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This is an entirely hypothetical post, and I'm simply trying to judge a matter of your character here.
I'd be very much obliged if you were to post your opinion here.


Please answer truthfully;

"Killing with magick is acceptable."

Answer simply with
Agree,
or,
Disagree.


I'll start;
Disagree.

Disagree

Agree or disagree. [grin]

Of course.

Until just a thousand years ago when the Church ordered them banished, it was a rather common sight to see wizards and sorcerers of all kinds working in the military. They worked magic of all kinds, from charging basic talismans to protect individual soldiers and leaders to conjuring storms that wiped away entire fleets of ships, flattened entire towns, or made the enemy army suffer on their march. They sparred as both sides tried to magically assassinate the opposing rulers, blocking and sending death spells. All the way back from the Egyptian Priesthoods up to the Kingdoms of Europe, this warrior magician was just as legitimate a career path as high priest.

The "Modern" Western Mystery Tradition has quite thoroughly whitewashed itself of this kind of "low" work, but in real world magick, things get dirty fast.



~:Shin:~

Agreed.

You may paint my character black.

Circumstances permitting, of course.

And meh.

This is a zero sum game. [greensmile]

Disagree

It is not "acceptable".

Shinichi wrote:
Until just a thousand years ago when the Church ordered them banished.

Interestingly enough, the church merely replaced them. There are several war photos of priest blessing military equipment and holding mass on the frontline. Many countries also have military chaplains serving next to the soldiers. The USA military has chaplains in the 3 big branches and they are still being deployed in modern warfare.

There is a roman quote, (that I can't remember who said) About the druids standing in the back of the Celtic army shouting curses at the Romans. A scene that was ironically repeated when the Danes invaded Britten 900 years later. It became a comon practice for the priests to walk behind the army and bless them.
And I've seen picture from D-day with Catholics swinging around big crosses and chain censers on the battlefield. (Incenses and talismans)
If that's not ancient magic, I don't know what is.

I guess at a certain point, this could get down into a "do you agree with killing in general" discussion.

I would never be employed by the military of any country, be it as a magician, soldier or otherwise.
I may garnish some hate for this comment, but I don't believe "serving your country" to be a noble or courageous thing to do. I see it as something mostly ignorant people do, and occasionally, something a suicidal person would do.
Most of the people I've met personally who joined the armed forces did so in the hopes that they'd die in combat, to save themselves the embarrassment of taking their own life.
To go to war and claim you protected anyones well being is a farce.

Motumbá Àse

I would elaborate my opinion about it, BUT as you asked to be a "yes or no" answer I would say:

"Killing with magick is acceptable" I agree

I'm just being honest

Saravá
Idansinají

WillowDarkWytch wrote:Motumbá Àse

I would elaborate my opinion about it, BUT as you asked to be a "yes or no" answer I would say:

"Killing with magick is acceptable" I agree

I'm just being honest

Saravá
Idansinají

Fair enough. I respect your decision and your response.

I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree but there's no denying it makes for some very interesting stories. Killing by magick is like carrying a revolver for your protection. You don't go around shooting people left, right, and centre but one day you might need to use it, but afterwards...? I don't think I have the wisdom to answer.

There is alot that I can say about this, justifications and such, but all it comes down to, for a pure yes or no, is that I say "Yes", it is.

Why is it? Reasons. Always there are reasons. And circumstances.

I say yes and no.

[grin]

Killing what? And acceptable to whom? Pretty vague question, given that we already make such complex determinations between justified and unjustified killing in mundane life. But since you're asking for a 100% yes or no answer:

Yes.

the_spiral wrote:Killing what? And acceptable to whom? Pretty vague question, given that we already make such complex determinations between justified and unjustified killing in mundane life. But since you're asking for a 100% yes or no answer:

Yes.

I understand there are a lot of circumstances, and this was vague. That's okay.
Everyone has answered amazingly so far.

Personally, I do not kill anything intentionally, be it for food, defense, or otherwise. I carry a self-defense weapon on my person, yet I would never use it to take a life, even if I needed to. There are other ways of stopping an attacker.
From my point of view, killing in any way, is unacceptable. Animals, Humans, Plants, Insects. All of it deserves life.

I've been watching a lot of Stargate lately, and I aspire to be like the Nox. If an enemy wishes to harm me, I would attempt to understand them better so I could sympathize with their feelings and change their mind.

And, especially with magick, there are a lot more ways of "attacking" someone that do not involve killing them.

I would honestly consider it no different than killing someone with a gun or knife, though granted its less dramatic and less likely to be a crime that would be investigated. I personally think in a perfect world, life would be respected and there wouldn't be a need to kill. However we don't live in a perfect world cow meat is tasty and as much as people like to say there is good in every one, well, yes there is good in everyone. Does that mean, however, the good outweighs the bad? If lets say The BTK killer loved his grandma and rescued puppies would that undo the bad he had done? I don't think so and because of that I would say yes killing with magick is acceptable, as acceptable as any other form of killing in that it depends on the circumstance. I would ask, is it something to be proud of? The answer to that question would say more to me about a person than the capacity of someone killing with magick.

May I now ask the following questions:

1) Who has actually killed somebody using magick? How did you do it? Why did you do it?

2) If you haven't killed with magick is there anyone you would like to 'do in' so to speak?

3) What people, individuals or even a smallish number of them, do you think magickians should kill in attempt to make this world a better place?

Thank you.

1) Who has actually killed somebody using magick? How did you do it? Why did you do it?

That's not something to be proud of, so I wouldn't brag about it, less in a forum. Of course I wouldn't tell HOW TO. Whay would I teach, in a forum, to kill by magics? I haven't done it because I haven't need it. I know people who has done it, they have been contrated to do so by clients, other time has been witch fights. There are very powerful (creating and generating things in matter, destroying too) in this world. There are spirits who would do things like that.

2) If you haven't killed with magick is there anyone you would like to 'do in' so to speak?

Nope. To want someone dead I think it's a very heavy thing. When I was younger I had an episode where I wanted someone to die, but I didn't have the knowledge nor the power/spiritual contacts to do so (thank gods!) and now I don't have the need to "try it", I have matured in that sense.

I have delt with my "enemies" very well without killing them, just hurting them if needed.

3) What people, individuals or even a smallish number of them, do you think magickians should kill in attempt to make this world a better place?

Hahahaha Donald Trump! PLEASE!!! If someone who don't care about his spiritual development is reading this, PLEASE, Donald Trump. I hate his guts! That stupid face! xDDD (IT IS A JOKE, please do not be interpreted as a real request to anyone in the forums! I feel like I need to expressly point that out LOL)

There are any number of different ways of killing somebody by magick but being aware of them and performing them are two different things. It seems to me there's no sense in ever doing anything to hurt another simply because of the inevitable backlash. Such things still make for interesting reading though. I don't have the stomach for doing anything horrible.

I thought that somebody's choice as a possible target would be a politician. They really are such utter bottom's aren't they. Trouble is, there's always more waiting in the wings. Interestingly, do you think anyone tried it with the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Chairman Mao, Pol Pot, and Idi Amin? Those guys caused so much suffering. Someone must have tried it. Why no success?

Unless I'm mistaken, most of the names you mentioned had some pretty poor and terrifying deaths.
Who's to say there was no success?

Haelios, Hitler committed suicide. Hardly that terrible an end for him. Mussolini was executed. Fair enough. But Stalin? Lived to a ripe old age. Died of a stroke. Chairman Mao? Don't know. The other two? Lost their power but certainly never suffered.

Anyway, back to the subject...WillowDarkWytch mentions knowing professional sorcerers who killed for money on behalf of clients. It is said that the client is karmically/spiritually responsible for the death but that's like saying a if a hitman kills a person they aren't to blame but the one who hired them was. What do you think.

Haelios, Hitler committed suicide. Hardly that terrible an end for him. Mussolini was executed. Fair enough. But Stalin? Lived to a ripe old age. Died of a stroke. Chairman Mao? Don't know. The other two? Lost their power but certainly never suffered.

Anyway, back to the subject...WillowDarkWytch mentions knowing professional sorcerers who killed for money on behalf of clients. It is said that the client is karmically/spiritually responsible for the death but that's like saying a if a hitman kills a person they aren't to blame but the one who hired them was. What do you think.

Haelos wrote:Personally, I do not kill anything intentionally, be it for food, defense, or otherwise. I carry a self-defense weapon on my person, yet I would never use it to take a life, even if I needed to. There are other ways of stopping an attacker.
From my point of view, killing in any way, is unacceptable. Animals, Humans, Plants, Insects. All of it deserves life.

I want to respond to this because it's an interesting point. First, I respect your position. Ahimsa/nonviolence is an austere path to walk but brings enormous spiritual gifts.

But personally, the one thing I could never get my head around is the idea that everything deserves life. Not that I don't agree; it just doesn't compute for me. What does "deserve" mean in this context? Everything that is alive has life, sure. It is also guaranteed a death, and usually not a peaceful one. And death is a crucial part of the cycle that sustains Life as a whole. Unless you've figured out a way to live on air, you're constantly killing things to sustain your own life. Everything is. Even if you're a vegetarian, if you spend enough time around plants you'll see they cling as tightly to their lives as anything else does. And every time you take a shower or clean your house or weed your garden or walk on a sidewalk, you snuff out living things who "deserve" life as much as you do. So the question for me isn't whether killing is acceptable or not. It's a non-issue. Killing is built into the biological system we call Life. It's a feature, not a bug. We have to accept it, at least in order to exist on this plane.

So to me the question isn't if it's acceptable to kill, but when. Some people create hierarchical systems: it's okay to kill plants and animals, but not humans. Seems pretty arbitrary to me but okay. Others make a distinction between killing that supports Life versus killing that destroys it. So it's okay to kill for survival or self-defense, but not for thrills or revenge. But our histories are full of people who claimed, convinced others, and maybe even honestly believed their reasons for killing were acceptable and necessary, who the world regarded as psychopathic monsters in hindsight. We've invented all sorts of complicated legal, moral and political litmus tests over millennia to distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable killing. It's one of the fundamental questions of life and it's by no means a "yes or no" issue for me.

But whatever stance you take on the issue, I don't think there's much difference between killing using magick and any other method of killing. Murder is murder. So if you believe it's wrong to kill people who harm you with a gun, I don't see why using a curse should be any different.

Anyway, great question [smile]

Only in self-defence, for food when I'm about to starve and to save the life of another. I make no distinctions between humans and animsl because humans are in my opinion nothing more but evolved apes.

That's my simple answer but the_spiral brings up many points to be taken into account.

I was going to leave this be, but there have been too many good responses.

I'd like to point out that I do not agree that everything deserves life. I simply believe that humans shouldn't have the right to take it.
The distinction I draw is between consciousness. Humans are conscious, and thus, there is no excuse for us killing another living creature. We can live without consuming animals, and we can consume from plants without killing them.

Accidentally stepping on an ant is different. Most deaths that happen are result of 'unconsciousness.' I can't blame someone who didn't even know the ant was there in the first place.

Animals, on the other hand, are unconscious and primal, and are ruled by instinct and self-preservation. The same goes for any entity that isn't tetrapolar in nature. This beings don't even have the chance to think for themselves, as we do.

For humans, who can make (somewhat) rational decisions, I find there to be no excuse to take a life of any kind. All Death "deserves" to come naturally, through unconsciousness.