Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

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cyberdemon
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Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by cyberdemon »

There are a lot of people on the forums who think it's alright to be edgy.
Examples include "no, you are not ready" when someone asks for basic ritual methods or "you're going to suffer", etc etc. Honestly, these sort of posts (and the people who write them) infuriate me. This is a place for learning, exploration, experimentation, encouraging spiritual growth via the occult, as well as a place where one should be encouraged to tackle the "paranormal" and the mysteries of the universe through common sense, science, or otherwise. This is not a place for people to act like they're doing anyone a favour by discouraging any occult practice in any way at all. Moreover, this is not the place for fearmongering - non-occultists do enough of that already. This stuff borderlines trolling, too.

Fear is one of the most silliest things you can give in to, especially if you're doing anything remotely related to the occult. How can people be so quick to say things like "there is no black/white, only gray magick" and "you need to understand what demons are" and give a lenghty explanation on how the churches demonized higher beings, and then turn around to hand out warnings and serve fear?

So, I propose a rule against discouragement of practice be applied forum-wide to stop this nonsense. That is, if you think someone will get into trouble, teach them how to avoid said trouble instead of being smug about it.

Of course, there are many dangerous things in the field of the occult. Application of such a rule will have the benefit of whoever inexperienced is asking immediately being pointed towards these dangers, how to prevent them, damage control, ritual preparation, basic occult theory for education, and so on, instead of being told "lol no you're not ready". We have a school now, we should most likely have big threads on these topics soon anyway. At least, I expect to see something on basic cleansing rituals and banishment. If not, I'll personally write up short, practical essays on the matter.

I'd like to hear the opinions of the staff on the matter.
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by EternalReturn »

Well there was a bit of conversation going about that, and that approach was named tough love. I don't see it as a discouragement but rather a trance-breaking method. Consider this:

Someone is reading about some magic rituals and considers doing so. He finds the info, does harm to himself, and as human beings usually do, he blames everyone else but him.

This is only one example, that story could unfold in many different ways. But let's consider this perspective when someone does harm to himself and his wannabe - survivalist mind kicks in.
Such people need to be awoken from their ego and emotion induced trance and see the other side. But there is no way of telling from the text how the person will behave. Is he mature, or not. Is he smart, careful, stupid or impulsive. It is hard to figure that out. There are a lot of people who would like to help, but a lot less who would warn about potential harm.

I see only benefit in this even if it seems a bit harsh or as an attempt to scare another person. If the person knows what he's doing he will be well aware of the potential harm, and see this warning post as an advice. One who doesn’t know will be fighting against that but the worm of doubt will continue to thrive. And that may lead him away from danger.

If a person wishes to continue even after the warnings, any potential harm is based on his/her's decision, and will remember to take extra precaution before doing something like that again.

So technically this what you see as discouragement can be also seen as an advice how to avoid doing too much harm to yourself.

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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Shinichi »

There's nothing smug about telling neophytes and amateurs that they are not ready for something if they are not ready for something, or saying that something is dangerous when it is. If such sentiments infuriate you, then do not read them or ask the person in question more about why they feel that way. There's usually a much better reason behind it than arrogance.

And even there, some things just shouldn't be shared over the internet, period. I know how to weave curses that could tear someone's life apart, inside and out, but no amount of asking is going to convince me to tell anyone here how to do it. Such knowledge is dangerous, and it's gotten me in more trouble than I like on more than one occasion. My experience with such matters gives me the right to declare if someone is ready or not ready to learn it, and if something is too dangerous to share even with a most trusted and respected peer.

That's just the way things are. I know martial arts techniques that can kill with frightening ease, too, but I'm not sharing those lightly either for the same reasons. When you understand dangerous things, you are responsible for what happens to that knowledge, and I don't want anyone else's self-destruction or mayhem resting on my conscience.

As for what to do if you're not ready, well. I did write and post a sort of training manual for beginners.



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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Sypheara »

I am against this idea. I do believe that man on the path in that particular instance was not only factually wrong, but also a bit abrasive.

However, we do get some rather daft people who wish to do things that amount to self harm. We have a duty to tell them if we think that a course of action is ill advised, just as you would tell someone who is thinking of committing suicide / self harm to not do so.

For example, if you posted something about necromancy that I knew was very dangerous from my own practice, such as working with the dark dead with no safety net framework / demonstrating you had worked with easier types of dead, then yes, I would discourage you from doing those workings. Unfortunately, too many new guys think that occultism is some kind of fantasy fulfillment rather than having real physical effects, and do not like it when you tell them the matter of facts.

What is better is if the 'old guard' so to speak explained it more, rather than be very dismissive which doesnt help the person asking the question nor the forum member count. This can all be handled by the current rules we have in place. Usually this occurs, but when it doesnt, that is what the mods are for.
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by cyberdemon »

EternalReturn wrote:If a person wishes to continue even after the warnings, any potential harm is based on his/her's decision, and will remember to take extra precaution before doing something like that again.
I don't suppose people come here on a whim. OFO does not have a high population and when there are new people coming in asking for advice, it's safe to assume that

a) They will be coming back.
b) They've shown enough curiousity (at the very least) to warrant a chance at learning.
Shinichi wrote:There's nothing smug about telling neophytes and amateurs that they are not ready for something if they are not ready for something, or saying that something is dangerous when it is. If such sentiments infuriate you, then do not read them or ask the person in question more about why they feel that way. There's usually a much better reason behind it than arrogance.
Alright, I cannot argue with your first statement. Still, if the only thing they are told is that they aren't ready it is a direct discouragement of practice.
Shinichi wrote:And even there, some things just shouldn't be shared over the internet, period. I know how to weave curses that could tear someone's life apart, inside and out, but no amount of asking is going to convince me to tell anyone here how to do it. Such knowledge is dangerous, and it's gotten me in more trouble than I like on more than one occasion. My experience with such matters gives me the right to declare if someone is ready or not ready to learn it, and if something is too dangerous to share even with a most trusted and respected peer.
I've cast death spells. My experience gives me the right to declare the same as you do, and I declare that all who venture into these forums not be turned away from what they seek.
Occult practice is a sort of thing that comes into play during the most desperate of times, for many. It's quite easy for anyone to be able to tell just by the way they word a post what the poster is looking for, why, and their level of experience. It's easy to put amateurs down, but nor is it difficult to at least point them in the right path.
Sypheara wrote:I am against this idea. I do believe that man on the path in that particular instance was not only factually wrong, but also a bit abrasive.
I don't want to point fingers at manonthepath. There are others with worse attitudes on these forums.
Sypheara wrote:Unfortunately, too many new guys think that occultism is some kind of fantasy fulfillment rather than having real physical effects, and do not like it when you tell them the matter of facts.
That's exactly that deterrent that'll stop people who aren't truly serious about it. Either they will be put off by the amount of work they need to put in, or venture into their own troubles regardless of whether they were warned or not. Our best case is to make sure they have as much material to learn from and know the risks, regardless of what they would do. Prohibition Of Discouragement Of Practice would make sure they get this information immediately, especially since we all agree that uninformed acts can lead to troubles. It would definitely promote a learning environment, in my opinion.
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Sypheara »

Your last point I agree. I just don't think we need an additional rule specifically for it. We have enough rules to deal with 'smarmy' posting. I agree, posts to new people should include at least some information about what they are doing is a bad idea, ie why they need to stop, learn other things first, or modify their approach and method.

Forums where rules are followed to the letter are usually very stifling places, and allows a certain amount of ego to breed among the moderators.

The above is not aimed at site staff here, just something I observed on an old game forum.
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Frumens »

I think this is a matter of common courtesy and doesn't need to become an institutionalized law of the forum. We have enough laws as it is.
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Shinichi »

cyberdemon wrote:I've cast death spells. My experience gives me the right to declare the same as you do, and I declare that all who venture into these forums not be turned away from what they seek.
Such a declaration is unreasonable in more ways than one. You would not give a loaded gun to a mentally unstable psychopath before turning him loose in a theater or to a toddler to play around with, and neither should you throw around dangerous occult knowledge to anyone who asks for it.

Discrimination is not always a bad thing. Sometimes it's a necessary responsibility, and you better think carefully about why before you persist further with this almost anarchistic idea of free occult knowledge. Some things are hidden from some people for a reason.
cyberdemon wrote:Occult practice is a sort of thing that comes into play during the most desperate of times, for many. It's quite easy for anyone to be able to tell just by the way they word a post what the poster is looking for, why, and their level of experience. It's easy to put amateurs down, but nor is it difficult to at least point them in the right path.
Desperate people do desperate things, and they are the last sort of person that I would freely give powerful things to.

I do not practice magick merely when I am desperate. No decent occultist that I know practices magick only when desperate for something. I practice in some form or another on a daily basis, and most of my practice has nothing to do with desperation or even wanting something in particular. That, too, is something for amateurs to learn - a trained magician does not merely practice magick, he is magick. This isn't a hobby or a tool, or a god you can pray to only when things go bad. It's a lifestyle choice and a part of who you are, as surely as art is for the artist.

Besides, your last point requires another interesting note. Not everyone who comes looking for something wants what their experienced peers know to be "the right path," even when you spell (or "spell," as the case may be) it out for them. They want something in particular, and no matter what you say about it they are going to chase after that something whether they are wrong or not. Sometimes, even if you want to explain something, you simply can't teach someone who will not listen.

So, again, there is nothing smug about deciding that such a person is not ready to learn something if they really aren't.



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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by cyberdemon »

Shinichi wrote: Such a declaration is unreasonable in more ways than one. You would not give a loaded gun to a mentally unstable psychopath before turning him loose in a theater or to a toddler to play around with, and neither should you throw around dangerous occult knowledge to anyone who asks for it.
No, I'd teach him all about how a gun works, its different parts and not just the trigger, what a gun is capable of and what the repercussions will be of misusing it. He can then go get the gun on his own and learn to fire it if that's his decision. This is the same as anyone being taught about magick.
Discrimination is not always a bad thing. Sometimes it's a necessary responsibility, and you better think carefully about why before you persist further with this almost anarchistic idea of free occult knowledge. Some things are hidden from some people for a reason.


Knowledge is free. Those who stand in the way aren't doing anything to help their fellow human. I'm sure free knowledge of high school alchemy also teaches you that cyanide can kill - the fact that it's known helps prevent death, actually, more often that it is used to kill.

Wouldn't you rather then teach the lifestyle and not allow someone to act out on an impulse? Your argument works against you.
Besides, your last point requires another interesting note. Not everyone who comes looking for something wants what their experienced peers know to be "the right path," even when you spell (or "spell," as the case may be) it out for them. They want something in particular, and no matter what you say about it they are going to chase after that something whether they are wrong or not. Sometimes, even if you want to explain something, you simply can't teach someone who will not listen.

So, again, there is nothing smug about deciding that such a person is not ready to learn something if they really aren't.
I don't see anything wrong with people having particular goals. Like I said, it's our job as any decent occultist to put everything on the table - warning signs included. What they decide is their responsibility, but being an elitist just because one knows powerful techniques is plain wrong.

Not to mention, I've not even seen any of those who are so quick to judge actually contribute anything remotely relevant towards an educational discussion.
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by manonthepath »

cyberdemon wrote:There are a lot of people on the forums who think it's alright to be edgy.
Examples include "no, you are not ready" when someone asks for basic ritual methods or "you're going to suffer", etc etc. Honestly, these sort of posts (and the people who write them) infuriate me. This is a place for learning, exploration, experimentation, encouraging spiritual growth via the occult, as well as a place where one should be encouraged to tackle the "paranormal" and the mysteries of the universe through common sense, science, or otherwise. This is not a place for people to act like they're doing anyone a favour by discouraging any occult practice in any way at all. Moreover, this is not the place for fearmongering - non-occultists do enough of that already. This stuff borderlines trolling, too.

Fear is one of the most silliest things you can give in to, especially if you're doing anything remotely related to the occult. How can people be so quick to say things like "there is no black/white, only gray magick" and "you need to understand what demons are" and give a lenghty explanation on how the churches demonized higher beings, and then turn around to hand out warnings and serve fear?

So, I propose a rule against discouragement of practice be applied forum-wide to stop this nonsense. That is, if you think someone will get into trouble, teach them how to avoid said trouble instead of being smug about it.

Of course, there are many dangerous things in the field of the occult. Application of such a rule will have the benefit of whoever inexperienced is asking immediately being pointed towards these dangers, how to prevent them, damage control, ritual preparation, basic occult theory for education, and so on, instead of being told "lol no you're not ready". We have a school now, we should most likely have big threads on these topics soon anyway. At least, I expect to see something on basic cleansing rituals and banishment. If not, I'll personally write up short, practical essays on the matter.

I'd like to hear the opinions of the staff on the matter.
Listen cherry! I don't care what suffering you inflict on your own ignorant ass. Go ahead and play with your toy and take what you've got coming. If I choose to try to help you, and my advice hurts your feelings or damages your fragile ego, tough shit. Grow up a bit. As far as showing me how a gun works, if only, huh?Go and cry in some corner somewhere or send me a pm if you want to talk like an adult, but don't whine in public asking for some rule to protect you from hearing what you need to hear. As far as my being smug, well I'm sorry I didn't wrap my advice, which you asked for, in a bag of sugar for you. Now wipe your tears like a good little boy and move on with your life.

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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by manonthepath »

Sypheara wrote:Your last point I agree. I just don't think we need an additional rule specifically for it. We have enough rules to deal with 'smarmy' posting. I agree, posts to new people should include at least some information about what they are doing is a bad idea, ie why they need to stop, learn other things first, or modify their approach and method.

Forums where rules are followed to the letter are usually very stifling places, and allows a certain amount of ego to breed among the moderators.

The above is not aimed at site staff here, just something I observed on an old game forum.
I did include my reason. I stated it was a portal and that he had better have the mojo to deal with whatever might come through. what more do I need to say? It is not my job to provide comprehensive instruction just because I advise a person to have caution. I said what and why in simple terms. It is up to the individual to do more research, and to heed or not at their discretion. As far as my being "abrasive," I don't see my direct style of address as being such. This isn't the house of commons you know.

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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

Please be careful that this rule isn't simply an indirect attack on another members style of posting - I've already seen one comment that directly references manonthepath. Remember that if you have a problem with another forum member you should contact a staff member and not post a thread for the sole purpose of undermining them. Please also remember that starting a thread in order to question a formal ruling is itself breaking Forum Rules. I have absolutely no problem with anyone suggesting new rules, but you need to follow the rules while doing so.

If you would like to put this rule forward for consideration, please write it exactly in the way it would appear. Please make sure it is short, and to the point. Also, if you could ensure that the new rule isn't already covered by either Forum Rules or Terms & Conditions currently in place it would be much appreciated. As has already been mentioned, we don't want the forum drowning in rules that are too overly specific if we don't need them [thumbup]

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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

If this thread continues to spiral out of control and devolve into an argument using either personal attacks or passive-aggressive reasoning then it will be considered to be breaking the rules and action will be taken. This is a friendly warning - if anyone has any problems with the way someone posts on the forum then starting an argument about it in public isn't the correct way to address it. No one has reported this thread or any post within it for breaking Forum Rules or Terms & Conditions yet - if anyone wishes to do so then I will put the question to the rest of the staff as to whether warnings need to be issued. In the meantime, please return to the topic and address the question of a new rule in a constructive way or I will lock the thread.

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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Nahemah »

What CG said.

Also, Man on the Path was judged not to have broken rules, when staff discussed previous concerns. Please remember this.

This is a potentially decent discussion so lets not get it shut down through side swipes at individuals and other unnecessary distractions please.
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Shinichi »

cyberdemon wrote:
Shinichi wrote: Such a declaration is unreasonable in more ways than one. You would not give a loaded gun to a mentally unstable psychopath before turning him loose in a theater or to a toddler to play around with, and neither should you throw around dangerous occult knowledge to anyone who asks for it.
No, I'd teach him all about how a gun works, its different parts and not just the trigger, what a gun is capable of and what the repercussions will be of misusing it. He can then go get the gun on his own and learn to fire it if that's his decision. This is the same as anyone being taught about magick.
If you sincerely and truly believe that it is alright under any circumstance to hand a loaded gun to someone who has uncontrollable desires involving murder and mayhem, then I have nothing else to offer this discussion. Your mind is set and no amount of reason will change it.



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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by cyberdemon »

Shinichi wrote:
cyberdemon wrote:
Shinichi wrote: Such a declaration is unreasonable in more ways than one. You would not give a loaded gun to a mentally unstable psychopath before turning him loose in a theater or to a toddler to play around with, and neither should you throw around dangerous occult knowledge to anyone who asks for it.
No, I'd teach him all about how a gun works, its different parts and not just the trigger, what a gun is capable of and what the repercussions will be of misusing it. He can then go get the gun on his own and learn to fire it if that's his decision. This is the same as anyone being taught about magick.
If you sincerely and truly believe that it is alright under any circumstance to hand a loaded gun to someone who has uncontrollable desires involving murder and mayhem, then I have nothing else to offer this discussion. Your mind is set and no amount of reason will change it.
I've bolded a key-word you must have missed while reading my post. I've nothing to say if these forums refuse to discuss and educate on all the potential dangers of occult practice.

Moving on, I've already said I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular. But since you're so keen to redeem yourself as an adult, manonthepath, why don't you actually contribute by sharing what you know? If you can see an unique and elaborate ritual, you can assume adequate preparations went behind it. Showing you how a gun works? Sit down lad, we aren't even talking about you.

One more time, I'm not attacking anyone's style of posting. Rather, I'm aiming for their attitudes. It's harming the overall environment of the forums, and I quote,
Sypheara wrote:I have stopped visiting these forums as much as I used to for numerous reasons - kneejerk reactions to new guys being one of them especially.
For this reason alone I will propose another additional rule, as much as it wasn't even my plan to do so.

For reference:

ToC Behavior B. Your contributions should be within the scope of the discussion at hand, and and of an occult nature in general. Off-topic discussions should be kept to the off-topic areas, and we reserve the right to move or remove anything which is deemed inappropriate.

For consideration:

ToC Behavior x. Discouragement of Practice is prohibited. You shall not attempt to prevent anyone from learning about or practicing any occult act unless you can show valid and preferably occult-related reasons behind it.

Additionally:

ToC Behavior y. Do not tamper with the open environment of the OccultForum.org by presuming any member, new or otherwise, is in any way subject to inexperience. Criticism of their beliefs, preferences and ritual traditions must be constructive and in compliance to the previous two rules.
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by the_spiral »

Wow...I'm not casting my opinion on either side of the "is it okay to discourage practice" debate, and I hope I'm not breaking any rules just by bringing this up, but I've been here for a little while and it seems like there's a lot of infighting over tone and semantics on this forum. Is this an ongoing community-wide thing or just something that's been flaring up lately for reasons I'm missing? Because it seems like there's plenty of knowledge to be gained here, but (speaking as a relative newbie) it's not so fun wading through pages of sniping and ego battles to find it. Perhaps it's time to move on to greener pastures... [confused2]
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

the_spiral wrote:I've been here for a little while and it seems like there's a lot of infighting over tone and semantics on this forum.
Most discussion forums, especially solely text based ones, suffer problems relating to tone and semantics. We are trying to ensure such things happen as little as possible here, but such things will never be completely eradicated. We are trying to ensure that discussions of this nature only happen on this board, and don't spread out across the rest of the forum.
the_spiral wrote: Is this an ongoing community-wide thing or just something that's been flaring up lately for reasons I'm missing?
It's not just limited to this forum, discussions like this happen everywhere, if not out in open then through snide comments and back-biting.

[quote="the_spiral]
Because it seems like there's plenty of knowledge to be gained here, but (speaking as a relative newbie) it's not so fun wading through pages of sniping and ego battles to find it.
[/quote]

If you don't want to read posts on any specific board then just mark that board as read. That way you won't need to read posts that contain the material you're not interested in.
the_spiral wrote: Perhaps it's time to move on to greener pastures... [confused2]
I obviously can't stop you from leaving, but I would definitely miss your comments. Your posts are always so interesting, and your advice so helpful. [grin]

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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Nahemah »

@the_spiral:

Or perhaps it's time to help constructively and encourage open and honest dialogue from those who usually don't chime in?

[ reasons are reasons and this is not a judgement call]

Your comments are very helpful and your posts have always been balanced and informative, please don't go and please do speak your mind here. [thumbup]
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Frumens »

the_spiral wrote:Is this an ongoing community-wide thing or just something that's been flaring up lately for reasons I'm missing?
I've been here for two and a half years. It hasn't always been this dramatic.
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Shinichi »

Frumens wrote:
the_spiral wrote:Is this an ongoing community-wide thing or just something that's been flaring up lately for reasons I'm missing?
I've been here for two and a half years. It hasn't always been this dramatic.
It's that time of the decade, it seems.



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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Nahemah »

Thank you Frumens.

We need more members to speak openly and as their heart directs them.

I am not an administrator anymore, but I'm still a member with a voice, just like so many others here, so let us hear those voices, you will not be censured for sharing your opinion.

Opinions are subjective and we need to hear more from those who represent the usually 'silent majority', if you will. [thumbup]
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Frumens »

You should thank yourself for being awesome, Nahemah.
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Clockwork Ghost
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

Please remember that we can't change the Terms & Conditions - they are a legally binding document that covers the forum structure. cyberdemon, you raise some very interesting points. Could you please rewrite your proposal as a Forum Rule instead of a T&C?

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cyberdemon
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Re: Proposal of a rule against Discouragement of Practice

Post by cyberdemon »

8. Discouragement and Discrimination of Practice is prohibited. You must not attempt to prevent anyone from learning about or practicing any occult act unless you can show valid and preferably occult-related reasons behind it. Tampering with the open environment of the OccultForum.org by presuming any member, new or otherwise, is in any way subject to inexperience, is also prohibited. Criticism of individual members' beliefs, preferences and ritual traditions must be constructive and in no way discriminatory, no matter how strongly you disagree with the topic.
Perhaps change the thread's title to include both Forum Moderation and General Rules in it. Eye-catchy.
on hiatus. contact via elsewhere.

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