Solving your problems with magic. Right or Wrong?

[Mysticwizard452]

I recently had a rather heated debate with a so-called 'adept' over this subject.

He asserted that we have problems and suffer for a reason and that we must strive to understand that reason and that we shouldn't use magic to solve those problems. His thinking was that by using magic as a problem solver, we are effectively cheating our destiny in some way. No matter how much I challenged him to ellaborate on his logic I could not get any straight answers from him other than that I should just take it on faith.

I felt compelled to stand firm in my opposition to that line of thinking, considering the fact that he was effectively contradicting magical doctrines ellaborated by many well known and respected occult authors including Cicero, Regardie, & Mathers, just to name a few.

While I would agree that we should honor those things which are divinely ordained, I believe that our growth as magicians must eventually include mastering and directing our own destinies so that we are no longer subject to the capricious dictates of fate.

I think that this is an important philisophical issue for magicians to consider. So, I thought I mite open this topic for discussion and read your own thoughts on this matter.

[Ramscha]

The question is now, is there really something like fate? As I understood it, he takes the things coming at him as some devine whatever that happen one after another. I can understand the position in a way and it is not the first time I hear it.
The problem for me is now the position of fate. What is "destiny", who defines it and controles it? Why is it there? Is it really present?
Human is aware of time as a linear flow.

As far as I know time can be rather easily be defined by the 2 law of termodynamics (which is famous from the disputes between creationists and atheists about the existence of god) which defines the direction of time as a increase in entropy/chaos in a closed system. That creates clearly a picture of time as a flow into one direction, moving from present to future.

However, now comes the point which gives me troubles when it comes to things like fate or destiny, things which are predetermined. It is Einstein's fault. I don't want to make it to complicated so lets jump directly to the point: Einsteins adds time as a fourth dimension to the three room dimensions calling this "spacetime".Present can only be determined at the point where the observer is standing which makes the rest of the points all relative to the observer.

I would recommend wikis article regarding time as it collects really a nice bunch of ideas and views about time

So when all points are relative except the one I am right now which is defined as present, it would make things difficult to be seen as predetermined as this would make them absolut. But since they are relative, this possibility is lost.

Ramscha

[Mysticwizard452]

An impressive reply Ramscha. Thank You. I took great pleasure in reading it. However, I would like to offer a few counter points, just to get your thoughts.

My first (partial) counter point (addressing time and the laws of thermodynamics) is based loosely on the concept of T-symmetry (Though I don't claim to have a full understanding of the theories involved so please forgive any glaring error on my part). Consider the idea of an event creating a time reversal effect, allowing the initial event or its effects to be observed prior to its occurrence. In occult phenomena we have multiple examples of this.

The first and most obvious example would be precognitive perception (Perceiving the future and then seeing that future happen exactly as perceived).

Another less obvious example would be the 'Magical Paradox'. Setting intentions for certain magical operations and seeing corresponding results occur before you've actually done the operation. In my own experience this only ever happens if I actually perform the operation, despite the results having already manifested.

The reason for which I cite occult phenomena for my first counter point is because occultism deals a lot with non-physical systems. The inherent lawfulness of T-asymmetry with physical macroscopic material is obvious. But non-physical systems aren't necessarily (if at all) subject to the same laws. This premise doesn't necessarily support absolute predestination. However, could it be possible that there is a kind of dynamic, selective predestination?


My second counter point is one of a purely spiritual/philosophical nature. In the absence of classical fate(absolute predestination), there exists the possibility of competing forces. In context of this forum topic, I refer to the will of the magician vs the will of other spiritual forces. You may want one thing, angels may demand something else. You may try to do 'this', but planetary/zodiacal forces (which have their own angelic/demonic hosts) dictate 'that' happens instead.

So consider the possibility of a non-absolute kind of fate as I have tried to illustrate just now. Are we committing a gross impiety by disputing this fate or are we simply switching off a divine autopilot meant for those who lack the will to steer themselves?

[Ramscha]

My first (partial) counter point (addressing time and the laws of thermodynamics) is based loosely on the concept of T-symmetry (Though I don't claim to have a full understanding of the theories involved so please forgive any glaring error on my part). Consider the idea of an event creating a time reversal effect, allowing the initial event or its effects to be observed prior to its occurrence. In occult phenomena we have multiple examples of this.

The first and most obvious example would be precognitive perception (Perceiving the future and then seeing that future happen exactly as perceived).

Of course, that is an interesting point. The T symmetrie is an interesting theory when it comes down to applying the 2 law of thermodynamics on smaller dimensions. The problem with it is that it does not really answers a question rather then just creating more of them (like it is always the case).
To the thought experiment exists an interesting counterpart which states that we observe a continueing increase of entropy/chaos in the universe whereas at the beginning the universe started with small entropy.I guess this is coupled to the point that the univere is continously increasing in size and expanding.
Problematic about the whole thing is that we can't really comprehend If the universe started with low entropy as we can't really fix the birth of space down to one point (as there was no space before). That is where the whole thing becomes a philosophical issue again.

Another less obvious example would be the 'Magical Paradox'. Setting intentions for certain magical operations and seeing corresponding results occur before you've actually done the operation. In my own experience this only ever happens if I actually perform the operation, despite the results having already manifested.

I encountered this thing myself, yes. The problem with this is just that there are no parameters which determine this phenomenon, only that it happens, not, when or where or why.

The reason for which I cite occult phenomena for my first counter point is because occultism deals a lot with non-physical systems. The inherent lawfulness of T-asymmetry with physical macroscopic material is obvious. But non-physical systems aren't necessarily (if at all) subject to the same laws. This premise doesn't necessarily support absolute predestination. However, could it be possible that there is a kind of dynamic, selective predestination?

I don't see when we left the physical realm. I see that you follow platons seperation of physical and non-physical world, but that is not necessarily an absolut valid point of view. Looking at it from another perspective like the basic germanic system there never was such a seperation. Everything is part of one system, spirits, ghosts, trees, gods, realms, etc. Sure, there are the realms which are seperated but all in all everyone of them is as physically real as the others.

Therefore I doubt the physical-nonphysical concept as an absolut factor as there are plenty of others models without this seperation which would in return erases the problem of possible immunity to the laws of the physical world. Still, mankind only scratches on the surface of the cosmic clockwork which in return also means there most likely are laws influencing the universe that we don't know or don't understand yet (as history shows this scenario occured plenty of times).

My second counter point is one of a purely spiritual/philosophical nature. In the absence of classical fate(absolute predestination), there exists the possibility of competing forces. In context of this forum topic, I refer to the will of the magician vs the will of other spiritual forces. You may want one thing, angels may demand something else. You may try to do 'this', but planetary/zodiacal forces (which have their own angelic/demonic hosts) dictate 'that' happens instead.

So consider the possibility of a non-absolute kind of fate as I have tried to illustrate just now. Are we committing a gross impiety by disputing this fate or are we simply switching off a divine autopilot meant for those who lack the will to steer themselves?

That is an interesting point indeed. But again there is the problem of the "divine autopilot". Lacking the will to steer. How much, do you think, do you really choose and how much is already decided by surounding influences? So Why should there be such a magickal devine button? I think that the set-up is thought to be a little bit too small as to me it seemingly only includes the human existence. What about the ant whoich follows its daywork, the plant growing, the stone splitting apart due to ice in a crack of its surface?

But I will hook up on the point of competing forces. There is a very interesting spiritual concept called "wyrd".
It could be roughly described as a kind of web connecting humans, gods, spirits and ancestors with each other forming some kind of own destiny. However, this destiny is not really predetermined, but depending on how the person lives (9 noble virtues as an example) as well as the ancestors on whose shoulders he/she stands and how the interaction with the other participants in this net is. Interaction will influence the own wyrd.

That, however, was a very cursory definition, I would recommend the book "Exploring the Northern Tradition" for a deeper look, there it is quite weel explained. I guess one could form a further interpretation out of this concept, maybe taking out the moral component or so.

Ramscha

[RoseRed]

I don't know that there is a right or wrong answer. It's a matter of ethics and belief in the Powers That Be that control the things in our lives.

I don't think that the power of mere mortals can change Fate or Destiny. I think that certain things are bound to happen to us in life. It's how we deal with these things that speaks to who we are. As a more concrete example - if I need to nail 2 boards together I'm not going to pick up a screw driver if it's a nail. We build and work on our skillsets. They're just another tool in the box. I don't understand why someone wouldn't use the tools that they've worked so hard for.

[Mavus]

Hi great discussion!

A few more ideas, observations of my own.

Destiny on some level of ones being is of 'One's own making'. Understanding and owning Self at that level or inwardness then comes to be the issue. I know 'inward knowing' to be continuous however, so I do not admit any limit to mastery of destiny.

Mysticism is faith and I would hold it equal to the above principle. I could keep extrapolating but I prefer to 'jump' to another consideration.

You always do as you 'will' and you always 'own it'. However, to the extent you 'mystify' this, is to the extent you have chosen to go at it 'blinded' in the shadow of the gods.

Practicing magick is 'you' unfolding 'You'. There is no morality to it, you are responsible for you cannot get away from 'You'.

I would say, be practical and love Life.

I have always chosen to learn about 'me' by practicing magick.

Kind regards,

[insomni4c]

I don't believe in free will so to me there is no right or wrong, things unfold right when they were supposed to.

If you look at the beginnings of the universe, whether from a scientific perspective or a creationist perspective. Whatever positions and velocity of matter and energy at that time predicted everything that will ever happen. For example hydrogen happened to collect together to form the first stars from which all other elements originate, where these stars would form and where would be able to be predicted mathematically based on the positions and velocity of these hydrogen atoms after the Big Bang (if they were all accounted for haha). Now the position and sizes of these stars predicted the later accumulation of other elements, because that's where they came from.

Then if you think about life on earth, it was only able to exist because of the position and elements make up of the earth, if it had been the slightest different life would be completely different or not exist at all. From the first life form it has evolved according to the conditions of the earth, eventuaolly we get humanity from this process. Our thoughts and actions are all influenced by our brain chemistry, natural instincts, and our environment. For example even though we would view a psychopathic individual as evil, they only became what they are because of a combination of genes and the environment they grew up in.

Opponents of determinism will often say that we make choices everyday, that you can decide whether or not to do something. But really if you think about it logically that's not completely true, I mean you "could" have stayed in bed this morning but would you have? Think about anytime you used magic to solve a problem in your life, you "could" have solved the problem by mundane means but if you think about all the things influencing your decision it could not have gone any other way. Same goes for any decision you've ever made, if you apply that logic you'll see that every decision was already decided before you even made up your mind.

Now if you believe in some sort of a creator it's pretty much the same thing, except instead of it being predictable by science ( which it still could be if the creator left it alone once the system was started ) it all unfolds according to the creator's will, whether he/she meddles or not yye initial influence would be enough to ensure the predestination of the entire universe.

Sorry for the wall of text haha, wanted to explain what I meant and how I arrived at that conclusion. I'm not sure if it translated well into text or not but I can clarify anything if it didn't. With that perspective there is no right now wrong, everything that's meant to happen does and nothing that is not meant to can happen.

[Mavus]

I don't believe in free will so to me there is no right or wrong, things unfold right when they were supposed to.

There are those who determine... and that which is happy to be determined.
[smile]

Not that there are 'creators' but that some of us are 'them'. Also most angels decry 'free will' but they do 'believe it exists'. An interesting difference.

Any... God-unique exercises free will from 'within'.

However, I acknowledge these are statements that to another are 'beliefs'.

Kind regards,

[Mysticwizard452]

...most angels decry 'free will' but they do 'believe it exists'. An interesting difference.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by this? Why would Angels decry free will?

[Mavus]

...most angels decry 'free will' but they do 'believe it exists'. An interesting difference.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by this? Why would Angels decry free will?

Sorry to get back to this late, missed your response.

Free Will defies Collective Consciousness, or collecting consciousness.

The Heavenly Man is made of willing 'cells'; they are made, shaped, planted, recruited, invested in, watched over, protected... ...free will can throw this for a 'loop'.

Also collective cells are 'predictable', a known element. For instance they do not go off and 'change the past', 're-create themselves with plans other than those collective approved'.

Look at the sheep in all major religions and this can become even more clear.

Also, in the myth of fallen angels, they became 'prey' to 'free will' and could 'infect' the rest of the hive. It is not the only way however that such a grand cyclic event occurs.

Does this help? It is really a vast, far effecting subject indeed.

[Desecrated]

I thought the entire point of magic is to solve problem, attract more of what you want and kick out that you don't want.

[Ramscha]

I thought the entire point of magic is to solve problem, attract more of what you want and kick out that you don't want.

In the modern magick related to Irael regardie, Crowley, Spare and others this is the core spirit, yes. But then, there are others with a more religious or philosophical background sometimes less practically oriented, generally spoken.

Ramscha

[Mavus]

I thought the entire point of magic is to solve problem, attract more of what you want and kick out that you don't want.

In the modern magick related to Irael regardie, Crowley, Spare and others this is the core spirit, yes. But then, there are others with a more religious or philosophical background sometimes less practically oriented, generally spoken.

Ramscha

Consider this if you will...

What is 'solve problem'?
What do you want above all else?
And what proven skills by demonstration can you 'kick out that you don't want?

Since I am as described in above post of 'Ramascha' more or less, here is some of it.

Solve problem? What problem, it is just another opportunity to prove ones faith in whatever I be or make.

Above all else... Be conscious immortal, a Self aware creator; and not particularly the lame 'co-creator' with God crap. Not anything against original Creator here, but not bound beyond my own understanding. As well not satisfied with that 'understanding' being 'hidden' or 'beyond'.

Without demonstration you ain't shit.

...also

You only get what are so proving and that is all you get until you once again prove out that you are.
I am not just here (in this finishing School) to 'save my own ass', that is too plain, too easy so seeming...
So, I will keep my accounts clear and leave what I take.

As much as I care for this 'School' and honor it, I loathe a terrible purpose, especially their 'recruiters'. I use the word 'their' because I see a terrible purpose as self-aware and often seeking rather pointedly to defend itself.

As long as you are honest to your own desire, thus nature, success is bound to you.

[Desecrated]

I thought the entire point of magic is to solve problem, attract more of what you want and kick out that you don't want.

In the modern magick related to Irael regardie, Crowley, Spare and others this is the core spirit, yes. But then, there are others with a more religious or philosophical background sometimes less practically oriented, generally spoken.

Ramscha

Consider this if you will...

What is 'solve problem'?
What do you want above all else?
And what proven skills by demonstration can you 'kick out that you don't want?

Since I am as described in above post of 'Ramascha' more or less, here is some of it.

Solve problem? What problem, it is just another opportunity to prove ones faith in whatever I be or make.

Above all else... Be conscious immortal, a Self aware creator; and not particularly the lame 'co-creator' with God crap. Not anything against original Creator here, but not bound beyond my own understanding. As well not satisfied with that 'understanding' being 'hidden' or 'beyond'.

Without demonstration you ain't shit.

...also

You only get what are so proving and that is all you get until you once again prove out that you are.
I am not just here (in this finishing School) to 'save my own ass', that is too plain, too easy so seeming...
So, I will keep my accounts clear and leave what I take.

As much as I care for this 'School' and honor it, I loathe a terrible purpose, especially their 'recruiters'. I use the word 'their' because I see a terrible purpose as self-aware and often seeking rather pointedly to defend itself.

As long as you are honest to your own desire, thus nature, success is bound to you.

Some of these statement are contradictory to my beliefs, So I will therefore argue my point and describe the situation from my point of view.
(because it's the internet, and that is what we do)

If anything happens for a reason, everything happens for a reason, I do not need any will or desire.
If one event is set before me, it is reasonable that the event following that is also set for me. Rendering any possible influence from my part useless or even pointless, worst case scenario even meaningless.

What you describe is a universe that tests you. It makes you trip, but then *poof*, you have free will again and can determine how you are going to fall, and then *poof*, free will is gone and the universe hands you the next lesson.

Although one can argue for a completely determined universe, I would rather choose to live in one with slightly more freedom. AND if I do have will, desire and needs, I will choose to act upon them.
And if I can enhance my resources or opportunities to please my self through magic = good

So if something I don't want comes my way. It's a problem and I will get rid of it, or get rid of my attitude towards it or in some way try and accept it if it turns out to be permanent.

And if I don't get what I do want, it's a problem and I will spend energy to achieve it, solve what ever blocks my way to it and/or strength what ever connection that do help me towards my goal.

If noting is a problem and life 'just' happens for a reason, I might as well lay down in a ditch and watch it happen.

[Mavus]

Hi,

Everything happens for a reason, yes but whose reason? I will and desire to know my impact on same.

Does ones 'core personality' both evolve and yet 'pre-exist' this created universe though be an universe intensely vast?

Is the Creator any different than I, considering this 'core personality' idea to evolve and yet pre-exist?

The Creator grows by creating, can I grow by the Creator's effort 'more than the creator here'?

Can I even 'replace' said Creator by this evolving, unfolding something within divinely unique or God-unique from within said 'core Personality'?

Can I not ultimately evolve other than the current universe, Creator included? Will not the Creator do so as well?

At what level is determination determined?

Can you so Center in SELF to ones divine-unique core to even re-create the universe plus, plus?

I chose will, desire, feeling, imagination, design, inspiration, love, knowing and more. I am sure you and all Life does too, for indeed how would one separate Life from these?

As I mentioned, I see specifically, this New Eden or Earth as a School for finishing; for each their own purpose. So basically we will never agree wholly with anyone else here at this cycle.

However, I gain perspective from everything happening and all I care to dance with; all the while knowing we died to be born here and die to leave and yet never really die at all for all Life experienced come with me as a treasure of the soul.

What I also meant, is that being here is more than trinkets acquired via magick, it is of the soul every wit.

'Do as you dare for that is You unfolding true'

I am not arguing against collectively evolving and gainful participation therein for I comprehend no exclusion.

Creation is full of paradox's & enigmas. There is no nailing it down, nor need there be except you seek to 'prove out some detail'.

Kind regards,

[manonthepath]

The question is interesting and has been debated for centuries. The simple fact is that we can not know the answer. "Big Bang" was like a cue ball starting a cosmic chain reaction. The balls are already set in motion. Of course the limitations of Newtonian physics and of our cognition prevent us from "knowing" any definitive answer. Perhaps intuiting the answer through meditation might prove more enlightening. Mantak Chia and Deepak Chopra have written some excellent things on this subject. One thing we need to keep in mind is the context of our existence. We are fragile creatures under going a very finite physical manifestation, while sitting on a rock hurtling the galaxy at about 66,000 miles per hour, or therabouts. I think we, as a individuals, sometimes overestimate ourselves.

[manofsands]

I've wondered on the idea of fate and karma, and what always threw me was the needed behind the scenes mechanics it would take to make it all possible, ecspecially considering the multitude and not just the individual. It would be hard enough to coordinate one fate/karma, let alone everyone's all at once. And even if it could be coordinated wouldn't someones free will take a hit in individual choices to get all the details to happen?

One of the reasons I don't believe this can be the case is because the universe is nothing if not efficient. Everything in nature is accomplished with minimal effort. That does not describe the above situation.

This doesn't mean I don't think there are things 'like' fate and karma. Following the reincarnation/spiritual evolution idea I talk on often,..

I think we have something like a spiritual score card we carry with us. I envision as part of our aura. Maybe with bumps and valleys which signify things we know and don't know. (This is my simplistic version). I think these aura score cards interact with each other. 'Magnetically' we are drawn to others who can fullfill lessons for us. So we would have free will, but we would be attracted to those who could help us further our understanding of the universe (good and bad). This also frees up the universe from having to keep track of everything. Efficient karma

[RoseRed]

Everything in nature is accomplished with minimal effort.

That's a very broad, sweeping generalization and not entirely true.

Most things in nature fight and scrape to survive. Hell, even plants will kill each other off for sunlight. Minimal effort? Ever seen the remains of a wolf attack? How about a volcano? There's nothing minimal there.

The strong surviving isn't about who puts in the least amount of effort.

-----------------------------

So, if you don't believe in karma or fate because of the behind the scenes mechanics of it - then who or what is it that chooses and gives certain people their score cards?

[manofsands]

Everything in nature is accomplished with minimal effort.

That's a very broad, sweeping generalization and not entirely true.

Most things in nature fight and scrape to survive. Hell, even plants will kill each other off for sunlight. Minimal effort? Ever seen the remains of a wolf attack? How about a volcano? There's nothing minimal there.

The strong surviving isn't about who puts in the least amount of effort.

-----------------------------

So, if you don't believe in karma or fate because of the behind the scenes mechanics of it - then who or what is it that chooses and gives certain people their score cards?

You totally didn't get what I was saying.

I wasn't saying life was easy. I was saying that natures designs are efficient. Scientist have started realizing this and when they have a problem or design issue they have started to see how nature has solved the problem. Nature is efficient. Thru untold eons it perfects its designs.

As far as the score cards go, no one on the other side decides our score. Each individual decides their own, thru their own experiences and the level of understanding they gain from those experience.

[RoseRed]

You're right. I totally didn't. I gotcha now. Thanx for taking the time to explain it in little words. It's been a hell of a week.

(and for the record - that is not sarcasm. I meant exactly what I wrote.)

[Lord Ferocia]

It is often viewed that magic used to gain something, such as fame and fortune is "black magic", in that it relates to the mundane. High Magick seeks to unite the individual with "God", the higher self. When this is accomplished, these mundane aspects often seen before as "problems" transform. One transcends the physical limitations of the "ordeal" and gain a new understanding of life and the nature of the universe of which they are a part.

Life's momentum, and impetus is based upon imperfection, and friction, and resistance. It is through the friction of life, that we are lead to self discovery and growth. This is not to make the sweeping statement that the use of magic to "better" one's life, or to gain something is "wrong", just as anything else in life, these decisions fall into a grey category until the end. Imagine if you will a game of Chess, as an allegory of life. Each move is a decision, and an action taken, such as using Magick to solve a problem (btw just because it is using a means unrecognized by science, doesn't make it any different than any other action), one can not fully appreciate the value or morality of an action until the "end of the game". I may lose my queen, and fear the worst, but aha! I see now an opportunity to Checkmate with a pawn! The failure then of losing the Queen proved in the end to be beneficial to my "work".

This brings us to the subject of the True Will, which really put's all of this into a little better perspective. The True Will, to keep it simple, is what you are here to do, your role in the greater whole, and your own personal authentic preferences. The True Will is a personal relationship of the individual to the Higher, to that greater mechanism, where they operate more efficiently, unfettered by imposed dogma and moralities. Magick seeks to expose one to this True Self (which is a much better term), and allow them to operate within the greater scheme smoother. Problems then are viewed as part of the process, and one may understand them as either something to overcome in a particular fashion (that may prove to build character they require) as it relates to this True Self.

For example, one may believe in the illusion that they are a wonderful singer, and many of their friends (wanting to be kind and supportive) may feed this delusion. They may in reality not have the talent required to make it as a singer, although they persist. Now, in this example, the person in question will find it a rough road ahead in trying to accomplish this false goal. It is antithetical to their true nature. In response, the universe will resist them, and seek to correct their path. They may insist, like a spoiled child, goaded on wanting to feed the ego, finding ego gratification (a false goal) in their fanciful image they have build of themselves. This is the nature of MANY "problems" and resistance. Often people seek to use magic in assisting them in these false goals, and it can lead to disaster. Although they may cause more success within it than otherwise gained "naturally", the full momentum of the universe, and their true nature work against them. It is not "evil" or "wrong" that they use magick to this end, it is simply foolish.

The point is to understand oneself, to apply oneself in a means that is best suited for them, devoid of false images and ego gratifying masks they may wear in order to shore up weak self esteem. it is these underlying facets of the "problems" that the adept seeks to take notice of, and "listen" intuitively, and with brutal self honesty, that he may strengthen his Will, and do upon the planet without fear or regret what he is meant to do, and not that which he imagines it to be.

[manofsands]

Nicely put LF

[RoseRed]

It is often viewed that magic used to gain something, such as fame and fortune is "black magic", in that it relates to the mundane.

Actually, I've never heard of 'black magic' being defined this way before. Low magic deals more with the mundane, although High Magick is used for personal gain as well. Low magic works more closely with the mundane than High Magick does.

I've always heard 'black magic' defined as a baneful working with an intent to harm. Not personal gain unless the gain is the consequence of the magic used.

[Eremita]

If you can get something you want with magic, go for it. Why the hell not.

I was thinking on this the other day; the notion that we perhaps incarnate to experience certain negative situations, and thus a certain flavour of suffering - but ultimately, we can't know that.

If you followed that mindset to the end, you would arrive at a philosophical inability to move out of the way of a speeding bus, because after all, maybe you were incarnated to experience being flattened and scraped off the road.

I don't know why we're here. I know suffering can help us grow, but if I can have experiences that will bring me positive feelings, and avoid experiences that will incur negative feelings, I'm gonna do it. Magic is just one possible avenue for this behaviour.

Besides, if you're truly destined to have certain painful experiences, then I imagine no amount of magic will help you to avoid it. Divine law, True Will, blah blah blah, etc etc.

[Desecrated]