Breaking the 4th wall

OneOfFourth
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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Another attack (several) last night. The mages are changing their tactic it seems. {sarcasm} I have to give them credit for caring so much for me to put such time and effort into their game. {/sarcasm} Here's what happened:

I was working on figuring out some information about the things going on. I figured out that Person-X is The Chameleon "entity" which I haven't been able to get rid of. I also learned what is most probably going on and how it does what it does and why. (short version: mental link, replace a memory area with a link to another person's mind. can be used in various ways.)

Then suddenly Entity-A appeared clearly in my minds eye. Long story short: it was talking lots of bullshit to me, which revealed it to be the copycat I've ran into several times before. So I can't trust direct communication with Entity-A anymore. So I threw the copycat away.

A bit later I heard in my mind a very clear repeating "Help me" voice. It sounded garbled in some weird way. It felt much more real than any regular thought I might have, like it definitely wasn't coming from my own mind. I did my now standard technique of finding where the voice was coming from, and saw a weird camouflage-like wall escaping me and trying to go behind my back. The "wall" was really hard to concentrate on, like it was directing my attention anywhere than to itself. So I felt that this might be The Chameleon (Person-X) entity which I had ran into before. I managed to catch it and rip apart the illusion. Behind was some vageuly human shaped block made of shiny energy. I brushed away the energy to make it free and from inside found two small a bit robot like cute things that ran to me. They disappeared, not sure if I absorbed them or if they left.

Then I still heard the same voice saying "Help me". It didn't respond to my questions who it was etc. I followed it and found a white orb shining white light. It was mostly covered with some living smoke/tentacle kind of moving and living material (entity of some sorts?). It tried to pull away the orb. I managed to get rid of the entity and take the orb. Absorbed it, just in case, because I had no idea what else to do with it, since it didn't seem to move or do anything.

The exact same above "finding and fighting for an orb" happened a couple of more times. Then after "saving the last orb" I saw a white glowing Eye of Horus icon in the air. I asked what it's doing here. It said it was here to save me. I asked what can it do. It said it's here to give me knowledge. For "some reason" I felt really sceptical about it. Still I decided to see what it wants to say, so I pulled it inside me. Immediately I started hearing it saying things to me which were clearly designed to scare me as quickly as possible. I didn't obviously buy any of that garbage and just cast it away and told it to never come back. Then I went back to sleep.

I woke some time later and heard a clear voice in my head saying something along the lines of "Listen pal, if we don't start working together, we're all going to die!" It was really easy to figure out who that message came from (Person-X). So here are my thoughts on that last message:

Oh really??? Let me think about this a bit: First those guys try to destroy me, coarse me, threaten to kill me on regular basis, scare me into giving in to them and they keep attacking me on constant basis. Then tonight they try to use copycat Entity-A to manipulate me into doing their work, try to scare me with pure lies and deceit and now they have the audacity to come whining to me when I don't comply? Are you guys running out of ideas?

Still I have to say I feel glad that at least someone in this world feels that what I'm doing is important, so they actually put in the time, effort and planning. Even if it's the opposing force [gz]

So the moral of the story?
They still use the good old tactic of theirs: feed couple of truths and add a lie into the mix, which is the actual information you want the victim to swallow. Truths help the target drop their guard and not scrutinize the lie in the mix.
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Kath
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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OneOfFourth wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:32 pm That's a great place to be in my opinion. The hard part is figuring out what is bullshit and what is not. Maybe one way to go about it would be that if you know couple of things that are really true, it's often easy to logically determine causes & effects from that which don't feel random. I.e. they paint a specific clear picture of something.

I've noticed that when you have 2+ nuggets of truth that are somehow related to each other (even in a distant way), you can start drawing conclusions from them which make surprising amounts of sense. This usually suggests which info bits are true and which are not.
I took a page from nihilism.
Probably worth reading some Nietzsche. Although people seem to love or hate nietzsche without actually having read his work. He wasn't a nihilist. He viewed nihilism as sort of the dragon in his personal epic. A greatly revered foe.
Anyway. The issue is, what do you absoultely KNOW? so nihilism kinda pops up.
cognito ergo sum "I think therefore I am"... that sounds good. Some have questioned even that... but, i think it's fairly sound.
What about practicality? How many nihilists have starved to death because they weren't sure their hunger was real?
I'd wager not many.
So.. even within a system of percieved stimuli... of variable reliability and trust in the veracity of what's perceived... some of it is simply accepted as "real enough to be take action based on it", ergo the nihilist goes out and eats a sandwich, a fairly realistic sandwich even ;)

So... there's an economy of trust in perception and reason, OUTSIDE of absolute provability. Which is to say...
You only need things to be absolutely provably true, if you plan to go around conceiving of them as such.

Instead, I decided on a kind of probability hierarchy.
I think, I am = true-true
i feel pain, i have needs, i must eat and drink, etc. = not absolutely provable. but in the absence of contrary evidence, lets call it "true for all intents and purposes", or maybe 99% true.
I live in a civilized society = eh... even within all that is perceived, assuming perceptions are accurate, that's about a 50/50.
My school's sportball team is the best! = ok, lets not bullshit ourselves, that's maybe 5% true ;)
I'm typing on a keyboard = it's as realistic as the hunger, lets go with 99% true
other people think, therefore they are? = it's as realistic as the keyboard being real, best as I can tell, so 99%

and so on

somewhere around 75% true or so, lets call those 'truths': "actionable"

Basically, just going with the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard, which the legal system 'tries' to employ.

If I'm not typing on a keyboard, that would not be upsetting, it would be interesting.
Almost all of what I think is in that category, or a lesser category.

Tell me everything I think about the world is all wrong... I'd say prove it.
Not "prove it" in the sense of "fuck off", but really, if you can prove it, very thoroughly (I didn't come to what I think in a void of perception & reason, so it'll take a lot), then I'm interested in your evidence.

If I was eating soup with a spoon, and then all of a sudden, you proved there was no spoon, I mean, that would be really interesting.
Like, I was sure the spoon was guilty of existing, then you go all Perry Mason and do the thing with the objection, and bam, it wasn't the spoon the whole time. And I'm not sure why I tasted the soup exactly, but that's a cool plot twist. Did not see that coming.

hehe. that never happens. and I'm a little more entrenched in ideas than that sounds. but at the bottom layer is just a bit of humility in what I think I know. And building out from there without losing sight of the possible need to restructure ideas.

As you get more into the fringes of what seems kinda true-ish... sorta. I'm happy to entertain multiple differing and directly conflicting ideas. And consider the ideas for their 'utility' as well as their validity, as separate things. Magic fits into this. Is my method of magic literally correct in all of it's varied aspects and conceptual principals? ehhh... lets just go with "I like that it works (when it works)".

There's a few unexpected zingers in the mix though, like precognition. Based on my first hand experiences, that's 99%, as close to true as me typing on this keyboard, or eating soup with a spoon. Now, it's a causality violation... so it creates a gigantic mess, conceptually, in how the universe works. But it's as concretely perceived as anything else i've perceived, so my universe modeling will just have to be messy. "things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler than possible" (Einstein lightly chastising the over-use, or abuse, of Ockham's razor. people too often skip the "which fits the evidence" part, if it's too inconvenient for their world view)

My mentor... now, really easy to say "figment of my imagination". However, she provided proof that she's "something". Basically just brandishing a little omniscience here & there, as needed, to assuage doubts about her existence. There is the possibility that she's a figment of my imagination, BUT, that would mean I'm omniscient, and don't know it. Either way, there's no tidy, simple way to explain her away. And a 'higher self' interpretation of her kinda fits that explanation actually, or a gray area somewhat adjacent to it, and I've considered that possibility often.

But yeah, you learn an area by first learning the cardinal directions, and a few main roads... and then the rest just fills in with the experience of exploring and relating it all to what you know already. I tried to be excruciatingly meticulous in keeping that core framework pure and accurate, as failing that was the downfall of my previous attempt. A lot of rigor in differentiating between experience and assumption. I try not to assume, or at the vary least label assumptions with a big red flag, flashing lights, warning tape, and an angry badger. Sometimes when talking magical stuff, i get into territory which needs more and more red flags, and it can be exhausting labeling everything as such, so just for blanket purposes: some of what i say on magic & philosophy is tentative :P (and some isn't tentative, and some is highly utilitarian whether it's explicitly true or not)

Same here. The more open mind you have, the easier it is to notice new and odd things that lead you to new discoveries.

I also try to "fail fast" when piecing together information. I.e. if I've understood something wrong, I try to find that out as fast as possible. Unfortunately it's easier said than done, when going on the first steps on personal esoteric journey. More knowledge and experience makes the "failing fast" process faster (confirmation of what's true and what's not).
yeah.
sometimes people criticize by insinuating I lack uh... conviction.
But I think humans are incredibly good at generating conviction, whether it's true or not. So I just play into that strength, and have no problem creating a tsnuami of 'Will' and conviction, on demand. It's almost easier to generate when you know how the brain conjures such things than it is to fall into it purely by way of paradigmatic happenstance. But then i can reign that in, and look at how things worked with an ounce of realism and open mindedness after ;) so that lends itself to a 'better informed' body of experience.

To me personally, morality is not relative. You first have to define what is Right and what is Wrong. Here's how someone put it so eloquently:

1. Wrong is an action which steals or destroys other person's property. Property isn't limited to physical objects, but also includes freedom, life, Rights, etc.
2. Everything else is a Right. In other words: Right is an action that when taken, does not cause any harm to other sentient beings.

Moral actions are based on Rights.
Immoral actions are based on Wrongs.

I hold that as a truth :) Those stem from the Natural Law, i.e. the law of the Universe.
I'd hold that as a truth for the species, rather than the universe.
I'm of the species, so it applies to me. And if something not of the species came along and wanted to violate it, I'd be apposed. But, I don't really think certain species of spiders are "evil" because the young eat the parent.
Like there's tiers to morality:
I think that's wrong.
I think that's wrong and I'll fight you over it.
I think that's wrong, and the stars and the moon and the fish in the sea and every galaxy in existence shares my opinion and considers you evil, even the rocks are ashamed to touch your feet from what you have done.

(I avoid ever thinking the last one, as a pretty strict rule. everybody knows rocks have no shame anyway)

Maybe one way to put it is that "god is the law of the universe"; everything works though the laws that god has set into this reality? :)
I dunno. honestly 'god' feels like an awkward word for it to me. so much cultural and conceptual baggage. it's just more poetic than "the over arching current of universal consciousness, or something kinda like that"

Nothing can replace actual real world practical hands-on experience and knowledge. That's the testbed for all things we learn in life. If it doesn't work in real life after lots of practise, there's probably something wrong.
Yeah, in the same vein of thought, I kinda feel like an 'overly guided' approach is like having an experience on rails in a theme park, it can be interesting, but it lacks that true spirit of exploration and discovery.

Agreed. Numerology feels to me like it tries to categorise/compartmentalize everything wayyy too much. Kinda like "everything in the world is either a potato or not a potato." Well... yeah... but.... [unsure]
Thales said everything is made of water.
Solid water, liquid water, and gaseous water. (ice, water, steam) that all of reality was just varying forms of water.
Most people mock his viewpoint.
But really he was just saying that matter has specific 'states', and they're mutable, under the right conditions.
so really i think Thales is underrated there.
BUT... it's all a labeling scheme. It turns out there's more than 3 states, there's also plasma, and superfluids, and... well a number of things, even a few which exist only in the cores of certain stars (probably), but... he chose to say 'water', and the later labeling scheme which got broad acceptance chose 'matter', so he gets ridiculed, cuz he didn't pander to a labeling & categorization scheme which didn't exist until after his death. I mean, obviously he thought the different sorts of 'water' had differing properties. metal doesn't melt at room temperature for example, he knew this. sorry, rambling :)

Anyway, I could say 427 is the number of the great chewing gum. and then figure out ways which different measurements and dates and numbers, correlate to different flavors of chewing gum, but it's not like it has any effect on the measured things. But i'm sure if it caught on at all, then at 4:27pm on may 27th, some group would try to gather to blow bubbles, and think it significant.

Compare that to Ronald McDonald: he doesn't wield such power in people's minds. No one goes praying or summoning for Ronald McDonald when doing magick. On the otherhand Ronald McDonald wields immense power to make people willingly cause themselves obesity and heart diseases. Now that's a power most demons would be envious of. All this power and we're only talking about a fictional character. It's a whole other story if all this gives birth to new spirits, which somehow reflect people's subconscous beliefs/actions related to all things McDonald's.
I think I've seen Ronald McDonald brought up in chaos magic before ;)

And by doing things that way (your way) you automatically steer away from harming other people, which is great :) You're using esoteric knowledge/research/journey to make a better version of yourself; you're on a mission to transform/change yourself. There's nothing inherently bad in it and never will be. It's morally super safe way to do esoteric things. It's also the wise way, since aquiring knowledge and skills is the only proper currency we have, in addition to time. Time, knowledge and skills are basis for everything humanity has ever achieved and done.
It's not a desire for a higher road or a gold star though ;) I feel I have difficult goals, and I'm greedy and utilitarian about getting there. And it sure isn't going to be by way of asking for easy fixes to things i should know how to fix myself ;)

To me personally, traditions = dogma. All the things I learn, must prove themselves to be both usable and true. I'm not especially looking for the complexity or simplicity of the thing I learn. Just that it works and it holds true. I also try to break it into smaller parts to figure out which parts are just extra fat and which are the important parts that actually make it work.

I know I don't become popular by investigating things and scrutinizing them. But that's how I've always approached learning things. I have never been able to just accept something to be true because someone says so. I always have to test it myself to get peace of mind on the topic.

Someone: "That stove is really hot. You'll burn your finger if you poke it."
Me: *pokes the stove with finger* --> "Auch! Yep! It did get burned!"
I don't disagree. I just kinda circle around all the ways a thing might be taken. sometimes anyway.
I'm 'moderately' sensitive to the idea that if i dismiss someone's ideological ecosystem too bluntly, that they may not wish to engage in conversations which 'might' have fruitful ideas contained in them. perhaps for them, perhaps for me.
'moderately' being the operative word though.

Hmm, any pointers on this topic?
ummm
well like, if it's a blow, it's a bunch of force up front, you deflect or dodge it, or absorb it, then it's over. but an ongoing thing, is like a trickle that keeps going and going, like someone shining a bright light in your eyes. you need to break their flashlight, or contrive sunglasses, or step into a different room, or give them a cardboard cutout of yourself to shine it at, or something to disrupt the ongoing annoyance. You can usually just short out the mechanism of the thing. but sometimes it's 'tactful' to leave it working and just distract it onto a fake target. and see if the operator notices the switch. i dunno. maybe even leave it in place for a bit to study it.
bit of chess involved, and psychology, and subterfuge, logistics, planning, experience, creativity, and changing the rules...
Sun Tzu, Machiavelli, Ludendorff, cold war psyops, there's lots of reading material which is indirectly applicable to any extension of negotiation by undiplomatic means.

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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Kath wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:12 pm
OneOfFourth wrote: 2. Everything else is a Right. In other words: Right is an action that when taken, does not cause any harm to other sentient beings.
I'd hold that as a truth for the species, rather than the universe.
That's why I said sentient beings :) Meaning all things capable of higher level thinking.

Kath wrote: I dunno. honestly 'god' feels like an awkward word for it to me. so much cultural and conceptual baggage. it's just more poetic than "the over arching current of universal consciousness, or something kinda like that"
I personally mostly use the word Universe. Since, as I mentioned, I'm not sure god even exists or if it's the same thing as the Universe itself. Where I got the "god" word from was from morning meditation+discussion with some entity (not sure which one it was) who gave me explanation what magick is. (I started a thread on the topic some time ago)

Kath wrote: BUT... it's all a labeling scheme. It turns out there's more than 3 states, there's also plasma, and superfluids, and... well a number of things, even a few which exist only in the cores of certain stars (probably),
I think neutron stars count as fluids made mostly out of pure neutrons. If I remember correctly, has giant centers are made of metallized hydrogen. I think it's a fluid in nature also... Not that it has anything to do with occult knowledge per se :)

Kath wrote: I'm 'moderately' sensitive to the idea that if i dismiss someone's ideological ecosystem too bluntly, that they may not wish to engage in conversations which 'might' have fruitful ideas contained in them. perhaps for them, perhaps for me.
'moderately' being the operative word though.
Yeah I think it's a good idea to have some kind of etiquette when discussing esoteric things (or anything really). But it's probably impossible to not step on some toes, since occult knowledge is so fragmented and multitiered in nature, that there's bound to be thing that can't be touched without someone getting frustrated about it.

Kath wrote: well like, if it's a blow, it's a bunch of force up front, you deflect or dodge it, or absorb it, then it's over. but an ongoing thing, is like a trickle that keeps going and going, like someone shining a bright light in your eyes. you need to break their flashlight, or contrive sunglasses, or step into a different room, or give them a cardboard cutout of yourself to shine it at, or something to disrupt the ongoing annoyance. You can usually just short out the mechanism of the thing. but sometimes it's 'tactful' to leave it working and just distract it onto a fake target. and see if the operator notices the switch. i dunno. maybe even leave it in place for a bit to study it.
Hmm, so lot of options. Next I need to figure out how to test those options.

Kath wrote: bit of chess involved, and psychology, and subterfuge, logistics, planning, experience, creativity, and changing the rules...
Sun Tzu, Machiavelli, Ludendorff, cold war psyops, there's lots of reading material which is indirectly applicable to any extension of negotiation by undiplomatic means.
I've read Sun Tzu's Art of War and have Machiavelli's Prince in my book shelve, waiting to be read. I've also studied quite a bit how propaganda and psychological warfare works :) I'm also interested in psychology. If you haven't already, check out the following books:

The True Believer (Eric hoffere)
Irrationality (Stuart Sutherland)

Highly recommended reading :)
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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OneOfFourth wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 8:23 pm I've read Sun Tzu's Art of War and have Machiavelli's Prince in my book shelve, waiting to be read. I've also studied quite a bit how propaganda and psychological warfare works :) I'm also interested in psychology. If you haven't already, check out the following books:

The True Believer (Eric hoffere)
Irrationality (Stuart Sutherland)

Highly recommended reading :)
cool, i'll check those out :)

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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Amor wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:59 am I was earlier on the phone to an ex-martial-arts type. He has been struggling for weeks to see the vertical flow of Spirit and to see the Flame. I suspect that there are permissions still in place. For example I think he used to give in to feelings of violence. He still cherishes a memory of being able to defeat a much more advanced fighter. He said he did not know what came over him. I think that possession is still present.
Wait, I have to make sure, since for some reason "martial arts" word has been popping in a weird way to my head. Was the above also one of the oblique ways of referencing me? If it was, I need to know more. Because if it was, then I finally found what I was looking for, what has been the problem with me and I couldn't find anyone who could do anything about it.
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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The entity that drives martial arts is from the previous version of the solar system - where it taught the spiritual aspects of matter and intelligence. Of course this manifestation of the solar system has a quite different set of spiritual imperatives based on right relationship - our god has become a god of love.

So the question is: are you being held/influenced by (operating within the aura of) an entity from the previous manifestation of this solar system?

Try this:

- visualize a piece of paper with the words "too connected to the previous solar system"
- move that paper towards your energy field to see what interaction might occur.

Try some variations on the words. The test is very sensitive to the wording.

Try: "time to be free of old influences"

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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Last edited by OneOfFourth on Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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Amor wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:53 pm The entity that drives martial arts is from the previous version of the solar system - where it taught the spiritual aspects of matter and intelligence. Of course this manifestation of the solar system has a quite different set of spiritual imperatives based on right relationship - our god has become a god of love.

So the question is: are you being held/influenced by (operating within the aura of) an entity from the previous manifestation of this solar system?

Try this:

- visualize a piece of paper with the words "too connected to the previous solar system"
- move that paper towards your energy field to see what interaction might occur.

Try some variations on the words. The test is very sensitive to the wording.

Try: "time to be free of old influences"
You didn't answer to the part I really wanted to know. I'll explain:

Was the phone call a reference to a telepathic communication with me? If it was, I haven't had any telepathic communications with you at all. The reason I really really need to know is because for over one year now I've suspected that some people think I've had telepathic communications with them regularly and I most definitely have not. As I've mentioned that I have a great suspicion that my awakening was somehow tampered with or hijacked and something/someone else handles esoteric communication through me. Like I was some kind of a door which covert mage agents use or something along those lines. I need to be sure ASAP about what on earth is going on. So please tell me if you've contacted me telepathically AND had a converstion. If you did, then I have nailed down 100% what is wrong with me. That would also mean a lot of people are angry with me because of things I did not do but someone else handling the communication did.

This has to be it.
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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>Was the phone call a reference to a telepathic communication with me?

No. I was with that fellow last night and he still had the dark layer in his head, shielding him from his soul. I think that he is still too proud of being good at martial arts. That pride is an on-going invitation to be dominated by the martial arts entity.

> some people think I've had telepathic communications with them regularly

I think largely in images rather than words - even when typing. So if I am attempting telepathy I will send an image or perhaps an intent. It seems however that most humans think in words. If you are an image thinker, you might ask these would-be recipients whether they received words or images.

Long ago I knew a young doctor, who would often answer the phone with "City morgue". The callers usually had no means of penetrating the joke. Similarly perhaps for the recipients of the alleged telepathy.

>my awakening was somehow tampered with or hijacked

Quite so. The immediate mechanism is the "octopus". How does it have permission?

> something/someone else handles esoteric communication through me

Your inner sponsor still can access a modest part of the bandwidth. To bypass the octopus, try visualizing a tube of white light coming out of the middle of your forehead for some distance and then turn the stream of light upwards high above your head. Ask your inner sponsor (standing just outside the planet) to send you some thoughts. Do you get thoughts/images that feel differently?

I have attempted no telepathy with you but I have looked closely at you on occasion - now for example. You may well pick up some of my imaging of you.

>This has to be it.

Like any science, spiritual science operates best when there are competing theories and experimental tests. It might be as well to be very wary when your (contaminated) mind fixes so strongly on an answer. "Nope" might be an example.

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