Moral men and women will deny women equal rights.

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Greatest I am
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Re: Moral men and women will deny women equal rights.

Post by Greatest I am »

Moth wrote:I always thought of morals as limitations society places on you, whilst principles are limitations you place on yourself.
Both are codes of conduct regardless of voluntary or imposed and are both conscidered worthy by most I think.

But then again, I am French and will not debate the semantics or use of the English language too strenuously.
I am not ignorant of English and it's use but am not versed on all the far reaching nuances.

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DL

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Re: Moral men and women will deny women equal rights.

Post by Nahemah »

Strong will always over power the weak, and the smart will always over power the strong. --Mike Tyson
The thoughts of a man who is physically stronger than most other men,never mind women and children. [tongue]
..But then again, I am French and will not debate the semantics or use of the English language too strenuously.
I am not ignorant of English and it's use but am not versed on all the far reaching nuances.

...Yet you are coherent enough to offer insults instead of counterpoints, in response to refuation. [rofl]
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Re: Moral men and women will deny women equal rights.

Post by Jack-o-diamonds »

greatest, your thoughts seem pretty dated. how old are you?

edit: not that i contribute to ageism [tongue] not that that matters in a sexist thread.
"oh, thou clear spirit, of thy fire thou madest me, and like a true child of fire, i breathe it back to thee."

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Re: Moral men and women will deny women equal rights.

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Jack-o-diamonds wrote:greatest, your thoughts seem pretty dated. how old are you?

edit: not that i contribute to ageism [tongue] not that that matters in a sexist thread.
I am older than Captain Coward and put women above me rather than below me.



Sanctity vs sanctimony ...

equalitarianism vs egalitarianism. These are not identical pairs of words, but synonyms with significant differences. A more stark division is between the gentleman and the cad. So I can support sanctity, egalitarianism and genteel behavior ... and an atheist can at least support the second two. But I can't support sanctimoniousness, or equalitarianism (often found in liberal and feminist politics) or boorish behavior.

A gentleman considers it his greatest privilege to take care of women and children. A gentlewoman considers it her greatest privilege to take care of men and children. Notice in both cases the selfish ego is suppressed. Notice also there is no need for an imaginary equivalence between men and women, as if they were a single gender. Notice that caring isn't a burden, though the wealthy consider it so ... but then all misers feel that way even at Christmas.

It is true that women are essential, and you can tell the quality of a civilization by how it treats its women, but even more how it treats its children. One has to conclude that human beings aren't very civilized yet ;-( I would like men to be treated well also, but without women and children being treated well, there isn't much point in having a society, as opposed to a troop of vicious baboons.

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DL

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Re: Moral men and women will deny women equal rights.

Post by Jack-o-diamonds »

Greatest I am wrote:
Jack-o-diamonds wrote:greatest, your thoughts seem pretty dated. how old are you?

edit: not that i contribute to ageism [tongue] not that that matters in a sexist thread.
I am older than Captain Coward and put women above me rather than below me.



Sanctity vs sanctimony ...

equalitarianism vs egalitarianism. These are not identical pairs of words, but synonyms with significant differences. A more stark division is between the gentleman and the cad. So I can support sanctity, egalitarianism and genteel behavior ... and an atheist can at least support the second two. But I can't support sanctimoniousness, or equalitarianism (often found in liberal and feminist politics) or boorish behavior.

A gentleman considers it his greatest privilege to take care of women and children. A gentlewoman considers it her greatest privilege to take care of men and children. Notice in both cases the selfish ego is suppressed. Notice also there is no need for an imaginary equivalence between men and women, as if they were a single gender. Notice that caring isn't a burden, though the wealthy consider it so ... but then all misers feel that way even at Christmas.

It is true that women are essential, and you can tell the quality of a civilization by how it treats its women, but even more how it treats its children. One has to conclude that human beings aren't very civilized yet ;-( I would like men to be treated well also, but without women and children being treated well, there isn't much point in having a society, as opposed to a troop of vicious baboons.

Regards
DL
i'm not saying that your opinion is not valid. you are entitled to your own opinion and, though it may upset me and most other women, you are logical with your thoughts.

i am still curious tho as to your age, so i might be able to understand some things better.

i'm just saying... if you're like 19 it'll blow my mind.
"oh, thou clear spirit, of thy fire thou madest me, and like a true child of fire, i breathe it back to thee."

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Re: Moral men and women will deny women equal rights.

Post by Greatest I am »

While I am here, I will post this bit on the topic and morality/duty of all of us, male or female.

In species where the young need parental care, it is given or the species would die out. That makes care of the young rule number one. Rule number two would be to care for those that children rely on for care the most and that would be women. First while carrying the baby and secondly, under whatever conditions are around, to feed it. Note that in some countries, milk, other than the mothers is sometimes rare.

Note also that in most animal species where the male is the larger and stronger, like ours, the males are always first to protect the offspring and females be they pregnant or not.

I am 62 years of age with 4 boys/men who place their children and women above themselves.

None belong to the Captain Coward fan club.

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DL



Regards

DL

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Re: Moral men and women will deny women equal rights.

Post by QofDeath »

This sort of thinking is inherently odd to me. How, exactly can a person be considered more valuable than another based on sex, rather than virtue of thought or deed?

The thing is, any civilized man will hold women in higher esteem than other men almost all of the time, but that's behavioral evolution at work.

Cavewoman weak, caveman strong, protect cavewoman!

These days, in most places that aren't 3rd world, there is no use for this dynamic anymore since we tend to decide things with our minds rather than our fists. Women and men can be equally rational and intelligent. They can both come up with good ideas that can better serve society. Indeed, for society to move forward rather than into self destruction, we must accept both men and women as equals, just as we must accept people of all races. We are all human. If we could just get that simple simple concept inside of our heads, we would have a hell of a lot less conflict and confusion. Men and women have plenty of inherent differences beyond the obvious physical ones, a lot of biological programming that probably won't change anytime soon. Generally if you put the ideas of men and women together and work with them both you come to a compromise that is vastly more agreeable to everyone in the room than one side or the other. This is what is needed. Women should not be considered any more valuable than men and vice-verse. Sadly, reality being what it is, we have a world where most of our "rulers" are men, and we still think with plenty of backwards ideology. Like I keep saying, lots of biological programming that won't change anytime soon. We are still quite primitive as a species, still little more than monkeys that figured out how to use fire creatively. I fear we will sooner blanket the world in said fire and kill ourselves off before we do any real meaningful work on that programming, but hey, that's just sort of how I see it right now, what with My dear country America deciding that instead of following it's own rules, it's gonna try it's hand at exactly what It was formed to prevent. Power corrupts. This seems to be the rule rather than the exception, so if women had the power they'd probably just end up corrupt, and that wouldn't be all that good for anyone. Equality is the only way we can all live in peace and move forward as a species as a whole. Balance. Balance is the most important thing of all things. This is the only acceptable, logical conclusion.
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Re: Moral men and women will deny women equal rights.

Post by Greatest I am »

Any good policy will be good for the one and good for the many.
Do you agree?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa6c3OTr6yA

You say that all are equal.

A hypothetical might shed light on whether that is true or not in terms of survival, which I class as a moral principle.

If for some reason there could only be one human chosen to repopulate the world after some imaginary disaster, are all equal to the task?

No. Only a pregnant woman would be able to reboot the species. Of course, the child in the womb would need to be a male. This indicates that to serve the needs of the one, who wants to become many, a pregnant female is the best choice.

If not pregnant.
If there was only two people to be chosen to be saved, then either a productive man and woman or a woman and male child would be the best choice. In terms of duty to protect, the man would have to take the lead in protecting the female, be she pregnant or not, as she must live if the species is to have the best chance to grow.
Not to get gory here but a woman can use a newly dead man and reboot the population alone whereas a man cannot in any way use a dead woman.

If in our scenario 3 or more are chosen to live, the ratio should always favor the female.

Do you still think that all are equal?

If not, then you recognize what is good for the one. It follows then that what is good for the one is good for the many. The ancients knew this and that is likely why they allowed themselves multiple wives. As resources and populations increased, that perceived need or want disappeared. Almost.

Woman's womb and breasts makes her more valuable than a man. This serves man well as he, being more aggressive and sexually demanding than women, generally speaking, is why he instinctively knows that he is to be the protector and bend the knee to woman and elevate her to the top of society.

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DL

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Re: Moral men and women will deny women equal rights.

Post by QofDeath »

In such a hypothetical, sure a pregnant female would have more inherent value than a single male.

It's not a terribly likely scenario however, and when you must boil down your argument to the point that we are at the most extreme and improbable of situations, you have already lost your argument. If one was to do that, they can almost always fabricate a situation where x is better than y, just as you have in your above example. Such gross over-simplifications are not very suitable for intelligent debate, as they offer very little, if nothing, to the intellectual mass of the debate, and merely serve to bolster one sides ego, while attempting to attack the other sides.

My argument is as simple as this: You need 2 halves to make a whole. A woman cannot copulate without a man, therefore both are needed and are equally important to the species as a whole. Instead of trying to figure out which half of human is better, why not try accepting them all? This can only lead to spiritual growth for the individual, and advancement of the species if accepted by the masses. Just because the human is constantly at war with himself does not mean it should be that way.
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Re: Moral men and women will deny women equal rights.

Post by Greatest I am »

Huh? War?

You should remember that a society is based on a bunch of sub groups as described above getting together and forming a larger one. I have shown the best conditions for the one sub group. If you have a better one then put it forward and stop bitching.

What is good for the one, is good for the many.

Remember the 80/20 rule.
I took care of the 80 and the 20 is where the devil is in the details and there are some instances where the best shown above could be reversed depending on the age of the offspring and the condition of the males and females.

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DL

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Re: Moral men and women will deny women equal rights.

Post by QofDeath »

:Begin insulting Troll section"
Lol now I understand why this was discarded into the troll pit. Someone confronts you with simple, logical arguments, and you proceed to become immature and also to contradict your own arguments. I Was hoping for an honest to goodness debate of ideas. Nothing of the sort can be had when your opponent acts like a child that can't have it's way. Or a belligerent ass. Take your pick, because you are clearly one of the above. Please note, I'm also a bit of an ass, but at least I'm open to ideas if someone persuades me that mine had flaws.
:End Insulting Troll Section:

Also, what is good for the one is frequently not what is good for the many. That is perhaps the most foolish quote anyone's ever came up with.

Despotic dictatorships are good for the one (the dictator) and not so much for the many (the thousands or millions of killed).
If I have all of the cookies, how does that help the other kids that want a cookie too, especially if I'm not forced or inclined to share?
If I survive a car crash, does that mean everyone should go out and have one too?

No, what is good for the many is generally good for the one. But not always. Any situation where you could draw an analogy to that sort of a reference is highly dependent on the situation at hand. Broad generalizations are pretty useless like that I've found out.
I prefer this as an alternative: What's good for the one, is, well, good for the one. Oftentimes the many get left in the dust.
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Re: Moral men and women will deny women equal rights.

Post by Greatest I am »

Thanks for this.

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DL

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Re: Moral men and women will deny women equal rights.

Post by 420 »

Cooperation between the sexes for common goals will always work better than either sex ruling.
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Re: Moral men and women will deny women equal rights.

Post by Solving Ennui »

Just a short comment, if you insist in gender oriented hierarchy, in either direction, because god I get tired of feminazis... don't you actively deny your godhood, and the godhood of those who fit into your hierarchy, correct me if I am wrong but to realize one's divinity, and see it in others, is the basis of all magic, and all genuine religion at least as far back as egypt.

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