magick/belief

[manofsands]

Does magick require belief?

[Shinichi]

No.



~:Shin:~

[magari]

Thats a good one.

I'd say no because I believe it exists independently of consciousness, but my only experience of it is through consciousness.

fun to think about.

[Frumens]

It depends on the type of magic I think.

[findingtruth]

How do you separate yourself from belief and magic?
I am currently in a weird state where I'm basically agnostic/skeptical about everything. I've tried a couple rituals in the past and they just felt very empty... of course, this could be faulty information I received but still. I've been reading some posts on here and it's sounding very real but very overwhelming and nearly impossible. I feel like I'd need to believe in something for it to work and I don't know if I can.
I suppose this could just be me being fearful and overwhelmed at what can be accomplished and being at a loss of how to get to that point. So how would one go about approaching magic/rituals/etc without believing?

Did that make sense? My thoughts are scattered so I hope it did.

[cyberdemon]

The lack of immediate correlation between magick and belief can be seen, for example, when random people play with ouija boards for fun and then fun things actually happen.

[findingtruth]

The lack of immediate correlation between magick and belief can be seen, for example, when random people play with ouija boards for fun and then fun things actually happen.

So basically just do things "for kicks" and see if something happens? I say "for kicks" while still meaning to do them according to how they're supposed to be done.

[Shinichi]

The distinct separation of magical craft or metaphysical science and belief is because of an extremely mundane fact of logic.

Something either is or it isnt, either works or it doesnt. You can stare at a candle all day every day believing that you are making the flame flicker this way or that, but when you realize it was the air current on your room you have to face the fact that your belief in your actions were irrelevant and you did not affect the flame at all. Meanwhile, someone who is not worried about whether they believe in moving the candle or not may exercise the actual metaphysical principles of Psychokinesis with proper focus and will be able to bend the flame to their will, extinguish it, and relight it exactly as they intended.

The dogmas of belief and disbelief are psychological shackles and are entirely irrelevant to the actual practice of Magick and Mysticism. Be "properly" skeptic, in that you question and investigate the legitimacy of matters and so that you are not so open minded that your brains fall out. And naturally, believe whatever the hell you like. But at the end of the day, something simply either works or it doesnt.



~:Shin:~

[cyberdemon]

The lack of immediate correlation between magick and belief can be seen, for example, when random people play with ouija boards for fun and then fun things actually happen.

So basically just do things "for kicks" and see if something happens? I say "for kicks" while still meaning to do them according to how they're supposed to be done.

In general, doing something for kicks is a good way to mess up. I mean, going into a haunted house for kicks is still for kicks, right?

[Rin]

IMO it helps, and active disbelief is counterproductive, but the degree of difference it makes is minimal in the grand scheme of things if you practice properly.

[Desecrated]

Belief = "This will work"
Positive thinking = "I hope it works"
Logic and critical thinking = "This should work"
Magic = "It's already working"

[palindrom]

You can stare at a candle all day every day believing that you are making the flame flicker this way or that, but when you realize it was the air current on your room you have to face the fact that your belief in your actions were irrelevant and you did not affect the flame at all. Meanwhile, someone who is not worried about whether they believe in moving the candle or not may exercise the actual metaphysical principles of Psychokinesis with proper focus and will be able to bend the flame to their will, extinguish it, and relight it exactly as they intended.

~:Shin:~

that's excellent, thanx a million : )

can you say something more about "the actual metaphysical principle of psychokinesis", or recommend a book or exercises? bardon?

pali

[Shinichi]

can you say something more about "the actual metaphysical principle of psychokinesis", or recommend a book or exercises? bardon?

pali

Introduction to Kinetics, by Kobok.

Basically, to offer my own instruction in addition to that:

1) Meditate until you can relax your mind to Mental Silence (Kobok's Focal Meditation achieves this, as does the Mental Discipline I offer in my own Fundamental Development).

2) Focus on the candle flame, letting everything else in your mind fade away. Focus. Distractions will eat at your progress.

3) Connect your Awareness to the candle flame. Be aware of it, feel your consciousness/energy/soul/spirit/choose-your-label reach out and become a part of it. This is extremely important. When you extend your consciousness into the flame correctly, you are the flame, as certainly as you are your pinky toe. This is also extremely simple, so don't over complicate it. Use your focus, move your Awareness according to your intent, and if you can control your Awareness correctly it will simply extend into the flame because that is your intention.

4) Bend the candle flame according to your intent, the same way that you would bend your finger according to your intent. This will take some exercise at first, much like it will take some exercise to bend a finger that you don't usually use that way. Pianists and Guitarists usually have to go through training to gain full control of all their fingers the way they want, and it takes a little time. But the principle here is simple: through the same intent that you use to bend your finger, bend the flame. It doesn't matter that the flame is several feet away from you. If you focused your consciousness correctly, it is part of you.

If you have connected your consciousness correctly and silenced your mind of distraction correctly, you will have success with step four very quickly. But the development of this skill is thoroughly dependent on how far you develop your Psycho-Emotional Discipline (Mental and Psychic Discipline in Fundamental Development) and how much you develop your Awareness. Think of how a martial artist can't do a decent round house kick if he doesn't have good enough balance and flexibility, and it's the same thing with metaphysical skills. There are foundational pre-requisites to successful development.

If you understand all that, then just meditate for a while, light a candle and make it move. It's that simple.



~:Shin:~

[magari]

Belief = "This will work"
Positive thinking = "I hope it works"
Logic and critical thinking = "This should work"
Magic = "It's already working"

This is great.

[palindrom]

can you say something more about "the actual metaphysical principle of psychokinesis", or recommend a book or exercises? bardon?

pali

Introduction to Kinetics, by Kobok.

Basically, to offer my own instruction in addition to that:

1) Meditate until you can relax your mind to Mental Silence (Kobok's Focal Meditation achieves this, as does the Mental Discipline I offer in my own Fundamental Development).

2) Focus on the candle flame, letting everything else in your mind fade away. Focus. Distractions will eat at your progress.

3) Connect your Awareness to the candle flame. Be aware of it, feel your consciousness/energy/soul/spirit/choose-your-label reach out and become a part of it. This is extremely important. When you extend your consciousness into the flame correctly, you are the flame, as certainly as you are your pinky toe. This is also extremely simple, so don't over complicate it. Use your focus, move your Awareness according to your intent, and if you can control your Awareness correctly it will simply extend into the flame because that is your intention.

4) Bend the candle flame according to your intent, the same way that you would bend your finger according to your intent. This will take some exercise at first, much like it will take some exercise to bend a finger that you don't usually use that way. Pianists and Guitarists usually have to go through training to gain full control of all their fingers the way they want, and it takes a little time. But the principle here is simple: through the same intent that you use to bend your finger, bend the flame. It doesn't matter that the flame is several feet away from you. If you focused your consciousness correctly, it is part of you.

If you have connected your consciousness correctly and silenced your mind of distraction correctly, you will have success with step four very quickly. But the development of this skill is thoroughly dependent on how far you develop your Psycho-Emotional Discipline (Mental and Psychic Discipline in Fundamental Development) and how much you develop your Awareness. Think of how a martial artist can't do a decent round house kick if he doesn't have good enough balance and flexibility, and it's the same thing with metaphysical skills. There are foundational pre-requisites to successful development.

If you understand all that, then just meditate for a while, light a candle and make it move. It's that simple.



~:Shin:~

thank you : )

i can also see bardon's exercises helping me towards getting into this state of being...

...i'm gonna check out your fundamental development texts, but first i'll have to move house here - busy times : )

have a good day

pali