OTO Lecture: Scientific Approach to Magick

[Desecrated]

A thelemist tries to explain science to other thelemists. It's somewhat amusing to watch.

[chowderpope]

There's a local OTO camp in my town that I was thinking of getting involved with, but I'm not sure that I actually trust Crowley as a teacher, so how could I trust an entire system based on his teachings?

Crowley claims he was possessed by an angel when he had certain revelations and wrote a book, but I don't actually think that any benevolent being would possess a person for that reason. I think he was either fooling himself, fooling others, or being fooled.

[Desecrated]

There's a local OTO camp in my town that I was thinking of getting involved with, but I'm not sure that I actually trust Crowley as a teacher, so how could I trust an entire system based on his teachings?

Crowley claims he was possessed by an angel when he had certain revelations and wrote a book, but I don't actually think that any benevolent being would possess a person for that reason. I think he was either fooling himself, fooling others, or being fooled.

Crowley was a mentally-ill drug addict who spent most of his life trying to punish himself so that he could punish his dead parents the way they had punished him when he was a child. He was also a criminal, a fraud and an compulsive liar.

OTO was not founded by Crowley, although he did influence a lot of the organization. And I think some modern OTO members are very much aware of his nonsense and are trying to change.
It's also important to remember that OTO has several sub-organizations within it and the whole system is stupidly complex. It's very hard to pinpoint exactly who they are and what they stand for.

So the absolute easiest thing to do is to go over there and check it out for yourself.
(Just don't eat or drink anything they offer you)

[Kami]

I'm not sure that I actually trust Crowley as a teacher, so how could I trust an entire system based on his teachings?

Crowley claims he was possessed by an angel when he had certain revelations and wrote a book, but I don't actually think that any benevolent being would possess a person for that reason. I think he was either fooling himself, fooling others, or being fooled.

Desecrated is right and also take the advice and be safe if you do attend any cult camps.

I still struggle with the idea of spirits.

I have had my silly moments here on this forum, but I'm serious about the things I have experienced and learned.

What messes with me is the difficulty that arises when trying to figure out whether if there really is a spirit in the room or if it's just my imagination.

In other words - I can't know if it is a force just on the other side of my five senses - or if it is just my unconscious mind using my thought forms as a puppet via my subconscious.

Still tryna learn from every lecture I can find on youtube on the subject of the occult.

I'll be honest, sometimes I'll learn a whole lot or I'll only get one or maybe two things out of the entire lecture.

It's a fun journey.

One thing I can't do is to not mix a little bit of science with my theories and or guesses.

My foundation is mostly science.

Everything else I talk about like my philosophical perspectives or my ideas - experiences and or accidental ones, so on and so forth, is not my foundation.

I have faith that the road I'm on is the right road.

This might sound silly but ever since that dream I had about walking the path of the serpent where once I reached the head of the serpent path my eyes would glow like the sun in enlightenment.

My own truth I suppose.

Can't impose anything on anyone - but it's how we talk sometimes. : p

...

Off topic, how have you been? [happy2]

[Desecrated]

[
What messes with me is the difficulty that arises when trying to figure out whether if there really is a spirit in the room or if it's just my imagination.

How do you tell the difference between a dream and a memory?

[Nahemah]

Desecrated is sailing perilously close to paradigm bashing and Crowley did very well for himself, despite being an, ahem...'mentally ill drug addict' as has been stated in this thread.

Thelemites prefer to be called Thelemite, not Thelemist, so there's that too.

If you want to know anything about Thelema or the OTO, you could always try looking them up, rather than relying on third party information:

This may help, for a start:

http://oto-usa.org/thelema/

http://oto-usa.org/oto/history/

http://oto-usa.org/thelema/crowley/

I get on rather well with Thelemite/ OTO folks, I find them to be generally honest and happy to discuss aspects of their practices and beliefs and they don't sugar coat or bullshit about it either.

The EGC, or Ecclestiastica Gnostica Catholica may also give you some interesting reading:

https://www.oto-uk.org/egchome.html

[Kami]

[
What messes with me is the difficulty that arises when trying to figure out whether if there really is a spirit in the room or if it's just my imagination.

How do you tell the difference between a dream and a memory?

Very good question.

I had to google this but with no good answers in the results.

I think that there's a difference between intending for something to appear and then something appearing without intention.

But here's where dreaming gets weird.

A lot of the time we have a feeling in the background that we're not aware of which usually links us to the memory of a day or event in time that was highly impressionable that created that feeling.

The hidden feeling itself usually determines which memories get recalled and or mixed with other memories.

The last thing I think about before sleeping - is what I'll be dreaming about, that I know.

I didn't want to believe it was possible but my friend told me that the last thing you think about right before falling sleep is what youll be experiencing in the dream world.

She says that's how meditations for her start off.

So I took a note of it.

On google I saw this energy-visualization-exercise and I tried it but it didn't work.

But little did I know I was still doing the exercise as I was falling asleep - and on the verge of dreaming.

The exercise:

I did that while falling asleep *which wasn't my intention to fall asleep*.

Side note:

My intention was to see if I could focus hard enough to perceive this mental energy similarly to how Nikola Tesla was able to perceive his ideas as if they were an augmented reality through his eyes.

Nothing happened of course, I got tired from just laying down and performing this exercise.

Suddenly I was dreaming and I'm not sure if it was a lucid one - maybe partially.

In the dream I was still performing the same exercise but with a twist, I could see the energy sword!

It came out of my fingers by half of a foot and it was blue for some reason.

Maybe I wanted it blue - I just can't remember.

So I had the energy sword going into and back out of my left hand.

I could feel the energy penetrating, it was weird to say the least.

So what's the difference between dreaming and a memory?

I still cannot answer that without saying that they're the same - as it appears to be.

But I feel that maybe they're not - because in a lucid dream you can change it all up from a memory to whatever you want.

But then I can say that even intention is used with memory.

For example: (Everything we know is but a memory and our "will" is our intention.)

What is your answer?

You got me all curious. XD

[Desecrated]

Desecrated is sailing perilously close to paradigm bashing and Crowley did very well for himself, despite being an, ahem...'mentally ill drug addict' as has been stated in this thread.

Thelemites prefer to be called Thelemite, not Thelemist, so there's that too.

If you want to know anything about Thelema or the OTO, you could always try looking them up, rather than relying on third party information:

I get on rather well with Thelemite/ OTO folks, I find them to be generally honest and happy to discuss aspects of their practices and beliefs and they don't sugar coat or bullshit about it either.

There is a lot of mentally ill drug addicts who have done very well for themselves. Calling Crowley that is not bashing, it's a well documented fact, and I can even link you sources of thelemites talking about this.
And you are a fucking hypocrite if you think you can bash 'joy of satan' the way you do and than call out others.

" Thelemite, not Thelemist,"
Honest mistake on my part. I'll use the correct term in the future.

The video that I linked is from an actual OTO seminar by "center of Thelemic culture, and serve as a repository of the knowledge, creativity, and joy that occurs at Blazing Star Oasis, OTO." The guy holding the lecture is IAO131. He is a fairly well respected Thelemite, author and lecturer.
That is not a third party source.

NOW, I gave my opinion on Crowley, and some information or opinions on OTO, but I did also say that the guy/girl asking should visit it himself. So you can't really say that I'm not recommending going to a first party source.
Or that I'm bashing the organization in it's current state. In fact, I even think I made it fairly clear that I see a difference in the organization and Crowley. Which was good information, since the person asked about the organization but was doubtful about Crowley.

Honestly, you are so fucking sensitive and over-reactive when you think somebody is doing something that you don't agree with, that it's damn near impossible to exist on this forum without stepping on your toes from time to time.
You want to criticize my view on crowley, come at me with some fact and not just thinly veiled threats
and a smirky attitude.

[Desecrated]

What is your answer?

You got me all curious. XD

I have no idea.
That is why I thought it was a good question.

[Nahemah]

Aye right Des.

You criticise everything, but it's never from an informed standpoint, you use abusive terms and react badly every time you are pulled up for this.

Enough already.

We do not uphold any one belief set or paradigm over any other here and the problem you have is that you go wading in despite knowing this fact. Go ahead and call me unreasonable, because that's easy enough to do for you.

You break the posting rules repeatedly and whine about it when you're called on it.

The information I posted is reasonable and actually relates to the OTO and Thelema, it gives useful info for anyone who is curious and it is for the reader to decide for themselves, once informed what they think about it.

Crowley was fundamental to the origins and publisicing of Thelema and OTO, but larger than life characters do not define what evolved out of their ideas.

How dare I correct you, how dare I indeed. I dare as it's part of the job of managing the forum. Perhaps the 'over sensitivity' as you called it, is required here due to the recent behaviour you displayed elsewhere on the forum. The only reason you escaped sanction on Napoli's thread is because she is the better person and decided to accept your apology in good faith.

I'm sure you'll have something else condescending and manipulative to add here, so go ahead do your best.

My skin is thicker than you think it is and the personal insults and claims are quite amusing, if unoriginal.

There are a metric fuckton of shit sites where it's fine to be a bully and ride roughshod over members you perceive as 'unintelligent, this is not one of them.

Be assured also that the thread where you try to define intelligence as one dimensional will be responded to, now I've gathered the research to refute you.

I'm letting you have a free go here, so come at me bro' ...

[chowderpope]

Uh I'm a guy and you can call me chowder or chowderpope. Jeez it's not like I don't post every day.

This feels much like an argument between family members. The OTO actually seem pretty cool. The chapter in my town is seemed to be based heavily on Crowley's augmentation of the group, and I really don't trust anyone who claims to channel benevolent spirits so I probably won't be visiting.

[Napoli]

This feels much like an argument between family members.

I agree. Nahemah and Desecrated are two of my most beloved OF members.

[Desecrated]

There are a metric fuckton of shit sites where it's fine to be a bully and ride roughshod over members you perceive as 'unintelligent, this is not one of them.

Be assured also that the thread where you try to define intelligence as one dimensional will be responded to, now I've gathered the research to refute you.

I'm letting you have a free go here, so come at me bro' ...

My main issue isn't that you disagree with what I say, (I disagree with some of the things I say.) But I hate when you tell others what and how they are allow to post.

I'm not whining about your decisions, I'm disagreeing with them. You're a bad admin and many advanced users have left because they can't deal with you.

If you perceive my posts about intelligence/reason as one-dimensional it's because they are meant for elementary students. They are sort of "introduction" to something, so yes, they are oversimplified.
And I've never claimed to be intelligent.
The fact that I'm arguing with you is clear evidence that I'm not.

[violetstar]

@Nahemeh

You are the problem.Using your Admin rights to exhibit your big ego makes you nothing more than a bully.This is why I do not post here any more as I feel I am treading on eggshells in case you nit-pick anything I say-and you criticize Desecrated!

I am speaking for others here who contacted me but fear any challenge to you will meet with a ban or belittlement in public.

I do not have that fear so you bring it on.

[violetstar]

Desecrated is sailing perilously close to paradigm bashing and Crowley did very well for himself, despite being an, ahem...'mentally ill drug addict' as has been stated in this thread.

Thelemites prefer to be called Thelemite, not Thelemist, so there's that too.

If you want to know anything about Thelema or the OTO, you could always try looking them up, rather than relying on third party information:

This may help, for a start:

http://oto-usa.org/thelema/

http://oto-usa.org/oto/history/

http://oto-usa.org/thelema/crowley/


I get on rather well with Thelemite/ OTO folks, I find them to be generally honest and happy to discuss aspects of their practices and beliefs and they don't sugar coat or bullshit about it either.

The EGC, or Ecclestiastica Gnostica Catholica may also give you some interesting reading:

https://www.oto-uk.org/egchome.html

...and Crowley did very well for himself.Do you define being penniless and living in a squalor as success?His failure was not entirely due to drug addiction but also the flawed material he paraded around as fact.Even his use of Magick with a K was the result of his acceptance of mistranslated Latin from Agrippas Occult Philosophy.

[inMalkuth]

hey heres what you said:

Crowley was a mentally-ill drug addict who spent most of his life trying to punish himself so that he could punish his dead parents the way they had punished him when he was a child. He was also a criminal, a fraud and an compulsive liar.

Since you began with saying Crowley was a mentally ill drug addict who was only out to punish people and then call him a fraud, liar and criminal I would also arrive at the assumption that you were smearing him totally, unless you find that criminals and liars are good traits in people?

Anyways... What Ive discovered after an awful lot of contemplating is that the Law of Thelema and the OTO are standing on all our sides, and are defending our liberty. Without this opportunity to discover we would be trapped in the confines of whatever limited view we possessed. He is saying that we have the inborn right to do what we want and he encourages us to use this right to discover who we are, what we believe and what our will is. Thats it basically, thats his goal. He spent his life compiling every conceivable mystical and magickal idea and spent his small fortune on spreading these ideas so we would all have access to them. He was totally and utterly committed to preserving your liberty and you would choose to call him a liar? I dont blame you because I have had my fair share of arguments over this and he himself says in magick without tears that he has a difficult time understanding this liberty fully.

The system of the grades is difficult to comprehend but not impossible. I found it very useful in guiding me as a solitary practitioner in the ways of understanding this path that I am on. I cant say that I accomplished these grades in person because I dont have access to a lodge, but in my own way I took this test, and am still taking it. It is his way of guiding our minds towards what we think is best.

[inMalkuth]

Liberty is the opportunity to invent, to explore, to discover

[Desecrated]

Since you began with saying Crowley was a mentally ill drug addict who was only out to punish people and then call him a fraud, liar and criminal I would also arrive at the assumption that you were smearing him totally, unless you find that criminals and liars are good traits in people?

Not "only out". "Mostly out".

I'm not smearing him. I am stating facts.
There are several biographies made about Crowley. There are several court cases you can look at, there are hundreds of interviews and probably thousands of articles (many written by himself).

And once again. I made the distinction between Crowley and OTO. They are not the same.

[Desecrated]

you use abusive terms and react badly every time you are pulled up for this.

That is the real problem isn't it. You react to how I say things, not what I'm saying.
If I said that chowderpope was a faggot, you would get pissed.
But if I said that chowderpope was a homosexual (because he is dating other men), that would be okay.

One of the times I was banned was because somebody asked about what I would have done if I was at the island during the Breivik massacre, and I said "hide behind a fat kid".
And you banned me for discriminating against obese people.
If I had said "hide behind a rock", or "hide behind a large group of people" you would have been okay with that, but you saw the word "fat" and you reacted.

It's the same with the article about dealing with unintelligent people. You didn't get mad at the methods mention in the article. You didn't disagree with the methods. If I had copied it and changed the title to "how to deal with JOS member", it would have been okay. But you got your panties in a bunch because you objected to the idea of some people seeing other people as "less". It wasn't what was said in the article, it was the idea behind it (as you perceived it).

So what is it this time? I can't say "mentally ill" or "drug addict" anymore. Is this a more politicly correct term for that? Or is the idea of mental illness somewhat offensive to you now?

Or is this outbreak of yours completely in response to the other thread, where I actually did something wrong. Because if you want to ban me for calling her a "stupid fucking fuck". I would agree with that, that is clearly against the forum rules.
But this thread? Not really... There was nothing that called for your intervening here. In fact, it clearly just made things worse.

[Cerber]

And once again. I made the distinction between Crowley and OTO. They are not the same.

True that, one is just an infected person, another is an infestation on the lose. Very different things.