(Discussion) Suicide Cults

[equalavor]

Purely ethical discussion, let's not delve this into a debate or argument.

What do the members here think of all those crazy suicide cults that ran about during the 70s-90s?

I've been watching some of Heaven's Gate's videos, and while the man makes some amazingly bold claims, I find his logic interesting.
His talk about Earth being "Recycled" seems to fit into all that astrological mumbo jumbo about the New Age, and such other lines of reasoning. It's also intersting to note that in most mythologies that believe in reincarnation, suicide causes you to "stop" your path in the cycle until you can relearn lessons you would have learned in the previous life.

Considering all the stuff that was going on at the time, and the things that have been happening since in our world, is it so hard to believe that they really did get out, to a temporary better place? They can always pick up where they left off, I assume.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on it. Did they do they right thing? Or were these people simply pawns in some tired worldly scheme, that had run its course?
I think discussions like this could rage on for weeks.
It's intersting that there aren't so many obvious cults as there once was. Now the entire internet is a cult.

[Desecrated]

His talk about Earth being "Recycled" seems to fit into all that astrological mumbo jumbo about the New Age, and such other lines of reasoning.

Exactly. It is the mumbo jumbo of these traditions that are picked up. Only the shallow and superficial elements.

It's also intersting to note that in most mythologies that believe in reincarnation, suicide causes you to "stop" your path in the cycle until you can relearn lessons you would have learned in the previous life.

Considering all the stuff that was going on at the time, and the things that have been happening since in our world, is it so hard to believe that they really did get out, to a temporary better place? They can always pick up where they left off, I assume.

Reincarnation isn't YOU being reborn, it is the essence of you being reborn. Different system has different views on karma. If you read the original Buddhist text Karma is more of a concept and this is carried on in most tantric traditions as well. But in folk traditions, like the later stories about buddha, your past life seems to take a larger part in your recent life.
But it wouldn't be just picking up were you left off. You would have to reset, do everything again, BUT with the added karma of your previous failed life.
So it's actually a step backwards.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on it. Did they do they right thing?

Right?, Wrong? Fuck If I know...
Dying for religious causes is nothing new, I'm sure they were happy about their decision. I really don't care.

Or were these people simply pawns in some tired worldly scheme, that had run its course?

The biggest mistake we do in religious studies is that we always see it from the outside. We put labels and terms on something from our perspective, and don't try hard enough to understand it from their perspective.
Especially among the modern scholars there is a tendency to write off all religious "eccentricity/weirdness" as just manifestations of stupidity, superstition and ignorance.
A lot of the people involved with sects and cults are intelligent people. We might think of them as mislead and corrupted. But they knew what they were doing. They knew what they got themselves into.

However, my generation were a lot more naive then what came after.
If anything is going to change in this world it's probably going to be because more information is around now. Back in the 60's people had no fucking sense about anything. Like nobody even thought about common household items being bad. Now people are afraid of microwaves, mobile phones and the government.
We didn't know that asbestos was fucking death and spraying plants with poison was a bad idea.
IT was the age of ignorance. I was 18 in 1969. Last year of college, summer of love. We were invincible. we were going to change the world, free love was going to save us all. Nobody knew about aids or drug abuse or anything like that. we all thought that we were immortals.
There was a feeling that everything was about to change, and maybe everything had to change. And we were a lot more open to new ideas, and open to try new things.
And there was an enthusiasm that I don't see today. That can be blinding. But it's not moving to the fucking jungle blinding. If you go that far, you are responsibly for your own actions. I don't care how charismatic a leader is, or how damaged you are. The human selfpreservation is stronger than that. Committing suicide is not as easy as some people think it is. You have to be deadly serious about it (pardon the pun)

What becomes scary with something like jonestown, is of course that children were involved. I don't think we can put the same blame on them. And honestly, they were killed. That wasn't suicide, that was murder.

It's intersting that there aren't so many obvious cults as there once was.

Drugs.
A lot of the alternative spirituality back in the 60's and 70's were heavily influenced by drugs.
A lot of 90's and onward spirituality are health obsessed.
From a scientific point of view, people wo do positive thinking, detox, herbal tea and yoga are just as delusional as "aliens are coming to get us"-cults. But nowadays, they don't eat LSD for breakfast.

But I kinda disagree a little bit. Because there are a lot of sects still around today, and thanks to the internet they are growing in number.

Now the entire internet is a cult.

No.

[TruthSeeker_]

Here in Canada we had the Order of the Solar Temple (OTS) in the 90s built around Luc Jouret and Jospeh Di Membro as a self-proclaimed esoteric order which eventually degenerated into a crazy suicide cult. It made 74 victims. These people believed that their spirits would travel to a new planet and reincarnate there to live prosperous lives. They were deluded and really, not much would dissuade them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Solar_Temple

[equalavor]

His talk about Earth being "Recycled" seems to fit into all that astrological mumbo jumbo about the New Age, and such other lines of reasoning.

Exactly. It is the mumbo jumbo of these traditions that are picked up. Only the shallow and superficial elements.

It's also intersting to note that in most mythologies that believe in reincarnation, suicide causes you to "stop" your path in the cycle until you can relearn lessons you would have learned in the previous life.

Considering all the stuff that was going on at the time, and the things that have been happening since in our world, is it so hard to believe that they really did get out, to a temporary better place? They can always pick up where they left off, I assume.

Reincarnation isn't YOU being reborn, it is the essence of you being reborn. Different system has different views on karma. If you read the original Buddhist text Karma is more of a concept and this is carried on in most tantric traditions as well. But in folk traditions, like the later stories about buddha, your past life seems to take a larger part in your recent life.
But it wouldn't be just picking up were you left off. You would have to reset, do everything again, BUT with the added karma of your previous failed life.
So it's actually a step backwards.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on it. Did they do they right thing?

Right?, Wrong? Fuck If I know...
Dying for religious causes is nothing new, I'm sure they were happy about their decision. I really don't care.

Or were these people simply pawns in some tired worldly scheme, that had run its course?

The biggest mistake we do in religious studies is that we always see it from the outside. We put labels and terms on something from our perspective, and don't try hard enough to understand it from their perspective.
Especially among the modern scholars there is a tendency to write off all religious "eccentricity/weirdness" as just manifestations of stupidity, superstition and ignorance.
A lot of the people involved with sects and cults are intelligent people. We might think of them as mislead and corrupted. But they knew what they were doing. They knew what they got themselves into.

However, my generation were a lot more naive then what came after.
If anything is going to change in this world it's probably going to be because more information is around now. Back in the 60's people had no fucking sense about anything. Like nobody even thought about common household items being bad. Now people are afraid of microwaves, mobile phones and the government.
We didn't know that asbestos was fucking death and spraying plants with poison was a bad idea.
IT was the age of ignorance. I was 18 in 1969. Last year of college, summer of love. We were invincible. we were going to change the world, free love was going to save us all. Nobody knew about aids or drug abuse or anything like that. we all thought that we were immortals.
There was a feeling that everything was about to change, and maybe everything had to change. And we were a lot more open to new ideas, and open to try new things.
And there was an enthusiasm that I don't see today. That can be blinding. But it's not moving to the fucking jungle blinding. If you go that far, you are responsibly for your own actions. I don't care how charismatic a leader is, or how damaged you are. The human selfpreservation is stronger than that. Committing suicide is not as easy as some people think it is. You have to be deadly serious about it (pardon the pun)

What becomes scary with something like jonestown, is of course that children were involved. I don't think we can put the same blame on them. And honestly, they were killed. That wasn't suicide, that was murder.

It's intersting that there aren't so many obvious cults as there once was.

Drugs.
A lot of the alternative spirituality back in the 60's and 70's were heavily influenced by drugs.
A lot of 90's and onward spirituality are health obsessed.
From a scientific point of view, people wo do positive thinking, detox, herbal tea and yoga are just as delusional as "aliens are coming to get us"-cults. But nowadays, they don't eat LSD for breakfast.

But I kinda disagree a little bit. Because there are a lot of sects still around today, and thanks to the internet they are growing in number.

Now the entire internet is a cult.

No.

The tone of your post is exactly what I was trying to avoid here.
With what little information I gave, it was surely a gross under-representation of the full level of ideas here.
Thank you for your insightful replies.

[Desecrated]

The tone of your post is exactly what I was trying to avoid here.

I can't communicate the way you want, I can only communicate the way I do.

[Nahemah]

I think Des's post is fine here. It's informative, from a member of the generation who experienced a lot of these cults starting up.

I'm a child of the seventies, the generation who grew up to catch aids and attempt to protest and get rid of the proliferation of nukes, we were the cold war kids, the jilted generation. The first victims of Neoliberalism, lol. But seriously.

I think cults draw from the discontent and fear in the world, there is no one form of cult, the religious are the best known but there are other forms too.

[fraterai]

I would have to agree with Des as well in the sense that it would not be a "pause" but a definite step backwards for most or all of these individuals; but I will add a bit more of what I think you may be able to agree with. I believe it would take an extremely developed individual to have any amount of control over their "astral afterlife", and I think you would find this to be stated as fact by many "Initiates" in many occult circles. I am curious as to why you think killing yourself would allow you to take an astral vacation, when so many of the most common schools on reincarnation talk about it being a bad idea.

[equalavor]

I don't know how people can pull so much out of their ass in response to something asking your simple, non-biased opinion.
If there was a point, you missed it.

[Nahemah]

The tone of your post is exactly what I was trying to avoid here.

Oh really.

Tone policing?

Don't think so. Not your job here. And you don't get to dictate what gets posted or by whom or where.

There is no such thing as an 'unbiased' opinion', there are balanced views and there are those who are certain of what they believe and there are informed opinions and uniformed or half formed opinions. Opinions are like arseholes, after all, everybody has one. However, you don't get to decide if another member's opinion is valid, or whether it is suitable for posting on this forum.

( context to below: abusive post copied/ removed and infractions issued)

Bye again and lol. Thanks for playing.

Civil discussion may now resume if there is still interest in this topic.

Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.

[Desecrated]

I don't know how people can pull so much out of their ass in response to something asking your simple, non-biased opinion.
If there was a point, you missed it.

Then try again. Make it even simpler and harder to misunderstand.