Taoist Physical Immortality or Yogic Ascention?

[ChaosTech]

The Chinese Taoists didn't really put much stock in an afterlife, be it heaven or hell. The common people, and those influenced by Buddhism, put more stock in heaven and hell, as they all believed they would die and that was just the natural cycle of life. Taoists were different. Taoist Alchemy was entirely obsessed with finding physical immortality and so avoiding death. There are even men and women today, who practice the various Chi disciplines, who claim to be on the road to, or have attained physical immortality.

Then there is the Yogis in India. They are concerned with performing meditations and physical exersizes to get lifeforce known as Prana, to circulate better in the body, and yoke the Yogi to the Divine. Similar to the Taoist who works with balancing Yin and Yang to produce Chi, and be in harmony with the Tao.
The difference is, the Yogis believe the phenomenal universe is a giant illusion or Maya, and is both a place of suffering and mortality, even for gods and devas, and ascended souls on the higher planes. The only escape is to yoke oneself to the wheel of the Divine, and transcend Maya. There as pure energy consciousness, devoid of form, the Yogi may find everlasting life and peace, and so immortality.

The Buddhists are a third consideration, though they do not know how to reach true Nirvanna without dying as a human and one's ghost ascending the heavens until the plane of Be, is attained. They also believe in the Maya, and say it is the planes of Do, or doing, because it is ceaseless and suffering as well.

The question is, what is the best path to true Immortality? The universe doesn't seem infinite as things begin and end everywhere all the time, so physical immortality might be pointless if one is searching for true immortality and not merely long life.

So the Yogic way, seems the most thought out. Many people practice the various forms of Yoga, for better health, healing, and even to develop or sharpen psychic or occult powers, which are called Siddhes in the east. Yoga for a true Yogi though is about more than this, these are merely tools to follow the ultimate path which leads to a true yoking to the Divine, the very meaning of the word Yoga.

I've read of stories of Yogis ascending in body to higher planes and avoiding physical death, but have never seen it.

What do you think of this path? Can we truly escape death?

[Clockwork Ghost]

I think eventually stem cell research will defeat death through the defeating of all the ailments of mankind. As people only die through the failure of organs and through disease/illness, if you eliminate all diseases/illnesses and physical ailments through stem cells and then vat grow non-rejectable replacement organs, you can effectively live forever. As to whether anyone would actually want to live forever, through an infinity of boredom and having to find the money to finance constant expensive replacement parts and distractions/entertainments, is another question altogether.

Other than that, the only alternative way to live forever is through your actions. Or thats my view anyway - we cant escape death through meditation, we can just extend our lives by a few years, improve our health, and view the essence of life with a more critical eye.

[ChaosTech]

There is alot more to genetic science then you think. For instance did you know there is an actual gene in living organisms that controlls aging? Scientists have played around with this gene in worms and fruit flies, and found that they can increase the lifespan drasticly.

Replacing organs isn't enough, unless you can transmit data from the brain into a computer and then download it section by section into the new brain organ as it is being installed, piece by piece.

Certainly though, science will bring many wonderious and strange things to humanity in the near and far future.

[Rin]

I think eventually stem cell research will defeat death through the defeating of all the ailments of mankind. As people only die through the failure of organs and through disease/illness, if you eliminate all diseases/illnesses and physical ailments through stem cells and then vat grow non-rejectable replacement organs, you can effectively live forever. As to whether anyone would actually want to live forever, through an infinity of boredom and having to find the money to finance constant expensive replacement parts and distractions/entertainments, is another question altogether.

I'm not so sure about that. Obviously as medical science advances so will the human lifespan, but I think we're a long way off from just being able to replace whatever we want an infinite amount of times, not to mention the problem of the brain, which isn't really replaceable.

[Clockwork Ghost]

I'm not so sure about that. Obviously as medical science advances so will the human lifespan, but I think we're a long way off from just being able to replace whatever we want an infinite amount of times, not to mention the problem of the brain, which isn't really replaceable.

Well, I'm not talking five years from now, more like a hundred years or so. The way science is progressing, I wouldnt be surprised to see full body transplants, or brain transplants, or any number of operations we think of as being fantastical within that time frame.

[Clockwork Ghost]

There is alot more to genetic science then you think. For instance did you know there is an actual gene in living organisms that controlls aging? Scientists have played around with this gene in worms and fruit flies, and found that they can increase the lifespan drasticly.

Replacing organs isn't enough, unless you can transmit data from the brain into a computer and then download it section by section into the new brain organ as it is being installed, piece by piece.

Certainly though, science will bring many wonderious and strange things to humanity in the near and far future.

We could of course just replace our brains with organic super computers in a hundred years - ones that never break down. This new brain computer could then link in and download problems with the body into medical computers when you go to the hospital, and the medical computers could immediately fix the broken parts or arrange for replacements to be built. Just look back at science a hundred years ago and then think what we will have a hundred years from now based on that...

[manonthepath]

Your question is "Can we truly escape death"? the answer is no. The physical body can be well cared for and last perhaps 150 years or more, but will degrade and stop functioning. According to Taoist principles the mind consists of many components, three of which are relevant to our discussion. The cognitive/physical mind or ego, which is made up of memories recorded in our brain tissue and the contexts we attach to those memories. This is finite and usually does not last even as long as our bodies do. Taoists believe in transcending this basic/animal level of consciousness to develop what lies beneath it. There are many terms for this and the one I will use id "Shen." This does not refer to a soul as westerners understand it. Rather it refers to the state of conscious awareness in the pause between our thoughts. Taoist alchemists believe that this Shen can be developed through meditation (focused concentration) and lifestyle (non-attachment and openness). If the Shen can be developed to a fine degree, the qi energy of the cosmos can be harnessed as a vehicle for its existence. The true life essence upon which your ego is superimposed will continue as a discrete unit. If you do not develop as I have stated, it will return to the collective mind of the cosmos in the same way as drops of water are returned to the sea. It's much more complex than I'm explaining it here. One thing is certain though. Who you think you are, ie, name, gender, race, self-image will all fall into nothingness. Your body will one day undergo a change of state and become fertilizer and stardust again. One day no one will sing your name or remember your passing this way. This is the way of things. Accept it and enjoy what you have because it is all you will ever have. Grow and learn how to have love and compassion in your life and don't be distracted by those, who can't face the truth that we all know in our hearts to be true..

[Visrite]

From last I heard in the science realm of biology the first person to reach age 1000 is currently alive. If you're over 60 sorry you will probably die. If you're around 40 you should see around 500 with medical technology. If you're under 30 you have a chance to choose when you'll die if ever. And this is just through medical science.

[manonthepath]

From last I heard in the science realm of biology the first person to reach age 1000 is currently alive. If you're over 60 sorry you will probably die. If you're around 40 you should see around 500 with medical technology. If you're under 30 you have a chance to choose when you'll die if ever. And this is just through medical science.

Perhaps....

[Sypheara]

Regardless of scientific advancement, one day you will die physically. The universal constsnt is change, no form not even the universe itself can remwin cohesive I one state for eternity.

This is a very good thing, otherwise the universe would be a wrse prison than even the Gnostics believe it to be.

[Visrite]

My personal belief is that the universe is shaped like a torus. So we would literally be like ants on a ballon being inflated. If the universe is holographic, and the pattern continues then as above so below. Therefor all/most galaxies are moving a similar direction, but since space is turodal in this hypothesis we can also be moving away from each other. We perceive the 3rd dimension because we are, at least spiritually, 4th dimensional creatures.

Again I am speaking about my personal opinion based on my personal readings, observations, and experiences.

[Procel]

From what I have seen, I think QiGong practitioners live over 100 years fairly routinely. At least they can. There is a lot of toxicity that we are all exposed to that wasn't common a couple hundred years ago. I also have no doubt of Yogis living a similar long physical life. I have read that alchemists who have created the stone live for about 300 or 400 years, not the 'forever' of popular myth but still quite a run. I see it as significant that the longest lived alchemists live about as long as the post-deluvian ideal. Genesis describes people before the flood living about a thousand years and people after living 300 or 400 years. I have my doubts about many of the specifics of biblical history as written, but I don't think it was made up fiction. One woman I knew who was a true scholar of antiquity told me that she believed the long, long lives described were a means of saying 'this was a long time ago and things were really different." Long ago when Genesis was written and it is the second oldest known writing (the oldest being among other things, different versions of the same stories); so we are talking long, long ago. Stories first recorded in the Bronze age may be passed down from when they were told around camp fires along the edges of the glaciers.

Anyway, 300 to 400 years is in effect 'forever'. I have seen no proof that these alchemists lived that long, but people were murdered because others thought they had the stone; so it would seem only wise that anybody who did would cover their tracks. If they had found the secret to living as long as anyone after Noah (who may have physically lived, but likely not as the Sunday school version is told and certainly not as portrayed by Russell Crowe) they would likely have seen enough to at least be at peace with death when it came if not embrace it. I remember my great grandfather who had flown planes in WWI when most people from his home town had never driven a car saying "Ninety four years is such a long, long time." He said this with a look in his eyes that told me he was reflecting in a way far beyond my teen age comprehension. (I miss that man, he died a couple years later likely welcoming The Reaper and asking "Where ya' been, Slim?".) Beyond a hundred years, how much can one want? Stretch that out to 300 plus and it must be...I don't know. I couldn't know.

If people who isolated the philosopher's stone can live that long, and assuming they have isolated and used it; one would think that many who had done so would have died of accident or misadventure along their roads. No alchemical process would save you if (in your 257th year) you had booked passage on The Lucitania's last run. The short straw is the short straw, and is not negotiable. When your letter is properly addressed, it shall be delivered.

There was a really fascinating movie revolving around immortality that I enjoyed and you might too. It is "The Man From Earth" Enjoy.

[Visrite]

The man from earth is my favorite intellectual hypothesis of some of histories greatest figures. Davinchi, Buda, Jesus, could all be the same man. I loved how they portrayed the Christians as 'mistaken on my message from the Buda' as I've thought that very same thing when researching the similarities between religions. Usually same story different point of view.

Anywho, I thought no one ever actually created the stone and were stuck on the green dragon biting the sun and making it bleed red? Which is suppose to be an aspect of mercury. But with nanotechnology adding a 3rd dimension to the periodic table I'm sure someone will find a valid compound and atomic structure that emulate the properties of the stone.

But then again I'm just a novice trying to comprehend and discuss things well beyond my personal study. However the idea of spiritual practice leading to longevity has merit in the physics of energy and the power of the mind.

[Procel]

There is great debate and no consensus as to if the stone has been made or not. Many people say it doesn't exist, other say it does. The ebook floating around the web purporting to teach how to make it met with legions of modern alchemists saying "oh, that's just a neophyte on the wrong track" but quite a few people posted that they had started the process, then no one ever posted saying it had or had not worked. I see it as an open question since I don't have the depth of knowledge to claim to know one way or another and haven't spent the couple of years it takes working up a batch. From what I have read over time and what I suspect based on wild guesswork, I think it has been made and that what it really is, is not what the popular conception of it is. It won't keep you alive forever and I don't think it will literally turn lead into gold. I think it will give you a near perfect physical process (resulting in life as long as the human organism can live) and that it likely gives you a mental edge that is tantamount to (and symbolically therefor might as well be) free gold.

[Procel]

... However the idea of spiritual practice leading to longevity has merit in the physics of energy and the power of the mind.

I could not agree more.

[Lumpino]

Interesting book about is The secret of the golden flower. Translantion by Richard Willhelm. Is freely on the net.
Chinese Taoists alchemy.
https://archive.org/details/TheSecretOf ... ndCarlJung
Good is compare it with Chakrayoga. About three months concentration inchakra Ajna and then for years on Anahata. Concentration on Anahata do prolong life and youth and provide special forces -siddhis. See Yoga.
http://yachnayoga.wordpress.com/2011/07 ... al-powers/
Anahat Chakra or heart chakra: If one contemplates on the flame called vanlinga that resides in the heart chakra (anahat chakra), he attains knowledge beyond measure. He attains clairvoyance and can see the past, present and future. He can walk in air (khechari siddhi) and travel anywhere (Bhuchari siddhi). Through his clairvoyance he can perceive the yogins.

http://aumamen.com/topic/ashta-siddhis- ... ral-powers

[manonthepath]

Yes, if one did possess some knowledge, one would be reluctant to share it without, shall we say.... a bit of motivation?

[Lumpino]

Just for completion. See links above.
The Heavenly Heart in The secret of the golden flower is chakra Ajna in yoga and the fleshly heart is chakra Anahata in yoga.

[MagusSalgon]

The Chinese Taoists didn't really put much stock in an afterlife, be it heaven or hell. The common people, and those influenced by Buddhism, put more stock in heaven and hell, as they all believed they would die and that was just the natural cycle of life. Taoists were different. Taoist Alchemy was entirely obsessed with finding physical immortality and so avoiding death. There are even men and women today, who practice the various Chi disciplines, who claim to be on the road to, or have attained physical immortality.

This isn't true across the board.

Taoists do talk about the afterlife in fact much of what they mean by immortality is not immortality of the physical body but immortality of the astral body.

Alchemic language is intentionally deceptive, sometimes its literally impossible to interpret without a "key" or having a teacher explain it to you.

[Rin]

There have been hundreds, if not thousands, of schools of what could be broadly called Taoist Alchemy throughout history, and these have included schools which have practiced both external alchemy (Wei Dan - the use of herbs, metals and so forth) and internal alchemy (Nei Dan - the use of meditation to influence internal energies), as well as plenty which combine both to some degree, and of these schools, there have been plenty which have aimed to attain both physical immortality and spiritual immortality (or again, schools where both were seen as goals, just different degrees of achievement). It's very hard to speak in specifics about "Taoist Alchemy" because the term encompasses a huge number of practices, philosophies and lineages.