Is suicide honorable?

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Spida
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Re: Is suicide honorable?

Post by Spida »

Haelos wrote: When I'm ready, I'm quite sure I'll be ending my physical life with willful death-by-thought. Whether I transcend or descend is up for the universe to decide.
I've actually thought about this from time to time. I don't dwell on it; I don't like the idea of dying of old age. Death by thought would absolutely be the best way, if it were possible. [unsure]

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Re: Is suicide honorable?

Post by Horny Goat »

Haelos wrote:
When I'm ready, I'm quite sure I'll be ending my physical life with willful death-by-thought. Whether I transcend or descend is up for the universe to decide.

I've actually thought about this from time to time. I don't dwell on it; I don't like the idea of dying of old age. Death by thought would absolutely be the best way, if it were possible.


Death by thought is what the Gnostics were said to have practiced. A type of astral projection but permanent. Leave the body. Never return. Will it to die.

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Re: Is suicide honorable?

Post by Cybernetic_Jazz »

Something else right on topic:

http://mediacomtoday.com/news/read/cate ... ing_his-ap

Looks like Robin Williams didn't simply succumb to bipolar, rather his actions were something closer to a self-euthanization.
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Neko-phyte
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Re: Is suicide honorable?

Post by Neko-phyte »

RoseRed wrote:You're talking about just finishing up school. S is talking about paying a mortgage and feeding your children and spouse.
If that was directed at me, well that's all I know and my bad for not really being able to talk about the military. I'm only 25 and I'm not part of the defence forces. I know people who are/were, but not enough to contribute to this topic. Aside from this, I still think I have a valid point; there are still many people out there who do have to pay rent/mortgage and have other mouths to feed aside from their own (just out of school, or military, or someone else). I'm sorry I didn't realise that the topic had shifted to strictly military. In Australia at least, there are some people who can get veteran's concessions but like all welfare things from the government you can't live off it alone. Everything else I could possibly say has already been said by magari.
Cybernetic_Jazz wrote:I feel kind of nutty talking like that about economic systems but I do think, as the employment problems get worse, that people will increasingly start identifying that a) capitalism is a victim of it's own success - in a good way if we know how to look at that from a non-Marxist perspective and rather as a stepping stone in human progress b) when capitalism was still a work intensely in progress we needed every hand on deck and when it was like that capitalism WAS a viable welfare system, and as it naturally phases humans out we'll need an alternate one for ourselves - one that makes real sociological sense rather than just employing utopian ideas that look good on paper.
I feel the same way, but I think you're right and I agree with everything you've said. I think the polarisation is less extreme in aussie government than it seems to be in the US, but I've sure noticed the population itself polarising, and rather rapidly... Also there's too many unofficial factions in our government and nothing gets done except a rapid cycle through PM's. I think our two-major-parties style of government will fall apart soon/'soon'. I don't look forward to the freefall but I look forward to moving away from how things are right now.


That Robin Williams article is real interesting. I don't know if it's just me being bad at keeping up (that's a real chance) but I didn't actually know about the Parkinson's or the dementia when he passed away and the internet exploded about it. To be losing not only mobility but mental ability as well, and at the same time, that's damn rough. Never blamed him before but certainly couldn't now.

Also this page came to mind: http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/

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Re: Is suicide honorable?

Post by Hadit »

Cybernetic_Jazz wrote:Something else right on topic:

http://mediacomtoday.com/news/read/cate ... ing_his-ap

Looks like Robin Williams didn't simply succumb to bipolar, rather his actions were something closer to a self-euthanization.
I think this undermines the struggle Robin Williams went through in his life, and all his death really can show us about mental illness. People get the most awful diagnoses every day, and they don't cut and hang themselves. Hell, look at Hawking. I doubt he'd kill himself simply as a form of euthanasia.
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Re: Is suicide honorable?

Post by Sypheara »

I think the only person who has a right to talk about whether a suicide was right or not for them is the person involved.

At the end of the day, each persons life is their own.

I think in some terminal illness cases it makes sense. If you know you have a degenerative brain disease or cancerous tumour, and your prognosis is terminal, I personally dont see any issue with it. Nor when you reach an age where you are descending into infirmity. Its not honourable.. but its not dishonourable. It just is.

When one of my relatives died (not suicide ill add now) everyone was relieved. It was better than him continuing to live in a shocking state that had crippled a once proud man.

In the West we value life above else far too highly. Death has its place, it is a renewal, it needs reincorporating back into western culture and moving out of its frankly backward $4000 dollar coffins, embalming fluid, concrete lined grave nonsense behavior.

We avoid it in life and try to hide all evidence of it when it occurs. We often treat our terminally ill far worse than dogs - at least we put down dogs humanely when they are in great, irrecoverable pain to end their suffering.

To go back to my earlier point about the volunteering:

Volunteering is all well and good, but at the end of the day its not going to pay for:

Your rent or mortgage.
Your utility bills.
Your food.
Anything else you might require.

Therefore it is no substitute for either being employed or self employed. Whilst I agree with your deductions on the system neko, volunteering is no substitute for a job in the way the world is structured. I did volunteering for the reasons you describe - it got me no closer to living in my own property and having my own independence, despite being enjoyable and rewarding.

As for making people on benefits do work.. the benefits are usually far, far too low paid and making people do volunteering work for them basically IS slave labour. At the point those benefits would actually become a living wage, you may as well call it paid volunteering or as its better known, having a job.

Automation as mentioned will make most jobs obsolete. Even programming which i do will one day most likely be obsolete and be replaced by machines programming themselves. At which point, all these jobs we would create for ourselves are basically just an excuse to keep ourselves busy on the main doing things we dont actually enjoy.. all rather strange really!
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RoseRed
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Re: Is suicide honorable?

Post by RoseRed »

Is that true about Robin Williams? Dementia and Parkinson's? It it is true - he knew the Death he was facing and the absolute Hell his family was about to endure.

Do any of you have any idea what it's like living with a disease that is going to kill you in horrible ways?

Have you cared for those that have died in long and drawn out horrible ways? I will not put my kid through that. And that's where most people stop talking. And thinking - because euthanasia is kind to your family and for some stupid reason way more acceptable than 'I choose not to die in that fashion'. When you actually say that part out loud - people look shocked and horrified. You'd be surprised at the shit that pops out of their mouths. At least be honest with yourself about your motivations.

Which brings me to the another thought...

Is 'euthanasia because of medical reasons' looked at differently than 'plain old suicide'. (Like such a thing even exists). I think it is. Quite different. People in general seem to have much more compassion for things than can see for themselves (look at so and so suffering in that wheelchair unable to whatever). They also seem to forget that illnesses and whatnot that really are 'in your head' like depression (simple example - I'm talking about people in general). These are physical illnesses. Whether they have symptoms outwardly showing symptoms or not.

Some people just break. They can either find a way to rebuild themselves, wallow in it until they expire or try to find a way to ease/end the suffering.

Did any of you see last weeks episode of the Walking Dead? We finally find out where Morgan learned his staff wielding skills. When he first met up with the guy he kept screaming 'kill me' over and over again. It was quite an episode.
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Re: Is suicide honorable?

Post by Cybernetic_Jazz »

Hadit wrote: I think this undermines the struggle Robin Williams went through in his life, and all his death really can show us about mental illness. People get the most awful diagnoses every day, and they don't cut and hang themselves. Hell, look at Hawking. I doubt he'd kill himself simply as a form of euthanasia.
Yes, with bipolar he survived 60+ years of having his astral body in a washing machine. On top of that then add the terminal disease situation. I'd say that combination is enough to get most people.

In short no one's claiming that his bipolar didn't wear him down.
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RoseRed
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Re: Is suicide honorable?

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RoseRed wrote:
You're talking about just finishing up school. S is talking about paying a mortgage and feeding your children and spouse.
Neko wrote: If that was directed at me, well that's all I know and my bad for not really being able to talk about the military. I'm only 25 and I'm not part of the defence forces. I know people who are/were, but not enough to contribute to this topic. Aside from this, I still think I have a valid point; there are still many people out there who do have to pay rent/mortgage and have other mouths to feed aside from their own (just out of school, or military, or someone else). I'm sorry I didn't realise that the topic had shifted to strictly military. In Australia at least, there are some people who can get veteran's concessions but like all welfare things from the government you can't live off it alone. Everything else I could possibly say has already been said by magari.
Yes, it was directed at you. You and S were talking about very different times in a persons life. Why do people get so offended about being young? We all were.

No one said or implied that you're point was not valid. Sypheara's point was that someone who is at a different point in life most likely isn't going to let their family go hungry under while living in a cardboard box so the occultist can go volunteer their time. Different stages of life have different levels of responsibility. It's not personal.

The topic didn't shift to strictly anything. That's just where it was at the time. Good topics meander.

What magari wrote was beautifully poignant and brought tears to my eyes.
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Re: Is suicide honorable?

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magari wrote:
Combat arms make up less than 1% of the US military.

In Japan you have the navy and the airforce, some marines and a tiny unit of green berets.
I'm sure you are correct. I'm using the word military to encompass the entire "military" I have no idea what the different branches does.

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Re: Is suicide honorable?

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Horny Goat wrote:Magari, Sweden is the rape capital of the world because it's beautiful girls and women are being targeted my followers of a 7th century mind-control cult we read a lot about in the newspapers nowadays. To criticise this mind-control cult is deemed 'ray-cist' so it mustn't be done. Besides, the victims inflicted it upon themselves by not covering their heads, and by not being accompanied, by walking several feet behind, their male relatives. They 'seduced' their rapists, see. Whore's were asking for it - at least that's the defence the rapists usually give if ever questioned about such attacks, which their prophet said were okay anyway against unbelievers.
Immigrants are overrepresented in rape charges, but they are not the majority. We also have to remember that arabs are not the majority of immigrants in sweden, and not all arabs are muslims.
Having the third largest party in sweden being a neo-nazi party makes the debate even harder. It's either the PK-media showing it under the rug or the internet-mafia throwing around fake numbers and false statistics.

I personally think that the main reason is our legal system. The longest punishment is "life" and that is currently 18 years, but few serve more then 12 years. Most people convicted for rape gets between 6 months and 2 years. IF they even get a sentence, something that is getting harder and harder to get when it comes to rape cases.
Way to many cases are getting thrown out for stupid reasons like what SHE was wearing and if she had any alcohol that night. Like it's the victims fault for getting raped....

This means that serial rapists are able to use the prisons as temporary housings and don't fear the consequences, simply because there isn't any. So I don't think we have more rapists then other countries, it's just that in other countries they are usually in prison.

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Re: Is suicide honorable?

Post by Horny Goat »

Quoting RoseRed: Is 'euthanasia because of medical reasons' looked at differently than 'plain old suicide'. (Like such a thing even exists). I think it is. Quite different. People in general seem to have much more compassion for things than can see for themselves (look at so and so suffering in that wheelchair unable to whatever). They also seem to forget that illnesses and whatnot that really are 'in your head' like depression (simple example - I'm talking about people in general). These are physical illnesses. Whether they have symptoms outwardly showing symptoms or not.

Over here in the UK there is some debate over whether euthanasia should be legalised or not. At the moment it isn't but there is a campaign for it to be so. However, although still technically illegal it is actually very co not practiced in our state owned hospitals - it's called the Liverpool Care Plan. It works like this. An old person is admitted to hospital. They are old, so they must be dying, right? The doctors think so. In order to speed them on their way, onto the Liverpool Care Plan they go. No food. No liquids. No medicines. No pain relief. Until they die, which if they're lucky might take only 2-3 days. Your relative will be put on it in the most underhand way. Anyone studying this will see the atrocities committed under it. It's done entirely to free up beds.

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Re: Is suicide honorable?

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Desecrated wrote:
magari wrote:
Combat arms make up less than 1% of the US military.

In Japan you have the navy and the airforce, some marines and a tiny unit of green berets.
I'm sure you are correct. I'm using the word military to encompass the entire "military" I have no idea what the different branches does.
A bit off topic, but....

The reason I mentioned this was because you quoted my remark regarding "grunts" specifically then proceeded to talk about rape.

To me there is a huge difference between combat arms and the rest of the military. Even within the military, the cultures are incredibly unique.

There is a huge issue of sexual assault within the military (soldier on soldier). However, the entire 4 years I was in the military I never worked with women. At the time they weren't allowed in combat arms. Unsure what the situation is now, I know some women passed ranger school.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl ... /31925331/

However, I can't recall a single sexual assault issue either. We were stationed in Germany. Prostitution is legal in that country. Seemed to curb the appetites of the hungriest men.

Its funny how rape and suicides and abortion all seem to overlap each other in discussion.

A lot of people like to point at other foreign militarys that use women in combat, I'll just remind them that there isn't another military on earth that can compete with America's, in special operations or full spectrum warfare. We do suck the big one when it comes to peacekeeping though, maybe thats where the women come in, but what does that have to do with ground combat operations?

Sorry, rambling way off topic now.

Rose: I appreciate your words.

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Re: Is suicide honorable?

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magari wrote: A lot of people like to point at other foreign militarys that use women in combat, I'll just remind them that there isn't another military on earth that can compete with America's, in special operations or full spectrum warfare. We do suck the big one when it comes to peacekeeping though, maybe thats where the women come in, but what does that have to do with ground combat operations?
It's funny you mention this, because with the stuff I've been watching lately. I've been a little worried about China, and their military. I'm thinking they are seriously bad ass, based on sheer numbers alone. I would love for someone to tell me different though. Russia doesn't seem to bother me as much.

Sorry to go off topic. Just wanted to sneak that by.

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Re: Is suicide honorable?

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Sypheara wrote:I think the only person who has a right to talk about whether a suicide was right or not for them is the person involved.

At the end of the day, each persons life is their own.

I think in some terminal illness cases it makes sense. If you know you have a degenerative brain disease or cancerous tumour, and your prognosis is terminal, I personally dont see any issue with it. Nor when you reach an age where you are descending into infirmity. Its not honourable.. but its not dishonourable. It just is.

When one of my relatives died (not suicide ill add now) everyone was relieved. It was better than him continuing to live in a shocking state that had crippled a once proud man.

In the West we value life above else far too highly. Death has its place, it is a renewal, it needs reincorporating back into western culture and moving out of its frankly backward $4000 dollar coffins, embalming fluid, concrete lined grave nonsense behavior.

We avoid it in life and try to hide all evidence of it when it occurs. We often treat our terminally ill far worse than dogs - at least we put down dogs humanely when they are in great, irrecoverable pain to end their suffering.
RoseRed wrote: Have you cared for those that have died in long and drawn out horrible ways? I will not put my kid through that.

People in general seem to have much more compassion for things than can see for themselves (look at so and so suffering in that wheelchair unable to whatever). They also seem to forget that illnesses and whatnot that really are 'in your head' like depression (simple example - I'm talking about people in general). These are physical illnesses. Whether they have symptoms outwardly showing symptoms or not.
I agree with you both wholeheartedly. Sypheara your point about our obsession with extending life at any cost reminded me of a friend who visited his 98 year old grandfather in hospital, only to find a dietitian standing over the bed warning Grandad that his liberal use of salt would almost certainly reduce his life expectancy!
Horny Goat wrote: Over here in the UK there is some debate over whether euthanasia should be legalised or not. At the moment it isn't but there is a campaign for it to be so. However, although still technically illegal it is actually very co not practiced in our state owned hospitals - it's called the Liverpool Care Plan. It works like this. An old person is admitted to hospital. They are old, so they must be dying, right? The doctors think so. In order to speed them on their way, onto the Liverpool Care Plan they go. No food. No liquids. No medicines. No pain relief. Until they die, which if they're lucky might take only 2-3 days. Your relative will be put on it in the most underhand way. Anyone studying this will see the atrocities committed under it. It's done entirely to free up beds.
Horny Goat, I can't say there's much in this thread I agree with you on, but on this point we're in heated agreement. It's a monstrously cruel approach I've tried to challenge from both sides of the fence, professionally and personally. My mother suffered from Alzheimer's Disease for ten long years and when I received the call to say she was close to death I drove through the night and found her in exactly the condition you describe. She had had no fluid or medication for two days. I did my best to drip water into her mouth myself as the nursing staff refused to do so. They'd also been instructed not to move her to a quieter room so my attempts to soothe her a little with her favourite classical music were fruitless. She died parched and in agony to three TVs blaring out the news of NATO airstrikes against Colonel Gadaffi.

All her life she was a dignified, independent, caring woman who eased the suffering of innumerable patients. She would have been horrified to see anyone die the barbaric death she experienced. Her passing fills me with sadness but the manner of her passing fills me with fury. I honestly don't know whether I would have smothered her if I hadn't had dependent children.

I was going to say 'on a lighter note', but that's hardly the case ...
Desecrated wrote: So I don't think we have more rapists then other countries, it's just that in other countries they are usually in prison.


I had no idea about the high number of rapes in Sweden. Might one factor be a higher conviction rate, thus encouraging more victims to report their attack? I think the conviction rate is only about 10% in most of Western Europe, and that's of the cases the police decide stand a good chance.

Interesting how few situations we've been able to identify where suicide relates to personal honour or dishonour. Has the debate influenced your thoughts on the question Haelos?

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magari
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Re: Is suicide honorable?

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Spida wrote:
magari wrote: A lot of people like to point at other foreign militarys that use women in combat, I'll just remind them that there isn't another military on earth that can compete with America's, in special operations or full spectrum warfare. We do suck the big one when it comes to peacekeeping though, maybe thats where the women come in, but what does that have to do with ground combat operations?
It's funny you mention this, because with the stuff I've been watching lately. I've been a little worried about China, and their military. I'm thinking they are seriously bad ass, based on sheer numbers alone. I would love for someone to tell me different though. Russia doesn't seem to bother me as much.

Sorry to go off topic. Just wanted to sneak that by.
Defense is a multinational business. Even in WWII allied corporations were building parts for axis fighter jets and bombers.

International relations and political science is mostly based on global systems theory or what the pentagon calls "rule-sets".

The trend is democracies don't fight other democracies. WTO members also don't go to war with each other. This is mostly because societies and economies are so integrated now that crippling one tends to cripple them all. Obviously the more stable nations become the ones most of the others lean on. This was demonstrated in the financial crisis of 2008.

China and America's economies are so intimately linked now that a real war between the two would devastate both nations before the "grunts" ever got a chance to meet face to face.

War these days is generally between developed nations and radicals within developing nations who profit off the ignorance of individuals who aren't connected to the global economy. Its in the best interest of these radicals to keep people ignorant and poor. They are generally warlords who don't understand the complexities of modern civilization which take away some of their power so they resort to violence and fascism. Developing nations don't have the infrastructure or resources to feed all their people let alone educate them so they are constantly struggling with these radicals and when the majority of their population is swayed they reach out to the UN and NATO for help.

Back to defense being a multinational business; Its actually in America's interest to arm and train stable nations in defense, not only is it good business, but it prevents us from having to send our own troops because when the UN gets petitioned, America has the lion's share of the defense pie. The reality is everyone participates, but America bares the larger share of the burden due to its military's size and power. Just consider the war in Afghanistan. I can't even count the number of countries involved in one way or another... However, there are obviously more American deaths than any other.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participa ... ng_Freedom

This is way off topic, but its something I wouldn't mind continuing to discuss. Perhaps a mod could split the topic?

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Re: Is suicide honorable?

Post by Neko-phyte »

Sypheara wrote: To go back to my earlier point about the volunteering:

Volunteering is all well and good, but at the end of the day its not going to pay for:

Your rent or mortgage.
Your utility bills.
Your food.
Anything else you might require.

Therefore it is no substitute for either being employed or self employed. Whilst I agree with your deductions on the system neko, volunteering is no substitute for a job in the way the world is structured. I did volunteering for the reasons you describe - it got me no closer to living in my own property and having my own independence, despite being enjoyable and rewarding.
Absolutely--volunteering is no substitute by any means, but when even this option is becoming difficult to take then you something's real damn wrong with the system (not the only sign of course, but a big red flag nevertheless). That's the point I was trying to make.
RoseRed wrote:
Yes, it was directed at you. You and S were talking about very different times in a persons life. Why do people get so offended about being young? We all were.

No one said or implied that you're point was not valid. Sypheara's point was that someone who is at a different point in life most likely isn't going to let their family go hungry under while living in a cardboard box so the occultist can go volunteer their time. Different stages of life have different levels of responsibility. It's not personal.

The topic didn't shift to strictly anything. That's just where it was at the time. Good topics meander.

What magari wrote was beautifully poignant and brought tears to my eyes.
I'm only touchy about it in this instance because I've seen you voice irritations about teenagers and young adults a few times already now >_> Truthfully this is nothing against you though; it turns out trying to participate in forums give me as much social anxiety as my workplace does (way too much). I might go back to lurking for a while until I'm better at managing it.

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Re: Is suicide honorable?

Post by RoseRed »

That would be because I have an almost 20 year old kid who is being a typical teenage stupid-head. You are in a very different position than she is. And almost 80s year olds can be even more frustrating to deal with. Hey, Desecrated, this is what happens when you combine mundane life and occult discussion.

It's a simple fact that life experience changes perspective. I don't understand why people get all bunched up about it. Like being young is a bad thing? I'd love to be 25 again, free from the commitments I had then and enjoy being 25 without all the responsibilities of young, married, mommy-hood, etc. while I had the energy I had then.

Do you really think lurking is going to help you face or deal with this? Personally, I enjoy your perspective and truthfully, I enjoy speaking with those that are younger. You guys see the world so differently. It's easy to become jaded or cynical in the world we live in. Please don't go. If you feel something is directed at you or you're not sure now to take it - just ask, like you did. That was perfect.
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Re: Is suicide honorable?

Post by Caerdon »

Back to the main topic at hand... I think a distinction should be made between suicide and self sacrifice. Sacrificing your life for the betterment or protection of the people around you is something that is honorable and brave. Suicide on the other hand is taking your life for selfish reasons and in fact burdens those around you.
While there are examples that shows the differences to be cut and dry, I do see and admit that there are instances that are more....murkey as to which one someone may fall into.
I bring this up though because I believe it is an important aspect that hasn't been addressed yet and should be considered.

Sorry for not expanding more, I'm on my phone and am about to enter my class so had limited time, I'll talk more in detail later if needed !
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Re: Is suicide honorable?

Post by Calicifer »

Ironically, we had found out that suicide is the most powerful and efficient tool for ascension. Maybe it's our lot in life to one day commit it at the sake of greatness. As for general stance, your life is your own. You do not belong to anyone and thus you are free to do that you like. Right or wrong are just cultural delusions, they are meaningless in the end. That is most important is your will and your freedom to act as you wish.

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