Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

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palindrom
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by palindrom »

i have been in another forum where it was quite usual that discussions were closed temporarily to be cleaned up from insults.

it's not how i like things to be.

i'm a little student of esoteric, nowhere near to understanding anything really, but this still leaves me to be a person which deserves to be treated respectfully.
everybody should be treated respectfully, always. there is always a reason why a person behaves stupidly, and i just don't think that putting such a person down helps in any way.

no matter how stupid or querulous a question, a true master/mistress for me is someone who always is polite and patient. she doesn't have to give out the information she's asked for, but she is just able to stay polite and patient with everybody in any situation.

i'd love to be able to truly learn this one thing in this life, even if i stay a mediocre magician or whatever...

(and do i have to mention that i failed spectacularly in my noble quest time and again so far?)

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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by the_spiral »

Nahemah wrote:@the_spiral:
Or perhaps it's time to help constructively and encourage open and honest dialogue from those who usually don't chime in?
You're right, and I do notice and appreciate the enormous effort that you, CG and all the other members have put in to make this a great forum. I also understand cyberdemon's frustration and I think for newer members there's always a cost-benefit analysis that happens where we have to decide whether the quality of discussions outweighs the potential for conflict (and yeah, there are much bitchier online communities than this one!) It may be easier for older members with more stake in the community to ride out the ups and downs, and I can't really blame them for getting snippy when they see people repeating the same mistakes over and over. But we humans are a risk-taking species and tend to learn by trial and error, and I think it takes considerable grace to both offer and accept criticism with humility. And that's my last cliche of the day [thumbup]
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Nahemah »

(and do i have to mention that i failed spectacularly in my noble quest time and again so far?)
So?

Failure lies not in the falling down, it lies in failing to get up and try again.

WE never stop learning and we should never stop trying.

Up and at 'em.

And, your opinion is just as valid as anyone elses. [grin]
"He lived his words, spoke his own actions and his story and the story of the world ran parallel."

Sartre speaking of Che Guevara.

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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by manofsands »

cyberdemon wrote:There are a lot of people on the forums who think it's alright to be edgy.
Examples include "no, you are not ready" when someone asks for basic ritual methods or "you're going to suffer", etc etc. Honestly, these sort of posts (and the people who write them) infuriate me. This is a place for learning, exploration, experimentation, encouraging spiritual growth via the occult, as well as a place where one should be encouraged to tackle the "paranormal" and the mysteries of the universe through common sense, science, or otherwise. This is not a place for people to act like they're doing anyone a favour by discouraging any occult practice in any way at all. Moreover, this is not the place for fearmongering - non-occultists do enough of that already. This stuff borderlines trolling, too.

Fear is one of the most silliest things you can give in to, especially if you're doing anything remotely related to the occult. How can people be so quick to say things like "there is no black/white, only gray magick" and "you need to understand what demons are" and give a lenghty explanation on how the churches demonized higher beings, and then turn around to hand out warnings and serve fear?

So, I propose a rule against discouragement of practice be applied forum-wide to stop this nonsense. That is, if you think someone will get into trouble, teach them how to avoid said trouble instead of being smug about it.
This is kind of ridiculous. This is a place where people discuss things. Besides the rules of etiquette and common courtesy, no one owes anyone anything here. One can't be required to give up information. The can't be required to be nice or to like you. They can't be required to NOT feed you a line of bullshit and lead you on your merry way. We each must choose what to take from a conversation.

Personal conflict is just that, personal. You can choose to ignore or engage conflict and you go thru posts. We each choose. The forum and its members owe each of us nothing. It is each our own responsibility for what we gain from interacting with the forum and its members.
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palindrom
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by palindrom »

Nahemah wrote:
(and do i have to mention that i failed spectacularly in my noble quest time and again so far?)
So?

Failure lies not in the falling down, it lies in failing to get up and try again.

WE never stop learning and we should never stop trying.

Up and at 'em.
perhaps.
sometimes i also like to just smile at it all.
i'm a tough fighter, but i've started to ask myself if i'd not rather just be a gardener...

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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

Okay, lets break the proposed new rule down into its component parts, and look at how it relates to the present Forum Rules and Terms & Conditions:

First, the proposed Rule 8 in full:
8. Discouragement and Discrimination of Practice is prohibited. You must not attempt to prevent anyone from learning about or practicing any occult act unless you can show valid and preferably occult-related reasons behind it. Tampering with the open environment of the OccultForum.org by presuming any member, new or otherwise, is in any way subject to inexperience, is also prohibited. Criticism of individual members' beliefs, preferences and ritual traditions must be constructive and in no way discriminatory, no matter how strongly you disagree with the topic.
Now, breaking the rule down and comparing it to present Forum Rules and Terms & Conditions.
Discouragement and Discrimination of Practice is prohibited.
Compare this to the existing Terms & Conditions, namely:

2.A. You may not post anything which is malicious, or designed to offend. Swear words and undue profanity are discouraged, and discrimination on grounds of race, gender, age, sexuality, body weight,religious beliefs, disability, or any other quality protected by UK equality laws, is forbidden and will result in an immediate ban, and deletion of your posts.

This is already prohibited by this T&C, but your proposed rule is actually more specific. Lets explore it further.
You must not attempt to prevent anyone from learning about or practicing any occult act unless you can show valid and preferably occult-related reasons behind it.
This sounds like common courtesy - simply saying 'you are wrong because I say so' doesn't help a conversation - it's always best to cite your sources, or provide a reason. This stops someone from immediately taking offense, as they see your comments as being supported by a reason, and not simply a possible insult to their occult practice.
Tampering with the open environment of the OccultForum.org by presuming any member, new or otherwise, is in any way subject to inexperience, is also prohibited.
This is also common sense - just because the forum says you're a Neophyte because you have three posts doesn't mean you know nothing about the occult. I join plenty of forums, and it irritates me no end when I get comments along the lines of 'you are new to this forum, so you know nothing'.
Criticism of individual members' beliefs, preferences and ritual traditions must be constructive and in no way discriminatory, no matter how strongly you disagree with the topic.
This pretty much sums the rule up in regards to T&C 2.A, and draws an existing T&C in with the proposed understanding of the rule as a whole. I see this rule as being designed to stop anti-social behaviour. The proposed rule will now be discussed by the forum staff, and we will make a decision on whether it should be added to the Forum Rules.

Please remember though, and this applies to ALL forum members and not just cyberdemon, you are never going to agree with everyone on this forum. Some people are just going to rub you up the wrong way - this is an issue in any community, not just this forum. If you don't agree with something, and aren't willing to explain why you don't agree with it, then please consider simply not posting. If you are concerned as to what another member is doing in regards to their magickal practice, please tell them WHY, even if you just go 'Your ideas are dangerously undeveloped, you might want to check out this webpage on the subject' you are at least providing CONSTRUCTIVE criticism - we have some incredibly intelligent people here, let's help each other out and not just stomp on someone else's ideas.

This is your forum as much as it is ours - lets all work together to make it a great place to discuss the occult. [thumbup]

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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Nahemah »

This is your forum as much as it is ours - lets all work together to make it a great place to discuss the occult. [thumbup]
This x 1000. [thumbup]
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by cyberdemon »

This pretty much sums the rule up in regards to T&C 2.A, and draws an existing T&C in with the proposed understanding of the rule as a whole. I see this rule as being designed to stop anti-social behaviour. The proposed rule will now be discussed by the forum staff, and we will make a decision on whether it should be added to the Forum Rules.
I'm glad my proposal has actually made it this far. Whether it is added or not I believe we've all learned a valuable lesson in respecting forum members just a little bit more. Considering that OFO is the first result on Google if one searches for a place to discuss the occult, we all have high standards to maintain to keep these forums welcoming towards anyone.
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Rin »

I'm quite strongly opposed to the idea, to be honest. I think we already have have rules which are more than adequate for keeping discussion civil and constructive - too many rules will kill the quality of conversation as easily as too few.

And frankly, as others have pointed out, sometimes discouragement is appropriate and necessary. People have the right to share knowledge as they will (although I feel it's better to simply not say anything if you aren't going to share a piece of knowledge, instead of telling someone about all the things you aren't going to tell them), and personally I think people have an obligation to speak up when someone who is clearly not ready for a certain practice is looking to attempt it, although ideally they will do so in a polite manner and take the time to explain why the practice is inappropriate/dangerous and how the individual can reach a stage where it is appropriate/safe (if possible).
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

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"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett

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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Frumens »

I want to make sure I understand this. If somebody comes on the forum and asks, "How do I kill my annoying neighbor with magic?" am I allowed to tell them that killing people for being annoying is wrong? Do I have to give a detailed philosophical argument that explains why I think killing people on a whim is wrong? Several people on this forum have said critical things about Joy of Satan. Every once in a while we meet an unfortunate fledgling occultist who fell into that group and got messed up in the head. If this new rule were accepted, would we still be allowed to discourage people from getting involved in Joy of Satan?
Last edited by Frumens on Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:33 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

Rin wrote:I'm quite strongly opposed to the idea, to be honest. I think we already have have rules which are more than adequate for keeping discussion civil and constructive - too many rules will kill the quality of conversation as easily as too few.
This is a good point. We really need rules that aren't too specific to cause people to have to check them every time before they post for fear of breaking them.
Rin wrote: And frankly, as others have pointed out, sometimes discouragement is appropriate and necessary. People have the right to share knowledge as they will (although I feel it's better to simply not say anything if you aren't going to share a piece of knowledge, instead of telling someone about all the things you aren't going to tell them), and personally I think people have an obligation to speak up when someone who is clearly not ready for a certain practice is looking to attempt it, although ideally they will do so in a polite manner and take the time to explain why the practice is inappropriate/dangerous and how the individual can reach a stage where it is appropriate/safe (if possible).
Ummm... Rin, you do realise you just said exactly what I wrote in the post above, about how the rule is designed to get people to explain why they are saying something is a bad idea, right? This rule isnt saying people shouldn't question other forum members practices, it's just saying that any comments should be backed up with a reason why.

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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

Frumens wrote:I want to make sure I understand this. If somebody comes on the forum and asks, "How do I kill my annoying neighbor with magic?" am I allowed to tell them that killing people for being annoying is wrong? Do I have to give a detailed philosophical argument that explains why I think killing people on a whim is wrong? Several people on this forum have said critical things about Joy of Satan. Every once in a while we meet an unfortunate fledgling occultist who fell into that group and got messed up in the head. If this new rule were accepted, would we still be allowed to discourage people from getting involved in Joy of Satan?
Yes, as long as you give a reason why.

1. 'Don't lick the toaster' - Not allowed
2. 'Don't lick the toaster because it's dirty, and you might get sick' - Allowed

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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Frumens »

How much do we have to explain?

You shouldn't do this = Banned
You shouldn't do this... because it's dangerous = Safe?
You shouldn't do this... because it's dangerous... and it's dangerous because... = Safe?

If I said, "It's wrong to kill people," is that enough of an explanation?
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Rin »

Ummm... Rin, you do realise you just said exactly what I wrote in the post above, about how the rule is designed to get people to explain why they are saying something is a bad idea, right? This rule isnt saying people shouldn't question other forum members practices, it's just saying that any comments should be backed up with a reason why.
That brings us back to the issue of whether a rule is really necessary - I haven't noticed a sudden flood of people telling people not to do something without offering an explanation. Even then, I'd consider it more a matter of politeness than something that needs a specific rule to regulate it. It also seems that adding a rule will just cause disagreements to devolve even further as people dispute not only what's being said, but whether it is or isn't within the purview of the rule.
"The path of the Sage is called
'The Path of Illumination'
he who gives himself to this path
is like a block of wood
that gives itself to the chisel-
cut by cut it is honed to perfection"

- DDJ, Verse 27

"It's still magic even if you know how it's done." - Terry Pratchett

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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by cyberdemon »

Frumens wrote:I want to make sure I understand this. If somebody comes on the forum and asks, "How do I kill my annoying neighbor with magic?" am I allowed to tell them that killing people for being annoying is wrong? Do I have to give a detailed philosophical argument that explains why I think killing people on a whim is wrong? Several people on this forum have said critical things about Joy of Satan. Every once in a while we meet an unfortunate fledgling occultist who fell into that group and got messed up in the head. If this new rule were accepted, would we still be allowed to discourage people from getting involved in Joy of Satan?
The JoS as an organization is garbage, but they did publish a fair deal of relevant and not incorrect texts. Stating this isn't discouraging practice, and it helps the person make an informed decision as to which way to go.

Of course killing people for being annoying is wrong. Thankfully killing people using magick is time consuming hard work and they would be better off using traditional methods. By the time they finish reading the sentence "For starters, relax and meditate to raise your spirits" they will have lost interest and left. If they actually listen, well, they've meditated out of their annoyed state and wouldn't be murderous anymore.
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Frumens »

Rin wrote:
Ummm... Rin, you do realise you just said exactly what I wrote in the post above, about how the rule is designed to get people to explain why they are saying something is a bad idea, right? This rule isnt saying people shouldn't question other forum members practices, it's just saying that any comments should be backed up with a reason why.
That brings us back to the issue of whether a rule is really necessary - I haven't noticed a sudden flood of people telling people not to do something without offering an explanation. Even then, I'd consider it more a matter of politeness than something that needs a specific rule to regulate it. It also seems that adding a rule will just cause disagreements to devolve even further as people dispute not only what's being said, but whether it is or isn't within the purview of the rule.
I agree. It's clear that discouraging practices is a big pet peeve of cyberdemon's. It's crystal clear in cyberdemon's very first post. It's also true that manonthepath is terse at times, and when we're limited to communication through text that terseness can be interpreted as condescension. When their personalities clashed, this thread was created with the initial proposal to ban smugness. Then the proposal evolved into "your advice must be constructive."

Sure, every post should be constructive. Sure, every post should be polite and free of condescension. But I don't think we need to get all legalistic about it less than 24 hours after cyderdemon's feelings got hurt. I'm sorry that cyberdemon's feelings were hurt and I hope it doesn't happen in the future, but this is too much too fast. The way this is going, I imagine someone else's pet peeve will be aggravated and we'll have to add another rule about what it means to be constructive. Then new posters like the_spiral come in and think, "What is wrong with these people? Can't they all just get along?"
Of course killing people for being annoying is wrong. Thankfully killing people using magick is time consuming hard work and they would be better off using traditional methods. By the time they finish reading the sentence "For starters, relax and meditate to raise your spirits" they will have lost interest and left. If they actually listen, well, they've meditated out of their annoyed state and wouldn't be murderous anymore.
An obsessive stalker could take that advice all the way and attempt to magically murder his ex-girlfriend. Do you really want to enable that? It is not uncommon for us to have mentally unstable people on this forum.
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Sypheara »

The above is the essence at what I was trying to get at.

When i mentioned manonthepath, it was simply in relation to the reason this thread was created which was the occurence which i and the above poster referenced. It wasn't a dig at anyone, just a matter of fact, and not passive aggressive on my part.

Since this is a forum about spiritual matters you are going to get all sorts of posts, patterns and behaviours in the post melting pot. Its important to realise that tone and semantics matter -especially when dealing with new people and in an environment where there is no face to face contact so intent is needed to be read from pure text. That something we should all watch me included. A discussion forum will always have debates that can turn a little personal when personality's clash, but those involved have the option of just walking away from the keyboard.

The fact we are able to come together in a thread, and actually talk about it without random bans being handed out, shows that the forum is much more mature than other forums i have had the displeasure of being associated with in the past.
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

Thank you for all your input regarding this proposed rule - we are taking it all into consideration, and your views are very much valued and respected. Thank you for providing such eloquent reasons to support your views - your desire to make sure this place works well and isn't overburdened with unnecessary moderation speaks volumes as to the quality of membership on the forum as a whole. [thumbup]

This thread is an excellent example of democracy in action. Although you don't vote for the staff that run the forum, you definitely have an important say in how it is run. [grin]

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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

We have taken all your comments into consideration and have discussed at length whether this rule is needed in order to deter anti-social behavior, and to add value to the forum as a whole. A formal decision has been made that the proposed rule isn't necessary at this time. The proposed rule will therefore not be added to the Forum Rules. This decision is final.

Thank you for your time. [thumbup]

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