Breaking the 4th wall

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Amor
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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When the paper (the concept) is repelled then the concept and the voice are strongly not compatible.

So, are you now satisfied that the voice was targeted interference?

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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I do not advise seeking the interferer. Some dark entities operate beyond the level of the human soul.

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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Amor wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:29 pm When the paper (the concept) is repelled then the concept and the voice are strongly not compatible.
I'm still not sure what to make of it; how to decipher those results I got?

If the concept is not compatible with the voice, that sounds like it could mean all kinds of things? Such as:

1. The owner of the voice doesn't have good intentions in mind.
2. The voice was not real but just my imagination when the paper said "Is true".
3. The voice was lying about being desperate when the paper said "Is true".
4. Something else, what?

How to know which one of those the results pointed to?
Amor wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:29 pm So, are you now satisfied that the voice was targeted interference?
Yes and no:

Yes: I'm not simply going crazy AND I might now have more evidence what's going on and how I'm being targeted and this would help me defend myself.

No: I'm probably being targeted by yet another method by The-37. As far as I'm aware, The-37 are the only ones who seem to have grudge against me. Also they seem to meddle with all kinds of demons/spirits all the time and sent them my way. Could be an attempt to implant a suggestion to my mind? (To be desperate and to make me do something hasty; sounds exactly like The-37 to me.)

Amor wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:29 pm I do not advise seeking the interferer. Some dark entities operate beyond the level of the human soul.
I'm fairly sure it's either Person-X or at least someone Person-X knows directly or indirectly, or most probably one of their spirit/demon allies. I don't mind finding and having a chat with the adverse entity.

(EDIT: My synchronizities are saying "go for it".)

EDIT 2: Hmm, for some reason I have this growing sensation that I should be more careful with this one. Not because the possible entity is super dangerous, but because there is a chance this could be a manipulation to get me to attack my own benevolent spirit guide. This means I have to start figuring out a good way to tell the benevolent entities from the adverse ones. All suggestions are more than welcome.
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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> how to decipher those results I got?

They seemed pretty clear to me.

>The-37 are the only ones who seem to have grudge against me

Humans and lesser spirits are used as immediate attack vectors. They are expendable.

I do not recall ever being attacked by a human that was operating from its own volition. All the examples I have examined had an adverse/predatory hierarchy driving them.


>>I do not advise seeking the interferer. Some dark entities operate beyond the level of the human soul.
> I have this growing sensation that I should be more careful with this one.

My comment was not random.

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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It really seems that The-37 have actually changed their tactics to a new one. The entity at the "other end of the speaker cord" didn't look aggressive at all in any way. I don't know how long this new type of manipulative attack has been going on, but it looks like it wasn't just yesterday, but probably for a somewhat longer time already. It looks awfully lot to me that what they're doing now is use magick to cut my ties to proper information sources and to helpful people. Here's what it looks like what they're doing:

1. They fake the attacking source --> I follow the attack to the wrong entity/person and give spiritual spanking to the wrong (and helpful/benevolent) target --> Helpful entities/people get spanking and get driven away from me thinking I'm just a psycho who attacked them for no reason. A great way to use me to get rid of "my own team".

2. They use magick to make people to not be able to deliver me helpful/truthful information and guidance which would help me forward on my spiritual awakening. The spells usually manifest themselves in people's lives as natural looking random coincidences which steer them naturally away/towards things the spell caster(s) want.

So basically you and Kath are in that circle. Just for your information.

Also if I have accidentally attacked any of you in anyway: my bad! Was definitely NOT my intention. (just in case I've done something which was not my intention) This means "no more spiritual spanking to adverse entities" unless I figure out a fool proof way to test if that's really the attacker or not.
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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I have never experienced an attack from you.

You still appear to me to have a dark entity working to block the flow of pure Spirit into your heart. The entity seems to be a part of the "octopus" I see on your head.

With concealed/passive/forgotten permissions, active resistance/defense is unlikely to succeed.

The flow of pure Spirit is able to lift the human above predatory attacks. Do the flame exercise and intend to be free of any adverse influences and permissions.



All organic beings have a cyclical light-dark balance. Darkness has a natural function in any entity that is manifesting on planes denser than its essence. Excessive darkness and excessive light generate most of the problems in this galaxy.

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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Amor wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 9:12 am I have never experienced an attack from you.
OK, good to know.
Amor wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 9:12 am You still appear to me to have a dark entity working to block the flow of pure Spirit into your heart. The entity seems to be a part of the "octopus" I see on your head.

With concealed/passive/forgotten permissions, active resistance/defense is unlikely to succeed.
That's my experience also. Can't get rid of it.

Amor wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 9:12 am The flow of pure Spirit is able to lift the human above predatory attacks. Do the flame exercise and intend to be free of any adverse influences and permissions.
I'll do that.
Amor wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 9:12 am All organic beings have a cyclical light-dark balance. Darkness has a natural function in any entity that is manifesting on planes denser than its essence. Excessive darkness and excessive light generate most of the problems in this galaxy.
That's my view on things also.
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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For what it's worth, journal of sorts, if it helps others to learn something or give me pointers:

Last night, once again, I received a message into my mind from someone I know. I asked to prove it by e-mailing me today with a specific word in the e-mail. I received answer that it can't be done because the message is from a parallel timeline/universe/something like that. Today I asked spirit guides, through my synchronizities, if the message was really from that person or was it "just" a spirit of some sort. I immediately received an answer that it was a spirit pretending to be someone I know.

I also asked what do I need to do to learn The-37's code/sign language. I immediately received the answer "stronger force is opposing this attempt".

Two nights ago some spirit tricked me into doing something I'm still not sure what it was exactly. After realising I had been fooled in some way, I decided to reprogram the spirit since I felt it had bad intentions in mind. A bit later I was attacked by couple of spirits. I decided to reprogram them (their "operating system") too and sent them to work. Sometime later that same night I was visited by an angry spirit which didn't attack me. It looked quite a lot like a werewolf for some reason, which is odd and I've never experienced that before (they usually look like formless blobs or weird everchanging geometric shapes of somekind). I somehow understood that it's message to me was that reprogramming spirits was vulgar/barbaric and extremely bad etiquette, regardless of if they had attacked me or not. Only if they threatened my life, then reprogramming might be OK to do. This reminded me of etiquette I had made for myself a fair while ago, which was that "spirits and living beings should be treated equally, i.e. no brainwashing/soul stealing/soul eating/etc.". I started wondering how I had forgotten to follow that part of my own etiquette. Immediately the angry spirit showed me a picture of an octopus. Right away I felt that this might be a reference to the same spirit Amor has mentioned seeing on my head? I apologized the spirit and promised to follow my own etiquette much more carefully from now on. It seemed to calm down a bit but still seemed irritated.
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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Octopi seem to be standard issue for most humans - part of the oppression system

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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OneOfFourth wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:30 pm It felt like someone was trying to lure me into "giving my soul into their hands so I can receive tons of really cool goodies". "Any skill or talent you can imagine would be in your reach." I didn't give into the temptation. At the time I thought that this was probably my imagination, but now I start to think that it might have actually been some outside party communicating with me.
I don't think a person can actually sell their soul. At least not in any way that resembles a formal contract.
Though I think similar enough things can happen, such as convincing oneself of a subservient status to another, or internalizing corrupting influences to the point of a sort of partial or total identity death.
Both of those are 'functionally' quite similar to the stereotype of selling one's soul. I'm just nitpicking that the stereotypical "contract penned in blood" thing is a myth. Though at times a myth which can be used to fuck with people or manipulate them.

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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OneOfFourth wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:12 am It really seems that The-37 have actually changed their tactics to a new one. The entity at the "other end of the speaker cord" didn't look aggressive at all in any way. I don't know how long this new type of manipulative attack has been going on, but it looks like it wasn't just yesterday, but probably for a somewhat longer time already. It looks awfully lot to me that what they're doing now is use magick to cut my ties to proper information sources and to helpful people. Here's what it looks like what they're doing:

1. They fake the attacking source --> I follow the attack to the wrong entity/person and give spiritual spanking to the wrong (and helpful/benevolent) target --> Helpful entities/people get spanking and get driven away from me thinking I'm just a psycho who attacked them for no reason. A great way to use me to get rid of "my own team".

2. They use magick to make people to not be able to deliver me helpful/truthful information and guidance which would help me forward on my spiritual awakening. The spells usually manifest themselves in people's lives as natural looking random coincidences which steer them naturally away/towards things the spell caster(s) want.

So basically you and Kath are in that circle. Just for your information.

Also if I have accidentally attacked any of you in anyway: my bad! Was definitely NOT my intention. (just in case I've done something which was not my intention) This means "no more spiritual spanking to adverse entities" unless I figure out a fool proof way to test if that's really the attacker or not.
That's an interesting proposition. That they might try to distract the lives of people who would be helpful.
Superficially it seems very clever, but it engenders considerable risk, depending on whom they distract, and in what manner.
From what you've described of them, they seem kinda risk-aversive.

I haven't noticed any attacks, from you or anyone else. But I really wouldn't mind if there were, so long as the attacks were interesting in some way.

But have I been distracted? Arguably yes, although I wouldn't say that it was 'caused by someone of ill intent'. I'll ponder on it though.

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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Kath wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:07 pm I don't think a person can actually sell their soul. At least not in any way that resembles a formal contract.
That's actually one of key points of my studies: can a person hand over their soul to someone else so they actually control/own it? It lets me understand a lot better how certain spirits and occultists operate, and what's real and what's not.

Mark Passio (a famous deoccultist, check Youtube) has mentioned semi implicitly that it's not possible. But I'm still not 100% sure so I need to figure that one out. What Passio said was something along the lines that "Universe has given all sentient beings unalienable rights which are Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness". If that happened to be true, then it might be implicitly stated that soul cannot be stolen nor sold nor given away,s ince that would negate all those unalienable rights. This in turn brings out the question: "Is Mark Passio right in what he's saying?"
Kath wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:07 pm Though I think similar enough things can happen, such as convincing oneself of a subservient status to another, or internalizing corrupting influences to the point of a sort of partial or total identity death.
Both of those are 'functionally' quite similar to the stereotype of selling one's soul. I'm just nitpicking that the stereotypical "contract penned in blood" thing is a myth. Though at times a myth which can be used to fuck with people or manipulate them.
I've seen that happen in real life more than once. It's sad seeing a person turn into something completely different, ending up with total lack of traditional moral code towards humans and humanity. [grump]
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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Kath wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:16 pm That's an interesting proposition. That they might try to distract the lives of people who would be helpful.
Superficially it seems very clever, but it engenders considerable risk, depending on whom they distract, and in what manner.
From what you've described of them, they seem kinda risk-aversive.
Well, it's been almost one and a half years already, since the attacks started coming my way regularly. So The-37 have had lots of time to figure out new ways to kick me in the direction they'd like me to roll to. They haven't gotten from me what they want so they adjust and try again. At the same time I learn new things, which is the only positive side.

From what I've gathered, it's no different than messing with someone's synchronizities. Exact same method/mechanic (however it's done).

It's not like suddenly a spirit comes and adjusts your train of thought (at least not usually from what I understand how things work). It's more like adjusting the odds of the universe, which in turn steer things towards the way the magick user wants them to.

This is where things get really fuzzy for me, since I can't seem to make a clear distinction between what's "magick" and what's actually caused by spirits. I.e. if you make a spell/ritual/whatever, my current view on things is that you actually instruct The Universe to do something. This in turn gets delegated to whatever thing gets that done with least use of power / breaking the Natural Laws. Usually this could be a spirit that starts working on things for awhile to get things rolling more in the direction the magick user wanted with his/her spell. Sometimes it could be something else. What? I don't know. But this is in my opinion the reason why magick energy is said to have a will of its own. I.e. you tell it what the end result should be and leave the design of the implementation to the "magick energy". Sounds awfully lot like a spirit to me.

Same explanation, but different words:
My view of magick is that doing a spell is like sending a letter of request to The Universe, who is the cosmic postman, in charge of redirecting your letters to whomever it may concern. The postman decides that your request would be best implemented by X and forwards it there. Then X reads it and goes like
"Hmm, OK. Why not. I'll just adjust that small upcoming tiny event a bit and that should cause a chain reaction to get the requested results. But this is probably going to cause you some backlash, so get ready to be kicked in your daddy bags at some point..." ---> and moves on with the task.
Kath wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:16 pm I haven't noticed any attacks, from you or anyone else. But I really wouldn't mind if there were, so long as the attacks were interesting in some way.

But have I been distracted? Arguably yes, although I wouldn't say that it was 'caused by someone of ill intent'. I'll ponder on it though.
I'd love to donate any amount of the attacks I've been targeted with to interested parties. You can have mine if you want [gz]
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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OneOfFourth wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:13 pm ...
This is where things get really fuzzy for me, since I can't seem to make a clear distinction between what's "magick" and what's actually caused by spirits. I.e. if you make a spell/ritual/whatever, my current view on things is that you actually instruct The Universe to do something. This in turn gets delegated to whatever thing gets that done with least use of power / breaking the Natural Laws. Usually this could be a spirit that starts working on things for awhile to get things rolling more in the direction the magick user wanted with his/her spell. Sometimes it could be something else. What? I don't know. But this is in my opinion the reason why magick energy is said to have a will of its own. I.e. you tell it what the end result should be and leave the design of the implementation to the "magick energy". Sounds awfully lot like a spirit to me.
I usually have a clear idea of how what I'm doing magically connects to the intended effect. Or to put it another way, I don't "cast Luck and then hope something goes right". I'm more into the mechanical connection between what I'm doing and what I intend the result to be. I hammer the nail into the board, I don't put a hammer & nail in a box with a board and draw symbols on the box and shake it up and hope the nail gets hammered in. And maybe for our metaphor the hammer isn't 'physical' or within the bounds of material science. I'm still holding it, and not leaving steps to fate.

I'm not saying a more disconnected approach couldn't work. Just that I lean more towards a DIY/hands-on direct approach. More doing the thing, rather than praying for the thing.
Same explanation, but different words:
My view of magick is that doing a spell is like sending a letter of request to The Universe, who is the cosmic postman, in charge of redirecting your letters to whomever it may concern. The postman decides that your request would be best implemented by X and forwards it there. Then X reads it and goes like
"Hmm, OK. Why not. I'll just adjust that small upcoming tiny event a bit and that should cause a chain reaction to get the requested results. But this is probably going to cause you some backlash, so get ready to be kicked in your daddy bags at some point..." ---> and moves on with the task.
Yeah, I've seen that approach work. I just like to make my magic by hand rather than subcontract it out :P
and by that I don't mean making my own symbols or chants or something, but plucking at the strings which affect reality in a fairly direct manner. where doing X causes Y because that's just the mechanical nature of subject matter. Comes from a long time of never asking entities to do something 'for' me, but to show me how to do interesting things for myself.

Of course I have had things done for me. I just place a higher value on knowing how to do something myself than I do on whatever material or situational desire is at stake. I'm just at the other end of the spectrum from the ritual approach or intermediary approach.

Everyone should do things their way. I just personally feel a sort of shame in asking for something to be done for me. I don't look "up" to spirits or deities or the universe. If they can accomplish something, and I can't, then why the hell not? If I'm too incapable to manifest a result I want, then let's table that desire for now, and I'll ask to be taught what I need to know to be less helpless.

I'm probably affected by the nature of my relationship with my mentor. Her thinking and mine dovetail very tightly. And she's a little Crom-like in mentality. I ask for nothing. I just listen closely, and try to show my thanks by displaying that I have learned well. If there are hot coals to cross, I don't want her to give me shoes. I want to show her that I have learned to make shoes. Or show her that I have learned to walk across without being burned. Or show her that I have learned to be burned without fear or weakness. Or maybe I walk around the coals ;) The last time I asked her to do something for me was at a funeral, and I wasn't asking for myself.

Though I do constantly desire her time and insight. So I guess I do ask for that much. Maybe I'm just high-maintenance in my own way. heh
Kath wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:16 pm I haven't noticed any attacks, from you or anyone else. But I really wouldn't mind if there were, so long as the attacks were interesting in some way.

But have I been distracted? Arguably yes, although I wouldn't say that it was 'caused by someone of ill intent'. I'll ponder on it though.
I'd love to donate any amount of the attacks I've been targeted with to interested parties. You can have mine if you want [gz]
'shrug' as long as it's interesting & informative.

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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Kath wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:13 am I usually have a clear idea of how what I'm doing magically connects to the intended effect. Or to put it another way, I don't "cast Luck and then hope something goes right". I'm more into the mechanical connection between what I'm doing and what I intend the result to be. I hammer the nail into the board, I don't put a hammer & nail in a box with a board and draw symbols on the box and shake it up and hope the nail gets hammered in. And maybe for our metaphor the hammer isn't 'physical' or within the bounds of material science. I'm still holding it, and not leaving steps to fate.
I think I've done something similar when implementing protective measures for myself against incoming attacks and that's about it. Or when calming down physical symptoms caused by those attacks. I usually imagine drawing light/energy from my surroundings into me, through me and pushing it (for example) around me with intention that it does something when incoming attack arrives etc.

What's your usual method of doing magick as you describe it? Do you spell out intention without imagining energy, or do you imagine energy also, or do you simply imagine the event you wish to see, or something completely different?

Kath wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:13 am I'm probably affected by the nature of my relationship with my mentor. Her thinking and mine dovetail very tightly. And she's a little Crom-like in mentality. I ask for nothing. I just listen closely, and try to show my thanks by displaying that I have learned well. If there are hot coals to cross, I don't want her to give me shoes. I want to show her that I have learned to make shoes. Or show her that I have learned to walk across without being burned. Or show her that I have learned to be burned without fear or weakness. Or maybe I walk around the coals ;) The last time I asked her to do something for me was at a funeral, and I wasn't asking for myself.
My mentor (or mentors? not sure how many there are actually) work very differently. I most often get pointed towards information sources which contain nuggets of information useful for what I happen to need to learn at any given time. From there I need to find and piece together the information. It's not very often that I'm given the information directly in a way like "Here you go! When you do X, Y happens." It has happened only couple of times but that's about it. It seems to be very important to my mentor that I learn to find, analyse and validate information by myself. I get minimal help, only to keep my learning going, but not enough for me to say that I'm actually being taught by some entity.

My past few weeks have now gone into taking the very first steps of figuring out how to do something else than simply protecting myself. I.e I'm in a transition phase, so to speak.

Kath wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:13 am
I'd love to donate any amount of the attacks I've been targeted with to interested parties. You can have mine if you want [gz]
'shrug' as long as it's interesting & informative.
If I can figure out how to do that, I'll let you know :)

Currently my learning is at the stage where I know too little to learn any more from the attacks that are coming my way. I need to learn something extra, before I can start learning from them again. I'm not sure what that "something extra" is though... (Shit. I just had a weird deja vu when typing that last sentence.)
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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BTW, Kath:
I've been following your advice and learning things about myself. I've been doing shadow work now and then and trying to notice from where my thoughts and feelings are derived in my mind and trying to concentrate in the present moment, instead of staying in my random thoughts. I've noticed that I feel much more often what people are about to say to me. Fairly often I get this knowing about what exactly is the discussion about and what the upcoming sentence contains. I can then answer after few couple of words the answer to the sentence, even without hearing it. So something seems to be clicking in place in my mind by following your directions. Thanks!

About the shadow work:
I try to take note every time I get triggered by something. Then I know there's a clear mental wound festering which needs some more shadow work. But then I realized that it's possible that not all mental wounds trigger me. Some might actually make me desensitised, which is problematic: how can I notice those kinds of wounds that need healing? Maybe just by observing my thoughts and behavior?
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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OneOfFourth wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:37 pm What's your usual method of doing magick as you describe it? Do you spell out intention without imagining energy, or do you imagine energy also, or do you simply imagine the event you wish to see, or something completely different?
This particular question gets it's own separate reply,
it's not a brief subject ;)


Um, I started with visualization based energy manipulation. When getting into the occult anyway. Arguably I started earlier than that with prayer, when in my former religion.

I branched into ritual magic somewhat. But ultimately I only found it useful to help keep track of a complex working (like writing out your work on an algebra quiz). It can have more usefulness than that. Like in aiding someone in achieving altered states of consciousness, among other things.

I found that in ritual magic a lot of people seem to put much more value in numerology than I do. Also, some people seem to put a lot of value in the idea of using symbols (verbal, drawn, actions, etc. could all be symbolic), but way too often without a genuine intimate relationship with, and understanding of, the symbols being used. I do think that symbols can access energies beyond oneself, but I do not think that symbols do so "on their own". Kinda like an atheist wearing a cross necklace for luck or something. That dog won't hunt. I think the symbols used only actually do something if the caster has enough of an intimate relationship with the symbol, that the symbol evokes a visceral reaction in the caster. Which they can then channel, and tune-in with. Kinda like how you can blow air through a wind instrument and go through the motions of musical notes, but if you don't purse your lips right, it doesn't make the music.

I mainly drifted back to energy manipulation, and inter-mind effects, as my primary areas of practice.

Energy manipulation can run into the same problem though. Or at least a highly parallel problem. You can easily visualize something without putting any "oomf" into it, without having traction or effect on energy. To get energy manipulation to work, there has to be a visceral sense of working the energy, instead of just picturing imaginary stuff. There's a feel for the energy which is difficult to describe. Good visualizations can help you dial in a of state of mind with a visceral feel for the energy. Much like in ritual, a good ritual helps achieve an altered state of mind, which is tapping into something beyond the rote paint-by-numbers motions of the ritual.

Fairly early on I realized that the visualizations are not 'literal', they convey ideas, and help guide intention, but the actual energetic effect is not necessarily literal to the imagery you choose. I mean if you visualize hardening the energy into a sphere around you to act like a buffer against outside energetic influence, that works fine, and I think it's fairly close to what's actually happening. But, what if you visualize the energy turning into a sphere of fierce plushie toys? If you are able to take the plushie toys seriously and really drive the 'barrier' intent into the visualization, then it could still work. I don't think that would have a different effect, except insomuch as it might be more challenging to connect your intent through that imagery. Arguably a distracting or counter-intuitive visualization is unhelpful, and can lessen your focus/will/intent. But the key bit being that there are many visual imaginings which can arrive at the same intended 'un-imagined' effect, and the effect is the real goal. Similarly you could 'homebrew' rituals, if you had a feel for what you wanted/needed for a good ritual structure.

So over time I became more and more focused on the visceral sensation of the energy handling itself (rather than specific techniques). I did what I liked to call 'weight training with energy', which many other practicioners called "burning myself out" hehe. I still argue it was indeed just weight training. I never actually 'burned out'. It helps if you handle energy which is enjoyable to handle. Something which gives you some element of elation or euphoria as a side effect, can help keep you practicing more often. I used to frequently visualize myself reaching out, really more 'feeling out' the energy all around, and then focusing on trying to "grasp" all that energy. Um, like, transition from 'feeling it', to feeling like I've gained agency with it. Going from "touching it" to "holding it" so to speak. And devoting a lot of time & focus on the transition between the two.

Anyway, the goal (in just weight training) wasn't to do anything particular with the energy. It was just to practice seeing how far I could grasp the energy, how much area I could grasp energy in, what volume of space? How far could I extend my sense of agency (with energy). What could I encompass? How secure was my grasp on the energy? If you reach out to too much, it's like the grasp feels more tenuous, ya? So... I'd reach out to an amount just a bit more than i could grasp securely, and just sit there and work on grasping it more securely, without reducing the scope & range I'm reaching out into. And I'd try over and over and over. And then I'd reach out and feel the maximum amount of energy I could get some tiny bit of sensation of control over. And I'd try to extend that a little bit. And I'd try over and over and over. Working on both the maximum I could feel and exert minimal effect upon, and the maximum I could potently influence. And it's important to know your sensations are accurate. So I'd often try to give the energy a 'swirl' just to feel it move.

How accurately could I feel the energy move? How delicately could I feel the energy move? Does music help intensify potency? Does lighting, or mood help? What is the most effective frame of mind, or mental state? What factors affect my mental Focus? what factors affect the crystalized absoluteness of my Will? What factors affect every part of it? So yeah, listening to some types of music seemed to increase my "oomf", so I'd listen and try to harness as much energy as I possibly could, and then i'd turn the music down slightly, and try to keep the energy level fully maintained. Then turn the music down again, etc. Same principal, trying to exceed previous maximums, and refine the effective factors as distinct from external 'crutches'.

After a couple hours a day, every day, for I don't even know how many years. I got to where I felt like I could channel the kind of energy you'd expect in a highly frenzied large group working. Or a sporting event, or a concert, or an evangelical church going full 'wiggle'. But I could solo it, without the aid of a crowd, or music, etc. And with comparatively much less frenzied mental state. Just a large degree of uh... traction, with the energy.

If a person does a great deal of weight lifting/body building, they can learn to intentionally twitch their pectoral muscles. Which is something a person typically cannot do without the muscle building. Similarly, I found that working energy has a similar sort of uh... increased control with more building of the non-physical muscle.

Alongside that, was a lot of practice with honing the accuracy of perception of the energy. It's easy to "imagine" energy flows without there being an energy flow. While working, absolute Confidence & Will is important, singular intentful focus. But then right after, I'd shift my mental state to a more cynical or doubtful frame of mind, where I'm critiquing whether that confidence & will connected as intended.

Then there's kinda just... feeling out all the different uh, 'natures' which the energy can be imbued with. Shape permanence? Like when I let go, does it stay in a particular shape? Movement permanence? (or effect permanence)? If I've made something of a conveyor belt or osmotic membrane or something, does it transport anything when i look away and stop focusing on it? What exactly has to be different to make something have a lasting imprint of your intent? I have no idea how to describe the difference, but it's something I have a good 'feel' for. A lot of just sorting out the properties of energy as 'stuff' at the most basic level. Kinda like how matter can be solid, liquid, gas, plasma, crystaline, superfluid, etc. And material energy can be electrical, kinetic, heat, gravitational, electromagnetic, having a field, particle, or wave form, etc. I do not equate energy in the occult/spiritual sense as being particularly related to 'energy' as defined by physics (some people get hung up on the terminology because of that). But I approached energy manipulation with a similar sort of empiricism.

Energy seems to be able to be tuned to states which align with emotion or thought. Does energy only respond to the practicioner in the first place because of it's relationship to thought or emotion? Is that the traction mechanism at it's basic level? I'm not certain myself, I kinda lean towards "no", but it's a gentle lean. I kinda feel like the uh...

Well lets call it "the extra-dimensional structure" inherent to mind (and perhaps 'soul' for want of a better term), which kind of orchestrates sentience, or at least adds a layer to it (a layer poorly understood or ignored by scientific inquiry for the most part), is not itself an inert object, and I think that the agency with energy comes from that aspect of self in a form not unlike an invisible muscle or system of muscles.

But energy DOES respond to thought and emotion, so... you can kinda double stack the methodology of leveraging your intent/will, using both extradimensional muscle, and thought/emotion, concurrently. And approach the working from multiple axis at the same time.

If you imagine a brain, which is within a body, but is disconnected from the body. So the body acts as life support for the brain, but the brain does not perceive or control the body. Such a brain would be in a kinda private mental world. Now I think doing magic is kinda like trying to have that brain learn to have some kinesthetic sense, vision, balance, etc. with that previously unperceived body. Enough to connect with and perceive that body, move the body, and perceive the surroundings, etc. Heh, kinda like trying to wake up from a coma, even though you were born in a coma. This metaphor is from the perspective of the 'body' being the soul/energy body/etc, just to be clear.

And doing magic is kinda like trying to learn to dance, with that body. Or move objects which exist in that body's plane of reality. Or make music which effects the brains within other nearby bodies. That body which you start out barely aware of, in a barely perceived environment, in a world of physics you're barely aware of. And I think everyone perceives and interacts with things on that level, all the time, but in a way dimly understood, and often dismissed as just something strange in the material world. Which we are naturally able to perceive much more clearly and easily, so we are wont to attribute cause & effect to that realm. Or perhaps more accurately, instead of learning to dance, it's more like learning to toolcraft and interact with the environment on that level. But the "learning to dance ...with a brain which is normally mostly isolated from the body", kinda illustrates the nature of the challenge involved.

So um, my approach to learning what can be done with energy manipulation starts with developing sensations and muscle control with which to do something with energy.

I think it helps to be creative, and perhaps have an aptitude for engineering. Like with your approach to shielding, it's kinda like trying to create a non-permeable membrane, with an internal volume, which has an anchor point of self. But you could make a lever, or a wheel/pulley, or a molecular sieve, or a printing press, or a computer chip, or a submarine, etc. In many ways the physics of the engineering is different though, because the physics for energy (and mind) are different than material physics. For example, you could make a very short string which connects two points that on a material level are on opposite sides of the globe. You could even do something which mechanically seems like a causality violation to our sense of time. So in a sense, the 'tool-set' in terms of physical principals is much broader, and that helps expand your potential options with engineering.

But the visualizations aren't necessarily exactly as things are.

To be fair, even the way our material world interactions function is rather different than our gut impression of them. Solid objects for example, are actually mostly empty space. The majority of the 'stuff' of the material universe is invisible to the human eye. And what we think of as "stationary" is actually hurdling through the universe in a complex series of compounded elliptical paths at around 400,000 miles per hour. So in the material world, 'stationary' is really meaning stationary relative to ourselves and our local set of physics forces. And much like you don't need to know these things to walk on a round planet without falling off, or to eat a banana, you don't need perfect understanding of the immaterial to begin to work with it. So long as you have a "locally relevant" grasp of some of it's aspects. You can use "working models" which may be woefully incomplete or skewed in understanding, so long as they intersect 'what is real' enough to have utility. If you pull the phallus of the banana god, and a banana drops into your cage, you have a working model, no matter how factually imprecise it is around the edges. Although there is great usefulness in refining the accuracy of your models, as it increases your potential effectiveness and creative options.

Visualized energy manipulation is like using an imagined analogue to effect energy in a manner consistent with intent.

Try making a shield or similar structure which is anchored to a physical location other than yourself. Try making it semi-permeable (in what way? tinker with it!). Try connecting points materially far apart with short immaterial structures. Try giving different natures to energy. Easiest is probably different emotive resonances. But what else could be done? Try making effects which dissipate the moment you turn your attention elsewhere, and then try making effects which linger without constant attention. Personally I find that things stay 'as intended' better while you are focusing on them (perhaps due to a lot of 'muscle training' ;) ), but energy workings can be fastened in place too.

In computer programming, there's a term "closer to the metal". This just means that computer code is closer to the binary functionality of the computer hardware. Further from the metal is just more abstracted in layers of code interacting with other code which eventually interacts with the metal (silicon). I find (and these are my perception/opinion) that energy manipulation is 'closer to the metal' than ritual. Mind you, that doesn't mean you can't have some great ritual codework. Sometimes it is preferable to just use existing codework and leveraging effects through that, rather than trying to get closer to the metal. On the other hand, being closer to the metal is more robust, efficient, and bug-resistant. And perhaps can more in touch with the full range of possibilities. But such a range of possibilities may a grandiose understanding of what's possible, and a healthy dose of creativity, in order to really leverage it.

One early technique I tried was to make a 'battery'. An energy structure with permanence of shape, etc. which could contain a variable amount of energy which is in a charged or excited state. A lot of people view their personal energy as being like this, like they contain it. But really most of the potency of personal energy is in the form of 'flows' which move through the self, rather than reserves which are self contained. I think workings which tap into flows can generally harness more 'oomf' than self contained workings.

Do you use your own personal energy to do the energy working? Or do you use external energy? Considering the frayed edges of what is 'self', in terms of the energy flows which move through oneself, is there a sharply defined difference? Is energy more self-governed the closer it is to your core, and the self-ness of the energy just radiates out from that point in diminishing degrees? If the energy used is broader in scope, being of larger amount but lesser self-governance, how does that effect the working? Is this detail work? Or a brute force issue? Can you use detail work to channel brute force with greater accuracy?

I think i already mentioned a technique i found where if you make a barrier shield which is very tightly sealed up against the periphery of your 'core', then it will extinguish emotion, like putting an overturned cup over a candle flame. But then that suggests that a more loose fitting shield could create a sort of build-up of emotionally resonating energy around oneself. It's also interesting that said technique doesn't impact the capacity for thought, even though thought and emotion are closely related.

I think it's also helpful to regard this immaterial layer of reality as having a multitude of layers itself. Almost like if material reality is a 'plane', like a page in a book, and early forays into interacting with the immaterial may be just interacting with a neighboring page, but there's a lot of pages! Perhaps an infinite number of pages. So energy working can be uh... very dimensionally complex in form. And can contain elements which are vaguely reminiscent of hyperlinks in html.

**
It is IMMENSELY useful to learn to astrally project or achieve an out of body experience or remote viewing sensibility, by some means. You can focus on the immaterial without it, but being OBE removes a ton of distraction, helps with perceptive feedback, and circumvents a good chunk of the effort of the 'focus' part of the equation.
**

Lastly, I find myself shifting more and more away from "visualizing" when doing energy manipulation. In many ways, visualizing is itself a sort of ritual format. A rather loosey goosey, freelance form, but still. I find myself leaning more on the sensation/perception of energy, and the sensation of control of energy, directly. Rather than envisioning it and then trying to connect effect with what's envisioned. So in a sense my "method" is increasingly on just using focus/will/intent/mental state to just "do" things, sans-technique. Although there is still method/technique in the manner which energy is moved/formed/imbued, there's not much technique in the approach to moving/forming/imbuing. As though energy manipulation is kinda like breathing, rather than something I have to think about how to accomplish or tap into.

All of this while bearing in mind that I feel like "energy manipulation" is a slightly inaccurate term for it. Like there must be a more accurate, more nuanced term, but I don't know what that term would be. Words are very limited things. Perhaps "effecting immaterial reality in accordance with Will & intent", which in turn can have some possible material effects.



There's also entity interaction. Solicitation of services, rendered by sentient beings which are innately immaterial. That can work well.
Although I think it depends a lot on the way in which such a being is entreated, as well as the ability and scale of the being. I'm not a fan of the idea of commanding an entity. I work with entities in a more in a "friends help friends" manner. Also, if you choose an entity based on the nature of what you hope to accomplish, you can often find an entity which is naturally inclined to do what you desire without your asking. In that case, you're more pointing an entity at a task, and just letting it do it's thing, with a bit of guidance only in it's point of focus. I think asking an entity which you don't know personally to do something is generally not all that effective.

Something like church could be used to do magic. I had a fair amount of background in 'holy spirit' work before quitting my former religion. It technically works very well. I tend to think of it as a sort of super-egregore approach to magic. (and I mean 'egregore' exactly as it's defined in wikipedia). Although usually such egregores are nitpicky about working with people who are not part of the group-think which creates them. Again, relationship with the thing affects efficacy.

I don't interact with "my mentor" in a particularly actionable way anymore. There was a time when I would ask her what the best approach might be. But after 7 years of fairly intensive instruction/training, she kinda kicked me out of the nest. I mean that as a positive thing, no lack of affection, just that you eventually need to proceed without training wheels, and fly on your own, to really master something. This is more related to my 'enlightenment path' rather than magical techniques though. I'm sure I could still pester her for advice on magical technique.

Perhaps of interest, is that she taught that the two types of magic which are the most potent in conflict or establishing pecking order, are:

- mind influencing effects. Kind of a broad topic really, with a lot of depth and nuance and intricacy. And though it may not sound flashy, it's probably the most potent there is. And mastering it has both offensive and defensive utility.

and

- a sort of dynamic sense of dimensional interaction. Such that you kinda shift your uh... planar presence such that things you don't want to touch pass through you as though you're transparent, while things you do want to touch, you do. Which is sort of like regular energy manipulation, but if you're playing 3-D chess against a 2-D player, the game will be lopsided as f%!k. If you're playing against another 3-D chess player though, then it becomes a sort of 'race to the top', in terms of constantly adjusting your plane. Which can lead to techniques like self-splintering to go at multiple planes at once, etc. But really 99% of entities you run into are 2-D chess players, or have a limited motility in 3-D chess.

perhaps distant third would be learning to use energy to channel energy in much greater quantities than you feel capable of manipulating directly. Bit of a kung-fu sensibility of redirecting momentum, rather than generating all of the force by hand.


In reply to the "or do you simply imagine the event you wish to see": I lean away from that, but I don't discount it. I like to get into the cogs and gears which make what I wish to see happen. But you can delegate 'intentions' to peripheral areas of higher consciousness, which may have an easier time intuiting the details of method. I kinda like to more break into the peripheral areas of higher consciousness and actively participate though.

There is definitely a difference though between "wishful thinking" and "impactful wishful thinking". The former is just daydreaming. The latter engenders fiddling with serendipity, entrainment (sometimes viewed as 'law of attraction'), and other axis which intersect with leveraging reality. I wonder if it would be amiss to say all magic is (or strives to be) impactful wishful thinking?

I still recommend that short essay by Frater U.D. on 'Models of Magick'. It's not THE framework for magical approaches, but it is A framework for organizing and labeling things. Within his labeling system, I lean most heavily into the Energy and Spirit models. With a perhaps slightly uncommon encroachment into the psychological model, through the lens of understanding consciousness/mind as being considerably broader in scope than 'brain' (both from a sort of mystic standpoint AND as a fairly scientific assessment of consciousness as a structure with extra-dimensional properties & aspects).

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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My mentor (or mentors? not sure how many there are actually) work very differently. I most often get pointed towards information sources which contain nuggets of information useful for what I happen to need to learn at any given time. From there I need to find and piece together the information. It's not very often that I'm given the information directly in a way like "Here you go! When you do X, Y happens." It has happened only couple of times but that's about it. It seems to be very important to my mentor that I learn to find, analyse and validate information by myself. I get minimal help, only to keep my learning going, but not enough for me to say that I'm actually being taught by some entity.
I can identify with that. Very much so in fact.
If I implied otherwise, I must have been focusing on a different aspect of the subject at hand :)
My past few weeks have now gone into taking the very first steps of figuring out how to do something else than simply protecting myself. I.e I'm in a transition phase, so to speak.
Be creative and fearless.
And remember negative data is still data. If you fail to invent the light bulb 100 times, you have not "failed". You have successfully identified 100 ways not to make a light bulb (although some of them might work quite well, with a slight tweak)

Looking back, I feel like trying to list what all "can be done" is just too broad to list.
But I'm really curious to see what someone newer to it attempts early on.

I'd love to donate any amount of the attacks I've been targeted with to interested parties. You can have mine if you want [gz]
Kath wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:13 am 'shrug' as long as it's interesting & informative.
If I can figure out how to do that, I'll let you know :)

Currently my learning is at the stage where I know too little to learn any more from the attacks that are coming my way. I need to learn something extra, before I can start learning from them again. I'm not sure what that "something extra" is though... (Shit. I just had a weird deja vu when typing that last sentence.)
writer's block.
the 'something extra' is actually a limitless sea of potential.

Neil Gaiman had an interesting approach to writer's block. He set aside 8 hours per day to be spent doing his job, writing. He didn't always know what to write though, everyone gets writer's block. So he made a rule for himself. For that 8 hours per day, he did not HAVE TO write anything at all, BUT he would not allow himself to do ANYTHING ELSE. So he could write, or do nothing at all for 8 hours. He said that after he instituted that rule, he never had any serious trouble with writer's block again. And I tend to believe him.

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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OneOfFourth wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:44 pm BTW, Kath:
I've been following your advice and learning things about myself. I've been doing shadow work now and then and trying to notice from where my thoughts and feelings are derived in my mind and trying to concentrate in the present moment, instead of staying in my random thoughts. I've noticed that I feel much more often what people are about to say to me. Fairly often I get this knowing about what exactly is the discussion about and what the upcoming sentence contains. I can then answer after few couple of words the answer to the sentence, even without hearing it. So something seems to be clicking in place in my mind by following your directions. Thanks!

About the shadow work:
I try to take note every time I get triggered by something. Then I know there's a clear mental wound festering which needs some more shadow work. But then I realized that it's possible that not all mental wounds trigger me. Some might actually make me desensitised, which is problematic: how can I notice those kinds of wounds that need healing? Maybe just by observing my thoughts and behavior?
hmm, sometimes traumas that we avoid thinking about are more severe than the ones which preoccupy our thoughts.

also trauma is a kinda voluntary thing. you have to sort of 'consent' to being shaken by an event/experience/feeling. Though typically people make such consent pre-consciously, it's not really all that deep down in the mind.

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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OneOfFourth wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:37 pm What's your usual method of doing magick as you describe it? Do you spell out intention without imagining energy, or do you imagine energy also, or do you simply imagine the event you wish to see, or something completely different?
sorry if my response to that was too long winded :P

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