Atheist Occultists

[Atzmuth]

Have you ever seen one? And do you think Occultists must believe in a deity or a source of power?

[Sypheara]

I've seen plenty. And dmust they believe in a deity? No, not at all.

I do however think Occultism makes very little sense if you don't believe it has any source of power.

The argument will be trotted out about 'mind programming' or what have you but at that level its basically cheap psychology.

[Stukov]

It depends on what type of atheist you are talking about (there are many) or if you are even talking about a type of atheism. My knowledge and experiences are there are many powerful beings or entities that exist, none of them created the "universe", none of them I accept as a "god", as I define that as a power you submit to, I think beings that have a consciousness have a soul, things that don't have a consciousness have a spirit - often shared by members of the same group (wolf, plants, water, planets, stars), there are many planes of existence outside the pure physical realm, when things die they go according to the paradigm they are stuck in (sometimes enslaved in), and there are those who have a more "Buddist"(?) view of the universe as a whole being a conscious being that they call god (that they consider we are part of) are wrong to anthropomorphize it as it is closer an amoeba and really no different than the collection of "spirit" from all the things inside it (multi-celluar organism, but no actual will or thought).

There are a few more details of course I left out, but I would say there is no god, I know the being that many people consider "the" god, and the majority of his power is accumulated by the energy transfer the belief in him provides, he doesn't really care about you (though his workers will sometimes do things for good PR), and is rather a self-delusional asshat jerkface.

[Nahemah]

Have you ever seen one?

[crazy] [cool]

This is one I spotted at the bowling alley, she must be a silly creature, the ball clearly was too heavy, but she's trying to use it anyway.



And this one hanges around the forum a lot. [rolleyes] [shock2] [wink]

...And do you think Occultists must believe in a deity or a source of power?

There are many resources and sources of power in this Universe, are there not?

I don't feel like justifying my position atm, lazy day today : nothing is real, all is permitted.

More later, maybe. [thumbup]

[Desecrated]

Have you ever seen one? And do you think Occultists must believe in a deity or a source of power?

I've seen and meet many. It's probably more common on the left hand path.

Personalized energy (energy with a face or a name, gods/demons/angels/spirits) is just one way to work with magic. You can imagine any magic as just moving around electricity. magnetic fields and so on. God can be just another metaphor for our subconscious.

But I don't think a hardcore skeptic would be able to do it.
I highly doubt Dawkins would be able to read the tarot, because he would be to busy trying to explain why it doesn't work, then to be able to suspend his belief for a moment and just allow it to work-
If you need absolute proof of everything it might be a bit sketchy. There seems to be an element to spellwork where you don't really care how it works, you are just confident that it does work.

[the_spiral]

I have nothing of value to add to this topic except...super cute undercut Nahemah! I've always wanted to try one, but my hair is nearly down to my waist at this point and I can't shake the irrational fear I might have an odd looking skull...

[goomegatherion666]

I don't believe in any Gods, deities, spirits, demons, angels, ghouls, or ghosts. I also don't practice as much as I should and I only have a couple of years of experience under my belt. All that I think is that intelligent beings have much, much more potential than they think that they do.

I do however think Occultism makes very little sense if you don't believe it has any source of power.

The argument will be trotted out about 'mind programming' or what have you but at that level its basically cheap psychology.

Saying "cheap psychology" is underselling the idea. It's more like unincorporated territory. Once we get past the life-randomly-growing-out-of-random-goo paradigm we'll be able to accept occult ideas into mainstream psychology.

I could flip the argument on you and say that since theist occultists need to have a reason for God to exist, they assign all of their own power to Him. It's basically cheap religion.

[RoseRed]

Wouldn't that be Christians instead of occultists?

[goomegatherion666]

The two aren't mutually exclusive. Both Christians and theistic occultists believe in a higher power. As an atheist occultist my source of power is internal. "I am alone. There is no God where I am."

[magari]

The two aren't mutually exclusive. Both Christians and theistic occultists believe in a higher power. As an atheist occultist my source of power is internal. "I am alone. There is no God where I am."

If you are alone... where did you come from?

[Desecrated]

Wouldn't that be Christians instead of occultists?

What's the difference?

[goomegatherion666]

If you are alone... where did you come from?

My mother? Circumstances that were dependent on my birth? There are plenty of models of reality and consciousness that don't involve gods.

[magari]

If you are alone... where did you come from?

My mother? Circumstances that were dependent on my birth? There are plenty of models of reality and consciousness that don't involve gods.

And where did she come from?

My point isnt that your power comes from god, but that it is a gift from those who came before you.

[Draco20]

It's not possible for the materialist type of Atheists. There is just no room in the worldview for occult phenomena.

Bearing in mind that 'Atheism' originally means 'without God(s)' IMO it's enterily possible to disbelieve in the God Theory but still retaining a spirituality and/or believing in some forms of occult and magick. I don't think there's a contradiction. And we have proof of feasability here.

Though it begs the question, where do this all come from? As a Panentheist, the idea of 'God' provides me a structure within which I can at least attempt to provide an answer as to what it's all about, as to what I am doing. But I acknowledge that my understanding is rudimentary and bound to remain incomplete for I believe that the Higher Purpose is not a concept that we can really comprehend from our limited human minds.

[Stukov]

My point isnt that your power comes from god, but that it is a gift from those who came before you.

That isn't always true. Unless you are saying your power comes from what you consume...

[Desecrated]

It's not possible for the materialist type of Atheists. There is just no room in the worldview for occult phenomena.

Though it begs the question, where do this all come from? As a Panentheist, the idea of 'God' provides me a structure within which I can at least attempt to provide an answer as to what it's all about, as to what I am doing. But I acknowledge that my understanding is rudimentary and bound to remain incomplete for I believe that the Higher Purpose is not a concept that we can really comprehend from our limited human minds.

Not all atheists are materialists.

Also, I don't need to understand something to use it. I don't know how a computer works exactly, but I'm using one now-
I don't know exactly how the universe works, where it comes from, what created it and so on. But it's there, so we can use it.
No need for god or gods when I can do it myself.

For me there is no higher purpose then my purpose. I've always felt that god is just a way to shift responsibility from oneself. It's like inventing an eternal parent so that you can stay a child for the rest of your life.

[magari]

You start somewhere.

My other point is that no one is ever alone. We are all a part of the whole.

Your ability alone has a very human foundation. You have those who came before you to thank for that.

What you do with that is up to you.

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

I do however think Occultism makes very little sense if you don't believe it has any source of power.

The argument will be trotted out about 'mind programming' or what have you but at that level its basically cheap psychology.

Saying "cheap psychology" is underselling the idea. It's more like unincorporated territory. Once we get past the life-randomly-growing-out-of-random-goo paradigm we'll be able to accept occult ideas into mainstream psychology.

I think the best way to chew on this one would be that, with or without consciousness being linked or eternal, it still stands to reason that all we ever do is process is stuff that flows through us (the illusion of free will being the illusion of ourselves as the originating point for anything). In that sense we can explore the depths to which we can process what flows through us and explore how much creative complexity we can employ.

I like the idea of incorporating unincorporated territory. It does make me think in a tangential way of consciousness reclaiming the subconscious as Freud was a proponent of and similarly for both mystic/occult orders I'm learning from the priority seems to be exactly that - gaining volitional use (as well as creative application) of things that for most of our lives, and for most people around us, go on automatically.

[Desecrated]

My other point is that no one is ever alone. We are all a part of the whole.

Your ability alone has a very human foundation. You have those who came before you to thank for that.

That isn't a fact, it's just one belief.

[magari]

Perhaps not

but it explains enough for me.

Let me know when you figure out how you got those opposable thumbs for drawing your sigils. Or learned how to read and write without another human teaching you.

[magari]

If you are alone... where did you come from?

My mother? Circumstances that were dependent on my birth? There are plenty of models of reality and consciousness that don't involve gods.

Reading this again I wanted to correct you...

"Circumstances that were dependent on my birth"

As in your mother was created for you. As in time moves backwards.

That makes sense, but if thats the case then moving forward into the future everyone who exists after your death are the independent ones and they depended on you to create the world they will live in.

Either way you're affecting the world as a human and that will breed consequences for the humans of the future.

Again, you're not alone.

Seeing yourself as the independent creation that everything before you depends on is an incredibly selfish point of view in my opinion. Not saying you're selfish of course.

The alternative is that the source of all creation (whatever it is) is the independent one and we all depend on that in order to exists. Time moving forwards.

Even if we take a purely scientific view, the probabilities that you exist as you do now considering what it took to create the universe, our galaxy, our solar system, this earth, and all the humans put together to create you.... is like 1 in infinity.

I call that a blessing, a gift, something to be respected and grateful for.

You are human. Deny your humanity and the universe won't have a use for you. You'll be a member of that large percentage that dies quickly and learns nothing.

^^^ This isn't fact, just a perception, possibly a belief, but not mine. I'm still trying to understand the implications of the magnetic phenomenon recently discovered.

[magari]

For example...

technically time moves forwards and backwards...

Can't speak to which one is the right one for us

However if humanity is a single organism, those of us who choose not to be a part of that whole rarely survive long.

This is my observation.

[goomegatherion666]

It's not possible for the materialist type of Atheists. There is just no room in the worldview for occult phenomena.

Though it begs the question, where do this all come from? As a Panentheist, the idea of 'God' provides me a structure within which I can at least attempt to provide an answer as to what it's all about, as to what I am doing. But I acknowledge that my understanding is rudimentary and bound to remain incomplete for I believe that the Higher Purpose is not a concept that we can really comprehend from our limited human minds.

Not all atheists are materialists.

Also, I don't need to understand something to use it. I don't know how a computer works exactly, but I'm using one now-
I don't know exactly how the universe works, where it comes from, what created it and so on. But it's there, so we can use it.
No need for god or gods when I can do it myself.

For me there is no higher purpose then my purpose. I've always felt that god is just a way to shift responsibility from oneself. It's like inventing an eternal parent so that you can stay a child for the rest of your life.

This is how I view the occult for the most part. Whether or not I believe in God, gods, spirits, or whatever, magick works. All I need to know is how to get results. Worrying about the theory, in my opinion, is a waste of time. Until Michael comes down from Heaven and bitch-slaps me out of my circle, I'll continue to practice as if I'm the source of my own power.

I just finished Siddhartha and in the book he describes people who aren't initiated into mindfulness practice as "child-people". They don't pursue big goals because they defer responsibility for their lives to a god.

Reading this again I wanted to correct you...

"Circumstances that were dependent on my birth"

As in your mother was created for you. As in time moves backwards.

That makes sense, but if thats the case then moving forward into the future everyone who exists after your death are the independent ones and they depended on you to create the world they will live in.

Either way you're affecting the world as a human and that will breed consequences for the humans of the future.

Again, you're not alone.

Seeing yourself as the independent creation that everything before you depends on is an incredibly selfish point of view in my opinion. Not saying you're selfish of course.

The alternative is that the source of all creation (whatever it is) is the independent one and we all depend on that in order to exists. Time moving forwards.

Even if we take a purely scientific view, the probabilities that you exist as you do now considering what it took to create the universe, our galaxy, our solar system, this earth, and all the humans put together to create you.... is like 1 in infinity.

I call that a blessing, a gift, something to be respected and grateful for.

You are human. Deny your humanity and the universe won't have a use for you. You'll be a member of that large percentage that dies quickly and learns nothing.

^^^ This isn't fact, just a perception, possibly a belief, but not mine. I'm still trying to understand the implications of the magnetic phenomenon recently discovered.

My quote was really more about how "there is no God where I am." It belongs to Crowley, who has had a large impact on my worldview.

However, even before Crowley, I had philosophical ideas. One of them that has stuck is solipsism, which has many flaws. However, I suspend my disbelief in order to pretend to have some sort of a clue. I also cherry-pick ideas that validate my view (like many others do.) I do think that I am the center of my own reality. Others humans and creatures exist here with me, but when the Atman is looking through their eyes their will is supreme. And I just contradicted myself. I guess I'm not a true atheist. I just have a problem with Sky Daddy.

What I am not is a humanist. I don't need to have faith in the power, goodness, or value of others. Everybody is responsible for their damn selves. So when people talk about coming together as a species I laugh. Maybe when the Aeon of Horus has given way to the Aeon of Hapi we will finally attain harmony with each other and the planet

Back to my response. I am my own father and mother. I don't care about what I leave for others when I die. I am an independent source of reality.

The last bit of your post reminded me of an idea that the difference between a Godly and a Satanic worldview is that people that believe in God submit themselves to the world where Satanists view themselves as independent agents. If that's the case then Hail Satan baby.

[Draco20]

Not all atheists are materialists.

Agreed.

Though from personal experience; spiritual, occultist Atheists seem to be more the exception than the rule as opposed to the materialists, pro-scientism.

Also, I don't need to understand something to use it. I don't know how a computer works exactly, but I'm using one now-
I don't know exactly how the universe works, where it comes from, what created it and so on. But it's there, so we can use it.
No need for god or gods when I can do it myself.

I don't think anyone can claim to know the fundamental nature of the Universe and the physical reality but that doesn't mean
you can't have your idea, theory or even following a religion that makes sense to oneself. Some have had spiritual experiences that are hard to dismiss.

My own delving into these subjects suggest to me that there is ''something more'' to it. It is this ''something more'' that I call 'God' for lack of a better term.

[magari]

It's not possible for the materialist type of Atheists. There is just no room in the worldview for occult phenomena.

Though it begs the question, where do this all come from? As a Panentheist, the idea of 'God' provides me a structure within which I can at least attempt to provide an answer as to what it's all about, as to what I am doing. But I acknowledge that my understanding is rudimentary and bound to remain incomplete for I believe that the Higher Purpose is not a concept that we can really comprehend from our limited human minds.

Not all atheists are materialists.

Also, I don't need to understand something to use it. I don't know how a computer works exactly, but I'm using one now-
I don't know exactly how the universe works, where it comes from, what created it and so on. But it's there, so we can use it.
No need for god or gods when I can do it myself.

For me there is no higher purpose then my purpose. I've always felt that god is just a way to shift responsibility from oneself. It's like inventing an eternal parent so that you can stay a child for the rest of your life.

This is how I view the occult for the most part. Whether or not I believe in God, gods, spirits, or whatever, magick works. All I need to know is how to get results. Worrying about the theory, in my opinion, is a waste of time. Until Michael comes down from Heaven and bitch-slaps me out of my circle, I'll continue to practice as if I'm the source of my own power.

I just finished Siddhartha and in the book he describes people who aren't initiated into mindfulness practice as "child-people". They don't pursue big goals because they defer responsibility for their lives to a god.

Reading this again I wanted to correct you...

"Circumstances that were dependent on my birth"

As in your mother was created for you. As in time moves backwards.

That makes sense, but if thats the case then moving forward into the future everyone who exists after your death are the independent ones and they depended on you to create the world they will live in.

Either way you're affecting the world as a human and that will breed consequences for the humans of the future.

Again, you're not alone.

Seeing yourself as the independent creation that everything before you depends on is an incredibly selfish point of view in my opinion. Not saying you're selfish of course.

The alternative is that the source of all creation (whatever it is) is the independent one and we all depend on that in order to exists. Time moving forwards.

Even if we take a purely scientific view, the probabilities that you exist as you do now considering what it took to create the universe, our galaxy, our solar system, this earth, and all the humans put together to create you.... is like 1 in infinity.

I call that a blessing, a gift, something to be respected and grateful for.

You are human. Deny your humanity and the universe won't have a use for you. You'll be a member of that large percentage that dies quickly and learns nothing.

^^^ This isn't fact, just a perception, possibly a belief, but not mine. I'm still trying to understand the implications of the magnetic phenomenon recently discovered.

My quote was really more about how "there is no God where I am." It belongs to Crowley, who has had a large impact on my worldview.

However, even before Crowley, I had philosophical ideas. One of them that has stuck is solipsism, which has many flaws. However, I suspend my disbelief in order to pretend to have some sort of a clue. I also cherry-pick ideas that validate my view (like many others do.) I do think that I am the center of my own reality. Others humans and creatures exist here with me, but when the Atman is looking through their eyes their will is supreme. And I just contradicted myself. I guess I'm not a true atheist. I just have a problem with Sky Daddy.

What I am not is a humanist. I don't need to have faith in the power, goodness, or value of others. Everybody is responsible for their damn selves. So when people talk about coming together as a species I laugh. Maybe when the Aeon of Horus has given way to the Aeon of Hapi we will finally attain harmony with each other and the planet

Back to my response. I am my own father and mother. I don't care about what I leave for others when I die. I am an independent source of reality.

The last bit of your post reminded me of an idea that the difference between a Godly and a Satanic worldview is that people that believe in God submit themselves to the world where Satanists view themselves as independent agents. If that's the case then Hail Satan baby.

I'm not disagreeing with you.

However, it take a great number of people working together to accomplish some of the great things in this world today. The pyramids, men in space, technology, ect. We could argue over whether or not these are good things, but I'm not going to go there. My personal observations is that these advancements brought on by the foundations laid by society and the men and women who make sacrifices for society has created a much more orderly and comfortable world for a lot of people. The majority continue to suffer, but what was once accepted as the norm (death by the common cold) has become unacceptable by today's standards. There will be suffering as long as we are human and continue to experience the world the way we do. However, if we look at what once was and compare those challenges to today I see progress. New problems are brought on by these advancements, yes, but its a matter of refinement and tuning in my eyes. Not an endless sea of suffering that most conspiracy theorists and activists choose to believe.

Individuality and independence is invaluable to the progress of our species. However if that individual cannot return to the source and apply the lessons and knowledge gained from their experiences then they will leave this world with them. Again, selfish in my opinion.

If everyone adopted this perspective the entire human race would collapse. Fortunately we are both mind and heart, man and woman. What was once a species attempting to empower the individual has now begun to shift towards community, sustainability, and a vision to empower the future.

The native american's would say that you should think 7 generations ahead. How do your actions today create a better world for the future?

The lone path is something everyone must walk, but in the end we return to that from which we came.

Again, you should be grateful that society thought it wise to teach you how to read and write. What you do with that is up to you, but from that point forward you were a creation of society. Do you depend on your ability to read and write? I would assume so considering you're here and that you've made your progress based on the writings of others.

The individual chooses how to use these gifts. First for themselves to learn how to fly, then for the others; if anything to set an example.

We all stand on the shoulders of giants. Flying solo is fun, but flying with your best friends is even better. If you have any that is....

Again, no judgement. Just observations.