Destruction of the Spirit?

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Napoli
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Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by Napoli »

Is it possible to absolutely destroy a spirit so that it exists no more? I know that it is impossible. Souls like astral body can be damaged, and hence be degraded to lower level of existence which is not something pleasant. Nonetheless, it is possible to overcome this dire condition. Recently, I have come across theories that says that there are beings out there who can consume our soul energy and we will exist no more. Then I am curious as to what happens to those who have 'sold their souls' to any entity. If they are consumed, will they disappear from existence too?
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Spida
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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by Spida »

In order to destroy something, it might help to first understand it.

SO, this will sound crazy!

As far as the Spirit, this usually denotes a greater consciousness than our individual consciousness. But as far as Human Spirit as the intangible part of the physical body. I don't think you can destroy it. Like in the song Duality by Slipnkot "You cannot kill what you did not create!"

Metaphorically speaking, consciousness is a SNAKE! It's a Snakeform/Brainwave. It's a Frequency! And it's Length and Amplitude(Frequency)determine what other Dimensions(Doorways) it will fit into, or resonate with. Ergo, why it is important for Magickians to alter their Brainwave(Snake!)frequency for purposes of exploration!

And furthermore, even if you were successful at destroying a Spirit. You are only destroying a single instance of it within a finite linear time construct. This says nothing about the outer recursive layers of Creation. Which is to say, yeah sure you can destroy it, but you cannot prevent it from re-manifesting! And it will, just as sure as it did the first time! And to the slain Spirit, Eons of time will be but a blink of an eye! Death has no sense of time! The Formula of IAO will appear to execute instantaneously!

So the answer might be yes and no.
Cheers
:)

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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by Shinichi »

The short answer is yes.

Even gods and true immortals that have near infinite longevity can be killed. Not by you, perhaps, but there's always a bigger fish in the universe just waiting for a good meal. Immortality is not Invincibility.



~:Shin:~

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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by Napoli »

Shinichi wrote:The short answer is yes.

Even gods and true immortals that have near infinite longevity can be killed. Not by you, perhaps, but there's always a bigger fish in the universe just waiting for a good meal. Immortality is not Invincibility.



~:Shin:~
But they can be re-born or re-manifest, right? Even if not in their former glory.
In my sword I trust.

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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by Shinichi »

Napoli wrote:But they can be re-born or re-manifest, right? Even if not in their former glory.
Depends on what is eaten. If it's just the astral body, of course the higher spirit can detach from that and reincarnate, just like usual. If the spirit itself is devoured or killed, then you are gone. The unique pattern of information that made up your existence is wiped clean, like running a big magnet over a computer to destroy what is on the hard drive. There is no more reincarnation. You are truly dead.

But of course, such a matter isn't really common or even easy. And as for Greater Demons eating the puny humans who "sell their souls?" Most humans, especially today, are so lacking in spiritual nutrition that rather than gaining power and energy from such a meal it would just take more energy to digest them. [tongue] Not to mention, the powers that be aren't going to let much of that go on. The Powers won't even let me unleash my full wrath on DAPL, you think they're going to let a bunch of demons run around eating whatever they like?

Lesser Spirits, though, become food all the time. Sarah Lawless talks a little about Devouring here.



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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by Firice »

Yes, making something new or destroying it is possible with artificial elementals but not with souls - that's up to God.

If you've heard of the Black Pullet book - one of Napoleon's officers got deserted in Egypt and rescued by a mage. Now this magician was so powerful he could do a lot of things. But there was no mention of him being able to destroying or creating a soul in this book or in the occult books I've read. All souls travel from this world / physical plane to the afterlife after death / the astral plane, and then graduate to the mental plane and above. God has created all souls with a heart and an ounce of himself - Ruh - and with tendencies that are governed basically by desires and lust (ref.: Imam Ghazali). So, that's the equation - everyone will have negative tendencies and one day we'll all be evaluated !

However, you might be interested to hear about artificial elementals. But I don't think they have souls. Expert magicians are able to create a completely new creature, decide on the mix of elements in the creature (fire/earth/air/water/akasha) ,give it shape and "purpose" by using life energy / psi / mixture of magnetic and electro-magnetic energy from their own bodies. It is essential to give the creature a fixed life period else it'll start to harass the creator. Dione Fortune was a British occultist and she got into the occult when her evil boss psychic attacked her with hypnosis. She did this by mistake once and created a wolf...hope this helps !

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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by Spida »

Shinichi wrote: The unique pattern of information that made up your existence is wiped clean, like running a big magnet over a computer to destroy what is on the hard drive. There is no more reincarnation. You are truly dead.
But the unique pattern of information had not existed forever. So whatever caused it to exist
the first time would cause it to exist again, in the same manner. This occuring within a non-linear
time construct.

The cause never ceases to exist, so neither do it's effects! Sporadic as it may be!

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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by Spida »

Spida wrote:
Shinichi wrote: The unique pattern of information that made up your existence is wiped clean, like running a big magnet over a computer to destroy what is on the hard drive. There is no more reincarnation. You are truly dead.
But the unique pattern of information had not existed forever. So whatever caused it to exist
the first time would cause it to exist again, in the same manner. This occuring within a non-linear
time construct.

The cause never ceases to exist, so neither do it's effects! Sporadic as it may be!
And since I didn't word the above perfectly, one could put me in check with the following:
But there is no "first time" within a non-linear time construct!

True!

And my next move would be:
Correct! So then what we end up with is an eternal cycle that transcends the Universe!

The result is the same. Nothing can ever be permanently created nor destroyed!

This "Eternity" in not contiguous, but periodic, or sporadic!

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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by Next »

Depends on where you experience destruction

Some people don't experience it in the spirit realm, some do.

If somebody's immune in the spirit realm, instead they experience destruction on the physical plane

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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by Spida »

Next wrote:Depends on where you experience destruction
No, it doesn't!

Let me say this another way to avoid being redundant...

Throw me into the fucking abyss, and I will re-emerge when the conditions are right!
Non-linear time is my saviour!
Always!

:)

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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by Shinichi »

Spida wrote:
Shinichi wrote: The unique pattern of information that made up your existence is wiped clean, like running a big magnet over a computer to destroy what is on the hard drive. There is no more reincarnation. You are truly dead.
But the unique pattern of information had not existed forever. So whatever caused it to exist
the first time would cause it to exist again, in the same manner. This occuring within a non-linear
time construct.

The cause never ceases to exist, so neither do it's effects! Sporadic as it may be!
The unique pattern as a whole was not made to exist through an act of instant creation, or however you believe you came to exist in your non-linear time view. You were not born the unique pattern that you are the moment you are reading this, and that pattern will no longer be the same that it was when you made the above posts by the time you post your reply to this. There is a sort of core spark with which many of the things you say are true, but the unique pattern of information surrounding that spark is not the same as the spark itself. It's not a matter of understanding time, but a matter of understanding evolution. That spark along with the essence that the spirit is built upon cannot be created or destroyed, but the organization of that essence, the "you"-ness of that essence, can be. That is the destruction of the spirit. No more reincarnation, no after life, no more nothing. True Death. It doesn't matter what you think or believe about time or anything else. If someone has the power and will to kill you this way, you will simply cease to exist in every way. Like disconnecting all of the atoms that make up the mass of your body, the energy will simply disperse and you'll be gone.

Such killing most certainly isn't an easy thing to do, but the thread isn't really about that anyway. The question of the thread is simply whether or not the spirit can be destroyed, and the short answer is yes.

Most of the rest of your argument only stands if you view the universe (or the spirit) as something that is eternal in the sense of it being "static." It's fine and well to believe that, but it's wrong. The only truly Eternal thing in the universe is Change. Everything is always changing, even gods are born and die. You are not the same person or thing that you were five minutes ago, and if you actually think you will emerge unchanged from The Abyss of all things...well...good luck. [gz]



~:Shin:~

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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by Spida »

@ Shinichi

The Eternal and Infinite construct that encapsulates this Universe, and all other Universes has been initiating Big Bangs for all of Eternity, with infinitely different variations on the anabolic processes. I don't believe that the complexity of the process will prevent redundancy, since we are talking about something that never began, and has no end.

However, this is what I believe. Your individual mileage may vary!
:)

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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by Spida »

You got a couple different things going on here. You have recursion(re-incarnation) within the finite linear time segment that is the Universe. But if you move further toward the outer boundaries of Creation you have recursion that exists as part of a larger process. A process that is Eternal and Infinite. Existing outside of Time, which introduces a paradox(unavoidable).

The smaller recursive cycle may retain residual memory fragments of your former self, but the larger one will not, although the essence of your former self will be renewed.

And as far as the destruction of the Spirit/Soul. It might possibly be rendered permanent(for whatever reason)in a Universal Timeline, although normally re-incarnated, but the Creator of Universes will eventually call your number again. Just as it did this time, even given the complexity of the building up processes, through the successive densities. It will happen! Again!

Yeah, and the mileage thing!
:)

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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by Napoli »

Shinichi wrote:You are not the same person or thing that you were five minutes ago, and if you actually think you will emerge unchanged from The Abyss of all things...well...good luck. [gz]

~:Shin:~
So, how will one emerge from the Abyss?
In my sword I trust.

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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by Spida »

@Napoli

That's not the Abyss that Qabalah refers to. That's just an obscure metaphor that I used for complete and utter destruction!

Instead of being lazy and throwing a blanket theory over the entire thread i.e. a Trump card. I should have worked this from the inside out. I have time for a post before Ritual, so I will...
Shinichi wrote: The only truly Eternal thing in the universe is Change. Everything is always changing, even gods are born and die.
Eternity and Change don't exactly go together. But it is true that in the Universe things are always changing, and this is most likely the only place it does occur, and in fact is probably the reason for the Universe.

Change is Time, and Time is Change. They are the same thing. So I will refer to it as "Time" from here on.

I could use a logical tautology here. Either time has always existed or it hasn't always existed.

Has time always existed?

Not likely, Time was created via the Big Bang, and progresses in a linear fasion until the Big Crunch, or the "Night of Brahma".

If you try to take this Time concept and make it eternal here is what happens:

Time needs a starting point from which to proceed forward. Without a beginning in a active time scenario you would be forever lost in an Infinite Past.Time cannot work this way, It needs a beginning. Ergo, the Big Bang.

And as far as Time/Change arising from nothing, well, that's a topic for another thread.

Cheers
[grin]

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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by Spida »

So after you understand that the Universe has a beginning and an end. You must conclude that there exists something that functions outside of the Universe, beyond things that have beginnings and ends i.e. something that is Eternal. This Eternal realm/function being the creator/initiator of THIS Universe, and that's it? Just this one Universe forever? I don't think so. It makes perfect sense that whatever created THIS Universe has always been creating Universes, forever. Doesn't matter whether it's an Eternal loop of one Universe, then another, or extend infinitely outward into the Bulk of the Multiverse(Infinity incorporated).

There IS NO FIRST TIME FOR ANYTHING HERE IN THIS MODEL. Every thing will happen again the same way, and also in an infinitely different number of ways! FOREVER! As it has, so it will!

Back to the OP:

Even if you can destroy a Spirit in this universe, you cannot prevent it's return in another. Only the core being will be re-manifest, memories and everything else will be wiped clean.

My origin lies beyond time. The essence of God may reign in the Universe, but nonlinear time is my saviour.

Always!
:)

P.S.
Nothing is perfect here. I could even further ponder, or argue with myself as to whether or not God transcends this entire model, and is the reason for everything. As opposed to periodically emerging from nothingness, and creating, or being created along with the Universe(s).

* I arrived at these things by meditating on them off and on for a number of years, which doesn't mean they are right. But some things here are probably more right than others.

* Thinking about things will only get you so far, and this is the reason for the Occult. Which is why I am here and not in some Philosophy Forum!

* I'm honestly not really that excited about ANY of this stuff, it's just what I do. And the Occult is just the next step, that's all.

* Okay so it's fun sometimes, and really interesting other times. But i'm really not that exited about it right now.

* Bye

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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by Napoli »

I agree with you on this matter, Spida. I must say that don't want to be a part of a never ending cycle of creation and destruction. How tedious. Imagine having to start from the bottom, the physical realm and climb all the way to the top, only to restart it all over again. Pfft.
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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by Spida »

Napoli wrote:I agree with you on this matter, Spida. I must say that don't want to be a part of a never ending cycle of creation and destruction. How tedious. Imagine having to start from the bottom, the physical realm and climb all the way to the top, only to restart it all over again. Pfft.
That's a good point, and I have thought about it a few times. It's not very pleasant when you
think about it, and it wouldn't be a bad idea to meditate on that as well. As that is an obvious consequence,
and maybe that aspect could be better understood, or perhaps just is what it is.

One thing I could say about this right now is that every time does virtually appear to be the first time,
because all of the former things have passed away. So you have the illusion that everything is new,
but is unsettling to think about.

Maybe I should think about that some more since you bring it up. Maybe I might see something else there.

Cheers
:)

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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by house6and12 »

theirs a class of abyssal beings commonly called devours that do consume souls, but your about as likely to be targeted by one as is dead like me style death from space toilet for a few reasons first abyssal beings almost never enter the material world by choice second most human never go beyond even looking into abyss ie. window like not fully entering and thats enough to drive them to rapid madness, devours are deep abyssal power houses id be beyond shocked if theres a single human today that could even summonone so to take the next step controlling it. and lastly humans are like the rest of the incarnate world have yet to break free the yoke of mortal cycles, unlike other entities that can benefit more indirectly from mortals they eat souls whole sale thus the quality of the meal is based on the souls strength a human like eating celery you burn more carbs then you get from it

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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by house6and12 »

a soul can also self destruct but dont confuse self destruction w suicide, if a soul loses its sense of self it breaks apart no amount of suffering can cause that to suffer means you realize you exist, thus being able to suffer its seen mostly in new artificially created souls or formerly enslaved souls given free will unable to accept the reality of existence, it cant maintain forum w out a sense of self theirs no glue so to speak holding the energy together it is a very disturbing sight, the worst things you could ever imagine arent close to seeing a being so confused it cant even understand its confused blow apart but like w devours such instances are extremely rare o the point its not worth thinking about maybe one soul in every ten thousands years related to the mortal plane ceases to exist and most are new souls they vanish b4 birth few ever notice. what is more common is otherkin when two or more subtle bodies and souls are damaged to a point self recovery will feel like a living hell for so many cycles they'd lose all sanity if they find there core values agree they merge each helping to patch what the other missing many have some degree of multi-personalities few are flawless but even most multi dont conflict they share the same values and goals simply putting whose skills are best set for a given task as the primary in each situation

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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by house6and12 »

a soul can also self destruct but dont confuse self destruction w suicide, if a soul loses its sense of self it breaks apart no amount of suffering can cause that to suffer means you realize you exist, thus being able to suffer its seen mostly in new artificially created souls or formerly enslaved souls given free will unable to accept the reality of existence, it cant maintain forum w out a sense of self theirs no glue so to speak holding the energy together it is a very disturbing sight, the worst things you could ever imagine arent close to seeing a being so confused it cant even understand its confused blow apart but like w devours such instances are extremely rare o the point its not worth thinking about maybe one soul in every ten thousands years related to the mortal plane ceases to exist and most are new souls they vanish b4 birth few ever notice. what is more common is otherkin when two or more subtle bodies and souls are damaged to a point self recovery will feel like a living hell for so many cycles they'd lose all sanity if they find there core values agree they merge each helping to patch what the other missing many have some degree of multi-personalities few are flawless but even most multi dont conflict they share the same values and goals simply putting whose skills are best set for a given task as the primary in each situation

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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by Cerber »

house6and12 wrote:theirs a class of abyssal beings commonly called devours that do consume souls
I don't believe that to be entirely correct. Technically "anybody" can feed on souls, just not everybody resort to such diet, and not everybody has the knowledge and skill to "cook a meal" of it.
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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by violetstar »

What must be destroyed will be.Thus said the Shadow and it was so.
Woe if I reveal,Woe if I do not reveal...

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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by bathtub-alchemist »

I believe that energy cannot be created nor destroyed, but I do believe that spirits and entities can be blasted into disincorperation.....and the bits drift and become new things.

Just my take on it....

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Re: Destruction of the Spirit?

Post by Cerber »

Well "creation and destruction" kind of implies "something out of nothing" and "nothing out of something", a bit harsh. Although I do believe such extreme possible, I think mostly it's just sort of "conversion" and "disintegration" that is happening. One can take a soul and shred it, break it apart, but to totally destroy it out of existence - I wouldn't know where to begin even theoretically
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