isn't the answer to everything. You can't "feel" your way to glassblowing or metallurgy. If you want to create a magic mirror or a talisman the way it is described in the ancient texts you actually need a healthy dosage of knowledge.

The same with the tarot. You can use intuition, you can absolutely work with it without the proper knowledge. But it really helps if you know Aristotle. If you don't know the difference between Greek virtues and christian virtues: Justice and Temperance are going to be a bit confusing. Are both about balance? Which one is Wisdom, the hermit or the hanged man?

And so on. I'm not saying that you can't achieve something in life without knowledge, But in the occult and especially if you want to really study it the way it was thought in the old days, you really need to know what the old master knew.
And not everyone has what it takes to become a master.

Sure, you might not know what the master knew, and so you can't become a master like any other master, but you can be yourself, and you can gain mastery in your own way. You can see the paths left behind by elders, and even if you don't get a perfectly clear picture of what to do, you can get pretty close.

In my studies, I don't even bother trying to learn a full "path" of some culture. I take a skim at all the different "paths" in an effort to see what they have in common; I "purify" the knowledge until it's extremely simple.

I might not know what each Tarot card meant to someone else, but I can draw a tree of life and see how each path relates to the others, and can infer meaning like this, and decide what it means for me. It's a lot like trying to solve a mental puzzle where 90% of the pieces are black, but you can still fit the pieces together based on shape.

Intuition isn't meant to teach metallurgy, but it helps you understand a book on metallurgy that someone else might deem "too cryptic".

Basically, learn through pattern finding, not definitions. Definitions are always subjective, but anyone can look at a pattern and understand if they watch long enough.

Then once you have the patterns, you can trial and error your way through practice and actually get somewhere.

Desecrated wrote:What's the point of having a strong will if you are too stupid to make something out of it?
Let's say I want to become a french chef. But I'm too stupid to learn french. Then I'm just wasting my time. And would be better of working at mcdonalds.

No one is ''too stupid'' to learn a language. It just takes time and effort. If you want to become a french chef than moving to France or Canada for a while might be a good idea, since you'd be completely immersed in it. But no one said that learning something had to be easy. You ofttimes need a great deal of motivation and perseverance to achieve what you want in life.

TruthSeeker_ wrote:

Desecrated wrote:What's the point of having a strong will if you are too stupid to make something out of it?
Let's say I want to become a french chef. But I'm too stupid to learn french. Then I'm just wasting my time. And would be better of working at mcdonalds.

No one is ''too stupid'' to learn a language. It just takes time and effort. If you want to become a french chef than moving to France or Canada for a while might be a good idea, since you'd be completely immersed in it. But no one said that learning something had to be easy. You ofttimes need a great deal of motivation and perseverance to achieve what you want in life.

What if you're running out of time. What if you get cancer and you'll die in 3 years. Do you still pursue an impossible goal, or give up and live out the rest of your days doing..... Something.

blindwake wrote: Sure, you might not know what the master knew, and so you can't become a master like any other master, but you can be yourself, and you can gain mastery in your own way. You can see the paths left behind by elders, and even if you don't get a perfectly clear picture of what to do, you can get pretty close.

In my studies, I don't even bother trying to learn a full "path" of some culture. I take a skim at all the different "paths" in an effort to see what they have in common; I "purify" the knowledge until it's extremely simple.

The thing about this view is that your not evolving yourself, you're just diminishing other peoples knowledge. So in the end, all you know are bits and pieces and nothing concrete.

Basically, learn through pattern finding, not definitions. Definitions are always subjective, but anyone can look at a pattern and understand if they watch long enough.

Then once you have the patterns, you can trial and error your way through practice and actually get somewhere.

Well there are some cases where this just don't work. You can't build a bridge by halfassing your way around it. You actually have to know exactly what you're doing. And not everyone can be a bridge-builder.

Des, I can't argue with that logic, but it was fun playing devil's advocate just to have you deconstruct me a bit.

Going back on topic, if there are in fact people too stupid to excel in the occult science, it'd be in our best interests to help them. Otherwise there will always be large group of skeptics holding us down.

blindwake wrote:Des, I can't argue with that logic, but it was fun playing devil's advocate just to have you deconstruct me a bit.

Going back on topic, if there are in fact people too stupid to excel in the occult science, it'd be in our best interests to help them. Otherwise there will always be large group of skeptics holding us down.

So if someone is to stupid for the occult, they can always become a skeptic?

Desecrated wrote:

blindwake wrote:Des, I can't argue with that logic, but it was fun playing devil's advocate just to have you deconstruct me a bit.

Going back on topic, if there are in fact people too stupid to excel in the occult science, it'd be in our best interests to help them. Otherwise there will always be large group of skeptics holding us down.

So if someone is to stupid for the occult, they can always become a skeptic?

If someone is stupid, they pretty much have to be a skeptic because they won't have the skills to study the occult and see tangible results. You can only study so long in any subject, without any return on your effort, before you quit. Or at least that's what I see a lot in people.

If you're stupid, you probably can't see results and so will become a skeptic. And if you're extra stupid, you'll blindly believe in magick and drive yourself insane because you aren't studying anything but your own delusions.

If you're extra extra stupid, you'd probably say magick isn't real at all, without even trying it. But then maybe you're not stupid, but only ignorant.

But I think ignorance is just the worst level of stupidity. If you can find a lower level of stupidity, I'd love to know it.