Breaking the 4th wall

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Amor
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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Being of good cheer is important, but some entities exist at higher levels.

> I should start practising the exact opposite to what it represents.

Unless it learns by observing your thoughts

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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Last night I managed to gather couple of more "nails" to my collection. Here's the full list so far what the Chameleon has kept from me:

"Someone is trying to do something in me."
"There's psychic capital/funds/equity that's been gathering for me." (what the hell does that mean?!?)
"Something guides me to do things I feel are for the good but actually are not."
"Demon which fools me into giving permissions without me knowing."
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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Amor wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:40 am Behind the veil, I usually observe 2 passages that adverse entities use to enter the human mind space. Since their presence is concealed behind the veil, it is difficult, even for the better than average human to deal with them.

As far as I can see in your case the dark influences are entering behind the veil. They manage thoughts but are not possessing entities.
I came to the exact same conclusion through a completely different trail of thought. Then I remembered your above comment. I think there must be something to it. Here's what happened during last night:

I think I managed to catch the Chameleon and commanded it to undo what it had done to me. I felt an unusual sensation in my mind and saw tunnels, open doors and all kinds of things in my mind. I felt things started slowly unraveling in my mind. This kept going on for couple of minutes until I heard/felt a voice in my head saying "You have been busy." The feeling in my mind ended and nothing more unraveled to me. I believe someone commanded the Chameleon to stop following my orders.

About the things that started clicking into place during that experience:
To my surprise things didn't concern the 1980s at all, but the beginning of 2000s. So there might have been more than one event in my life when Chameleon like entity has been used on me. This would mean it's almost standard practise for some people, for some common ends.

This immediately brought to my mind the following thought:
When doing magick, or more mundane things, or when using Law of Attraction, you get a backlash from Natural Laws of the Universe if you don't follow its rules. In theory you can get around this if you could manipulate another person without him/her knowing to:

- have him/her obsessing enough over something that can be used to advance your agenda.
- have him/her in the right mental state for the Law of Attraction to take effect.

Given those two conditions are met, the one manipulating the person won't get the backlash at all really. The manipulation could be done easily by putting an entity or two into the victims mind which can then be commanded to make the person's thoughts/wants/feelings revolve around useful topics. Then the person does all the rest. It'll be the person's own free will which is being manipulated into deciding to do whatever is required. Then that person is responsible for getting the backlash from the Universe. In other words, people could be used as backlash buffers and worker drones when doing magick. There would be no theoretical upper limit to how much you could scale up this process.

The main thing is that if someone comes up with an idea which in theory is possible to implement, someone else has most probably thought about that exact same thing a long time ago and put that theory into practise. Maybe something like this is what's going on here? Who's to say it's not an on going thing on a much larger scale?

EDIT:
I just remembered you said this in another thread:

> Unenlightened humans can be captured and used for access to a subset of planetary energies.

Does that also fit what's being discussed here?
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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>There's psychic capital/funds/equity that's been gathering for me.

there is both good and bad karma. Both need to be discharged

>"You have been busy." The feeling in my mind ended and nothing more unraveled to me. I believe someone commanded the Chameleon to stop following my orders.

That was a comment from a positive being - at the end of the sequence of events.

>backlash from Natural Laws of the Universe if you don't follow its rules.

under-developed beings often want something they have not deserved - eventually they learn better

>the one manipulating the person won't get the backlash at all really

Our god is a god of love

>> Unenlightened humans can be captured and used for access to a subset of planetary energies.

>Does that also fit what's being discussed here?

you have started the escape process

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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Amor wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:39 am >"You have been busy." The feeling in my mind ended and nothing more unraveled to me. I believe someone commanded the Chameleon to stop following my orders.

That was a comment from a positive being - at the end of the sequence of events.
I'm not sure. Somehow it felt like it might have been the person who put the entity in me, or who carries on the same work as the one responsible for putting the entity in me. In other words: form my perspective it might actually have been the bad guy.

Amor wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:39 am >backlash from Natural Laws of the Universe if you don't follow its rules.

under-developed beings often want something they have not deserved - eventually they learn better
I really hope so. I would appreciate if they left me alone with their demonic attacks.

Amor wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:39 am >the one manipulating the person won't get the backlash at all really

Our god is a god of love
Unfortunately many people use magick to do evil things :(

Amor wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:39 am >> Unenlightened humans can be captured and used for access to a subset of planetary energies.

>Does that also fit what's being discussed here?

you have started the escape process
I hope so. At least it feels and looks like it.
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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>it might actually have been the bad guy

Go back in time to the event and look at the speaker. What experiments can you do?

>people use magick to do evil things

It may be more accurate to say many people are used to do evil things with magic

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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> Go back in time to the event and look at the speaker. What experiments can you do?

I did just that last night and the following happened:

I went back in my mind to the event and tried to look at the speaker but there was nothing to be seen.
Then I decided to turn my head (in my minds eye) to a loudspeaker that was broadcasting the person's voice and started following an energy cord that it was hooked up to. I followed the cord for a while and finally saw a blurry human torso connected to the cord. It turned away from me. I tried going around it but it always kept turning away. I grabbed it's shoulders and turned it around. The torso/face was way too blurry to tell anything about the person: kind of like something between jello and fog. I tried "peeling off" the blurry surface part of it but under it was more blurry stuff. I could not see what the person looked like.

I noticed that the above experiment was easy to do immediately after waking up during the night.

Also lots of other stuff happened during that night. Here's only really small part of it:
The moment I woke up early in the morning, I saw super fast changing images in my mind which is unusual for me. After they stopped I went back to them and stopped time to see what the images were about. They looked like matrices of data and formulas. I started following the image trail further and further. It looked like tunnel of light blue data of sorts. After following the data tunnel for quite awhile, the tunnel ended. The end of the tunnel looked like it had been torn apart. Like someone had severed it violently. That's where the trail ended.

I believe the data was meant to distract me and lead me astray. It's a fairly long story to write it all down in this thread so I won't probably do it (for now at least).
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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>torso/face was way too blurry

Form a spectrum from very dark/involutionary to very light/evolutionary. Move the face against the spectrum until it matches. Where is that?

>tunnel looked like it had been torn apart

Go back in time to see if that is a recent event. Be wary of the actor

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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Amor wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:14 am >torso/face was way too blurry

Form a spectrum from very dark/involutionary to very light/evolutionary. Move the face against the spectrum until it matches. Where is that?
I don't understand what that spectrum means.
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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A spectrum is a continuous sequence of vibrations. Put purely involutionary at one end, progressively changing to purely evolutionary at the other


Image

Why is this hard? Are you not permitted to use the device?

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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No. I did understand what the spectrum is. I didn't understand what involutionary means. Tried looking explanations on the internet what's the difference between evolution and involution, but didn't get satisfactory answer.

That being said, I have lots of things to report. The main thing is that I feel I made a major breakthrough. Your technique of going back in time to investigate things is a really powerful tool. I also used the spectrum idea while doing that, but my spectrum went from "spirit to human" so I could identify what I'm dealing with. Here's what happened early this morning when I woke up way before my alarm clock went off:

I went back to the moment/vision about the data tunnel which was severed. I moved front and back in time and noticed that it was severed in an instant at one specific moment of time. After being severed, the further part of the tunnel started to back off / it's end vaporized away so the other part of the tunnel went further and further away from me. I started following the tunnel and it just kept going on endlessly. The tunnel was turning to the right all the time so I thought it's probably a large circle, but I should have gone a full circle already. I moved my view point to high above the tunnel and noticed that it was in fact an incredibly huge and long spiral. So huge that the edges of it faded away from my vision. At that point I gave up trying to figure out where the end was. A short while after I realized I can just take a short cut and fly to the edge of the spiral. So I went back to the vision, flew to the edge and followed the tunnel to the end.

At the end of the tunnel was a dark slightly human shaped entity. I used my spectrogram to identify that it was a spirit and not a human. I commanded the spirit to tell me who commanded it to do this to me. The dark face peeled off the entity and the person's face that was revealed to me was my childhood's best friend. I felt surprised, but I had received couple of hints towards something like this earlier this month. But the exact person was a total surprise to me. I asked why he was doing this. I received the answer "Because you can't keep your mouth shut." I decided to leave it at that, since there's nothing I can really do more than has already been done: I wasn't receiving the manipulating information from him anymore.

I went back to the place and moment of the tunnel getting severed. There was some incredibly high velocity object which hit the tunnel and ripped it apart. The object was small and light in color, about the size of a portable radio from my childhood. It took a bit of effort to find the exact moment when the object was in my vision, it was that fast. I looked at the object and asked it to reveal who it was or who sent it. The side of the object showed a picture of the only person I hold dear in my life. It looks like I was given help to get out of the deep end of my troubles by this person.

I ended my vision and thought about what my childhood friend had said in the vision. He had accused me of doing something I was NOT aware of at all: I was speaking aloud their secrets without knowing it, probably starting early in my childhood. Knowing now what kinds of secrets we are most likely talking about, I can confidently say that there's evil behind those secrets. The world is a much better place when people understand how spirituality and magick can be used to manipulate people. Instead of keeping such techniques and methods a secret, they should be understood by much larger group of people so something can be done about it. At this point I heard a clear voice in my mind saying "You were born to do this." I felt those words were true, especially when I think what kinds of things have been driving me for the past decade and a half. I've tried to figure out how to make the world a better place and it has cost me dearly, but I have no intention to stop. I did the "look at loudspeaker and follow the cord" method to find who the voice belonged to. I saw a human shaped dark figure with face covered in darkness. I asked who it was and the face peeled off and I saw my own face. Maybe this was some higher part of myself speaking to my mind? I don't know, but it all made sense in a weird way.

Next I did a reality check if this could be a manipulation done by Person-X. Everything that this information pushes me towards doing goes fully against Person-X's agendas. So I highly doubt this was manipulation done by Person-X. So I'm probably fairly safe by saying all this information was not corrupted by a third party. This also means that Person-X is probably trying to stop me from learning and speaking aloud of their methods and techniques they use to manipulate and control people.

There's still one important test I really need to do in the near future. If I find anything odd or alarming, I'll report about it here.
Last edited by OneOfFourth on Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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Good!

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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Consider the Tzimtzum - not very well explained here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzimtzum

The Source of All radiates involutionary energy that gets darker and denser as it separates from the Source and manifests as Creation. At its extremity it is dark and material. At the same time the Source draws back to itself the dense matter so that it becomes lighter and more unified. This is evolutionary. This simultaneous process can be represented by the yin-yang symbol.

All beings are comprised of a combination of out-breath and in-breath with the composition cycling with daily living etc. Thus the new born human has a preponderance of out-breath energies as it builds a physical body and drives its parents to care for it.

When I first met the Tzimtzum it seemed to identify itself as "the revelation of the word".

Light and dark seem to me to be the in-breath and out-breath of Creation.

Evil may come where either dark or light is excessive. Thus when the mother burns out looking after the family that situation could be regarded as an excess of light, leading to a collapse in the personality through lack of food and rest.

Equally, the young child, originally helpless and possibly needing to manipulate the family in order to be fed, should eventually reduce the amount of dark energy it uses and learn how to share.

The natural duality of light and dark is not the same as good and evil. Arguably good is where there is a proper balance of dark and light and evil appears where there is willful imbalance of dark and light.

Thus good and evil are secondary effects of a fundamental duality - out-breath to separate existence and in-breath, drawing back to unity.

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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About yesterday and today: something which sends me messages has been adamant (more like demanding that I believe) about the "Chameleon entity" being a fae and has been persistently and strongly "highlighting" that fact for me. I'm not talking about how pop culture defines the fae, but what myths describe those spirits doing.

I checked what kinds of stories there are about those spirits and ran into description that some of them pride themselves of humans not being able to look at them for longer than a moment. They are said to be able to escape your mind and senses even if you focus on them. That sounded fairly familiar to me. The worrying thing was that the same information source mentioned that fae are the last thing you want to run into when dealing with spirits. This would explain why Chameleon entity has been so persistent and non-reacting to my attempts of getting rid of it, where demons have.

So now I need to take into consideration the possibility that fae spirits are real.

I also noticed that Chameleon is not the only persistent entity not reacting to my attempts to get rid of it:
This other being seemed to like the challenge of me trying to get rid of it really hard before I failed. Then it dawned on me to ask what it wants so I could get rid of it. It said "I want you to be more humble." Then I immediately understood that I need much more of healthy self-love and narcissism turned to the minimum. That makes much more balanced living. This in turn brought to my mind the text which mentioned that one should not think of the demons as evil, but as something who are doing their work on what you need in this life. I have to think about this more and investigate it however I can. Then again that entity/spirit/demon/whatever_it_is might just be tricking me.
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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>not think of the demons as evil, but as something which is doing it's work on what you need in this life.

That may be a human-centric view.

As the outbreath proceeds from The Source of All the flow needs to be made orderly and formed into separated intelligences and bodies suited to the experiential intentions of the Source.

Thus there are hierarchies of entities organising the condensing of dark separateness. That is how a newborn human has a functional body.

Despite human beliefs, the human species is a minor part of a vast million-dimensional parallel processing experience that will last until Beingness next withdraws from Existence

Meanwhile the human learns to manage its light-dark balance and to refine its energy body, discarding lower vibrations and acquiring and learning to use the substance of ever higher planes - eventually becoming suited to functions in the management of Existence

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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OneOfFourth wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:45 pm
Kath wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:57 pm But in the experience I mentioned, I was knocked out of my body into an OBE, and then my body was attacked immediately after, and then the entity fled, and I was sucked back into my body by the sensation of pain. The whole thing occurred over a matter of a few seconds, very hit & run. The manner in which my body was attacked was that it stuck it's hand in the side of my torso, and medically speaking, I suddenly had my one and only kidney stone. the pain increased over the next 24 hours until it was debilitating. basically the path between my kidney and bladder was blocked, and my kidney blew up like a balloon. Which "felt" like someone punching me in the kidney continuously.
Not an entity, but a trained mage.

_________/_________

- Make sure the non-potential ones don't wake up and don't learn magic.

The recruition process is very hostile:

If a person can be made to believe (falsely in their case) that his/her death is imminent, if done right, this trauma usually wakes them up. Then the person can be taught whats needed for them to be useful. This also has the benefit of the new recruit to stay in line, since he/she was just "saved from a certain death". The irony here is that it seems that they have very strict rules concerning how they actually interact with other people/recruits: they can torment and scare you as much as they can, but they aren't allowed to kill you, no matter how much they lie to you about it. But try telling yourself this when you suddenly get a terminal illness (or atleast are convinced you did) and these people tell you "if you join we can help you". It's easy to see why people join once they get thrown into the initiation process. Usually the initiation process is a long one: they start by destroying the person's life in any way they can, incuding mental/physical health, financial situation, by getting you into serious legal trouble, etc. Whatever they can come up with or manipulate you into to "make you more desperate when the time comes." They seem to have strict rules how and from where they're allowed to learn their occult knowledge / magick: you're not allowed come up with new things on your own.
I don't think it was a trained mage. It didn't behave like a human. And yes I know all about how humans can 'really' behave outside of the normal polite society. I mean it didn't have a human sense of attention span.

Perhaps a little backstory on the event:
I met someone online who was being tormented by the entity in question. I offered to "fix it". To be frank, I was just showing off (This was in maybe year 2 of a now 20 year long path mind you, and I was trying to be cool). The idea of putting in the concentration to track down and isolate an entity not directly interacting with me, but interacting with a stranger i met online, seemed like a pain in the ass. So instead i tried something more lazy. I told him to convey a message from me (an exceedingly insulting one), so as to taunt the entity into interacting with me, then i could interact with it, and be lazy about tracking it down. I explained how to 'tag' the message, by focusing on the subtle sensation of chatting with me online, etc. It was modestly clever really.

Anyway, it came to me really fast, and it was not subtle. It made its presence known by appearing in the mind's eye, taking on the faces of friends and loved ones, positioned nose to nose in front of my face, shouting obscenities. Not physically manifest, but it was pretty blatant in the mind's eye. I observed it for a while, and then I ended up having to do some overtime at work, so i just kinda "switched it off" and ignored it for a while. The overtime wasn't an inconvenience or anything, i was looking for the extra money really. But I just basically gave the entity a "please hold, your call will be answered in the order it was placed". This took several days. When i checked though, it was ever-present, doing the fake face appearance, and shouting obscenities, 24/7. Definitely anger issues. But no human mage is going to sit there all day for multiple days on end doing that. Unless they just set up a construct to do it, hmmm. anyway.

Well, eventually I had actual free time. And I was myself getting a bit annoyed by the entity, and I REALLY had a lot to learn about decorum and diplomacy back then... so I set about tracking it down, and roughing it up. There was still some tracking down to do, because the face in the mind's eye was a... like a projection, it wasn't directly behind the faces it was using, it had covered it's connection fairly carefully. But connections are my 'thing', so i sorted it out, went to it, said "hi" and roughed it up. On a spirit vs spirit level, it was no match. I thought it would be somewhat stronger than it was, so i "overdid it" a bit. It's difficult to describe that 'exactly', as many nonphysical things are ill suited to words in the common tongue. But basically I did damage to the integrity of the pattern or vibration of which it was made. But I didn't completely unravel it, or worse. I just hurt it, and gave it a warning.

Bear in mind that back then I was in that awkward stage of knowing enough to be dangerous, but not enough to be mindful or wise.

Anyway, a week later, after it (i think) had licked it's wounds, it came back at me, very suddenly, and knocked me out of body. It seemed like almost a "tackle", and it seemed to put it's all into it. Then it stuck it's hand in the back side of my (empty) body's torso, and then fled as quickly as it came. For just a moment I admired it's persistence and guts, not to mention delight at finding out that someone could be knocked out of their body, and then I was pulled back into body by a very intense physical pain.

To be fair, tit for tat. I wasn't being the nicest, neither was it, and we both got hurt. Also, i learned about the physical vulnerability issue. Hospital bills sucked though. Took the wind out of my sails for a while.

Anyway, point is... I don't see a human mage going on an angry tirade for days on end nonstop. Humans just get bored too easily, especially if the tactic was failing rather terribly at actually intimidating me. Again though, in hindsight, that might have been automated, so I don't completely discount your idea.

It was a very long time ago, so i'd prefer it not reflect too much on my current mentality.


As for the secret cults you mention and their recruiting methods, that sounds like a plausible way for humans to behave. But I haven't met anyone like that. Not that it would be fruitful anyway. I'm very coercion-adverse by nature. And my mentor isn't the sort to save one from peril. If i were surrounded by wolves, she'd only throw me a stick and say "be mighty" in a tone which subtly says "don't suck".

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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>so I set about tracking it down, and roughing it up.

I usually do at least one of:

- requiring the entity to show its light - if it does its attitude improves,
- giving it light/love from my heart
- sucking energy so that the entity gets small and quits, passing the energy out of my own system so as not to be contaminated
- locating the entity's supervisor and dealing with it

Of course I am wary of entities stronger than the friends minding my back

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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Amor wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:15 pm >so I set about tracking it down, and roughing it up.

I usually do at least one of:

- requiring the entity to show its light - if it does its attitude improves,
- giving it light/love from my heart
- sucking energy so that the entity gets small and quits, passing the energy out of my own system so as not to be contaminated
- locating the entity's supervisor and dealing with it

Of course I am wary of entities stronger than the friends minding my back
well, I was being a dumbass. all ability, no temperament.
I think i was partly rebelling against some of the admonishing "right way to do things" stuff I had been exposed to. I still fundamentally disagree with that sort of thing. Still a pet peeve. BUT, that doesn't mean running out and petulantly doing the exact opposite was brilliant of me ;)

I kinda did number 3, albeit hyper aggressively. same idea, but less mosquito attack, more shark attack.
you don't need to expel the energy, just isolate it until it's imbuement is fully dissolved. makes it harder for an entity to recoup if you don't leave any bits laying around

3 didn't work out. I weakened it, but I underestimated the entity's indignation.

I didn't finish it off when i could have. It didn't finish me off when it could have. I've come to see an unspoken respect in that. Maybe it would have been better for me (in terms of pain and hospital bills) if I had finished it off initially. For a while back then I thought that was my mistake. But, I don't think that anymore. I am glad I didn't.

"Now" i'd approach it with a casual friendliness. Kinda like your love/light idea, but toned way down, and not designed to drive it away ;)

But I wouldn't change anything. Things unfolded how they should.

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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Kath wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:36 pm I don't think it was a trained mage. It didn't behave like a human. And yes I know all about how humans can 'really' behave outside of the normal polite society. I mean it didn't have a human sense of attention span.

Anyway, point is... I don't see a human mage going on an angry tirade for days on end nonstop. Humans just get bored too easily, especially if the tactic was failing rather terribly at actually intimidating me. Again though, in hindsight, that might have been automated, so I don't completely discount your idea.
I think you're right. The attacker was most likely a spirit of some sort. Was it attacking you by its own agenda, that's a whole other topic. Who knows.

Kath wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:36 pm As for the secret cults you mention and their recruiting methods, that sounds like a plausible way for humans to behave. But I haven't met anyone like that. Not that it would be fruitful anyway. I'm very coercion-adverse by nature. And my mentor isn't the sort to save one from peril. If i were surrounded by wolves, she'd only throw me a stick and say "be mighty" in a tone which subtly says "don't suck".
I'm in the unfortunate situation that my awakening into the whole supernatural (I was an atheist) happened only after such mages had been harrassing me for awhile already. I realized only afterwards that many of the things I had experienced were etheric/esoteric in nature.

I've had no mentor of any kind. My only "mentor" has been the attacks that have been targeted at me quite often. I've just had to experiment with trial and error to see what might work for defending myself. Fortunately I've learned a thing or two already. I still have a long way to go to get even the basics nailed down. I did notice that something has helped me through synchronizities. No real idea what it actually is though. I only know that the attackers don't seem to like it helping me in anyway.

The mage group uses the number 37 as their "call card".
37 = 777 = 217
(as far as I've gathered)

I've had quite enough of them already and intend not to give in in any way even the slightest amount.
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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Kath wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:36 pm I explained how to 'tag' the message, by focusing on the subtle sensation of chatting with me online, etc.
I'm interested in learning what this "tagging" thing is and how it works. What can be done with it?
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

Post by Kath »

OneOfFourth wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:25 pm I'm in the unfortunate situation that my awakening into the whole supernatural (I was an atheist) happened only after such mages had been harrassing me for awhile already. I realized only afterwards that many of the things I had experienced were etheric/esoteric in nature.

I've had no mentor of any kind. My only "mentor" has been the attacks that have been targeted at me quite often. I've just had to experiment with trial and error to see what might work for defending myself. Fortunately I've learned a thing or two already. I still have a long way to go to get even the basics nailed down. I did notice that something has helped me through synchronizities. No real idea what it actually is though. I only know that the attackers don't seem to like it helping me in anyway.

The mage group uses the number 37 as their "call card".
37 = 777 = 217
(as far as I've gathered)

I've had quite enough of them already and intend not to give in in any way even the slightest amount.
I can definitely get the atheist viewpoint. If I weren't uh, if I didn't have a long list of personal experiences, I would be an atheist.
Technically I'm not really into "theism" though. More just... not all of the answers to the questions I had were in the textbooks. At one time I was in a religion, true believer and all that. I have a lingering disdain for dogma, bit of a sour aftertaste you could say. I adore science though, and I approach things with a scientific mindset (allowing for the issue that some things are more a sort of art, and need allowances for the artistic process). I kinda dual wield left & right brain in equal measure. The trick is knowing which is best for what.

Fending off attacks is actually an excellent learning method I think. I've always tended to learn more, and more rapidly, in the heat of such encounters than in countless hours of armchair theory or study. I remember one occasion, at a point when for me most spiritual conflict had become kinda monotonous and dull. I did something I am not prone to do. Because I was very tired, and had a busy schedule ahead of me, I asked my mentor to take care of an antagonistic entity. But she simple said "you're gonna want to take this one". Which was just the thing to say, because I knew then, that I stood to learn something new from the experience.

I wasn't looking for a mentor. Really quite the opposite at the time.

37 = 777 = 217?
Definitely a western esoteric group.
7+7+7=21, made from 7's, or 2+1 7's, or maybe you could call it 3 7's, 21x37 is 777. interestingly 37 times any 3 digit number such as 111, 222, 333, etc. when added together, equals the original number. for example: 333 = 3+3+3 = 9 x37 = 333, or 888 = 8+8+8=24x37=888 and so on. People who are really into numerology eagerly masturbate to this kind of stuff ;)

Personally, I don't find the classical western esoteric to be particularly interesting, at least until the modern & postmodern era with some more thoughtful exploration of ideas. Perhaps interesting isn't the right word, it can be interesting from a historical perspective to me, but I don't find it 'insightful', until fairly recently. It's just balls deep in monotheism, numerology, and some sketchy historical assertions.

Now I like the 'really' old western esoteria, like the actual metaphysical beliefs and thoughts in ancient khemet, sumer, archaic greece, etc. But that's part of why I find the middle ages western esoteric traditions to be a little annoying, because they butcher so much of the content shoehorning it into a judeo mindset. I'm sure even as inactive as this board is these days, someone will get a bee in their bonnet over my viewpoint there hehe.

Plus, i'm not 'against' ritual forms of practice, but ultimately i am more drawn to peer, penetratingly, into the pupils of the universe, than to get into a clever symbol which is hoped to perhaps do something if manipulated in a clever way. To me, a lot of the classical western esoteric, with symbols, pattern recognition (as numerology or otherwise), etc. is akin to focusing on the shadows on the wall in Plato's allegory of the cave. Also, really not a fan of dogma ;)

On the plus side, if you're gonna be harassed by mages, it's probably better to be harassed by highly ritualistic ones. They're not terribly adaptive and quick on their feet in technique. Not the greatest thinking outside the box. And the workings are kinda delicate.
(I'm definitely earning some hate mail by now, hehe)

Anyway, there 'are' some interesting and important concepts and understandings in classical western esoteria. I'm just not a fan of the format/approach until Crowley at the earliest. And while Crowley had a lot of interest to say, he really kinda pandered to the old school crowd a lot too.

I guess the annoying thing of conflicting with a ritualist would be that they would tend to create persistent effects, which if you bat the effect away, would tend to return, like a persistent gnat. Like a low voltage but very long discharging current.You gotta kinda pull the wings off the working, or use subterfuge and get it to play with a decoy, or create something persistent & automated to counter it, so that it's not an ongoing bother. If it involves entity solicitation, that can be more interesting. Entities tend to be more creative.

Help in the form of synchronicities? hmm, that makes me think the source of the help is omniscient in nature. Timelines happen "just so", and in the context of omniscient awareness, an extraordinarily gentle touch can be profound in impact. I think beings which are omniscient, by nature, have a greatly diminished sense of ego. Otherwise they'd be incredibly dangerous.

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

Post by Kath »

OneOfFourth wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:49 pm I'm interested in learning what this "tagging" thing is and how it works. What can be done with it?
Um, i just did a really rudimentary leading the person through the process of 'feeling me', and then said to just project that along with my message. like just "this person said to say this, this is what that person feels like"

It's a lot easier in any real-time communication. that sense of the personal presence of the other person.

My terminology may have made it seem like something more than it was hehe.

What could be done with it? potentially claiming something, or warding (if you think the sense of your connection to something carries any weight that way).

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

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Kath wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 7:23 am I can definitely get the atheist viewpoint. If I weren't uh, if I didn't have a long list of personal experiences, I would be an atheist.
Technically I'm not really into "theism" though. More just... not all of the answers to the questions I had were in the textbooks. At one time I was in a religion, true believer and all that. I have a lingering disdain for dogma, bit of a sour aftertaste you could say. I adore science though, and I approach things with a scientific mindset (allowing for the issue that some things are more a sort of art, and need allowances for the artistic process). I kinda dual wield left & right brain in equal measure. The trick is knowing which is best for what.
These days I've started making a clear distinction between science and scientism.

Science is good and great. Scientism is not. I must admit that when I was an atheist, I was more into scientism, i.e. "if it can't be explained by science, it's not real". Scientism is a religion of sorts, science is not. Glad I'm not into scientism anymore. These days I'm more into what you described there: keep scientific mindset but also a very open mind for "what could be" :)

About left/right brain balance: There was an interesting analysis in a video I saw a short while ago. It had an analysis of what happens to a person if either left or right side of the brain is clearly dominating mental processes of a person. If person lets either side of the brain be the dominant one, there will be mental balance issues which will fool the person into believing things that aren't necessarily true. Here's a quick recap of how the imbalance affect thinking:

If a human being's Left Brain Hemisphere becomes chronically dominant, the person will become ruled by selfishness and base desires, and develop a personality based in domination and control. I.e. "psychopathic master" mentality:
- Ridid sceptiscism
- Scientism
- Atheism
- Solipsism
- Moral realitivism
- Social darwinism
- Eugenics
- Authoritarianism

If a human being's Right Brain Hemisphere becomes chronically dominant, the person will become ruled by their own emotions and develop a personality based in submissiveness and naiveté. I.e. "willing slave" mentality:
- Naiveté
- Blind belief
- Religious extremism
- Solipsism
- Unworthiness
- Self-loathing
- Order-follower
- Willing slave

Left brain dominant world view: "survival is the highest goal of existence."
These are the hallmarks of dark occult.

Right brain dominant world view: "God controls everything. There is no free will. Everthing is predetermined."
These are the hallmarks of newage.

Note that both imbalances lead to solipsism. This means that person eventually believes that only thing real is "self" and everyone else in the universe are there just for that one single person, or others don't even exist at all, i.e. "everyone else are just my imagination". You can easily see how fast that kind of thinking can lead to psychopathic/psychotic behavior and ideologies, which ignores the wellbeing of everyone else in the world. Thus it'll be exremely likely that people suffering from solipsism will ignore evil in the world an let evil prevail. Even contributing to it, since they don't care. :(

So both extremes are really bad. The right place to be is in the middle, so one won't get fooled easily. Sounds like you are in the middle at the moment :) I used to be in the left, but not anymore. I'm close to the center also, I think...

Kath wrote: Fending off attacks is actually an excellent learning method I think. I've always tended to learn more, and more rapidly, in the heat of such encounters than in countless hours of armchair theory or study. I remember one occasion, at a point when for me most spiritual conflict had become kinda monotonous and dull. I did something I am not prone to do. Because I was very tired, and had a busy schedule ahead of me, I asked my mentor to take care of an antagonistic entity. But she simple said "you're gonna want to take this one". Which was just the thing to say, because I knew then, that I stood to learn something new from the experience.
Yep, you're right saying that in a conflict person learns fastest. I think there's even a psychology study on this very subject. Brain goes into "super learning mode" when it feels that it's in danger. Thus you need to learn fast or get ran over by a group of mammoths, etc. Makes sense :) Still it's not fun being in the receiving end of things when you have to quickly learn something you have no idea how to do what needs to be done to survive the situation. But following intuition usually helps a lot in finding answers and solutoins to sticky situations.

Kath wrote: 37 = 777 = 217?
Definitely a western esoteric group.
7+7+7=21, made from 7's, or 2+1 7's, or maybe you could call it 3 7's, 21x37 is 777. interestingly 37 times any 3 digit number such as 111, 222, 333, etc. when added together, equals the original number. for example: 333 = 3+3+3 = 9 x37 = 333, or 888 = 8+8+8=24x37=888 and so on. People who are really into numerology eagerly masturbate to this kind of stuff ;)
Ah, I didn't know those numbers had such properties. Then again I'm not into numerology at all, with the exception of integrating my own meanings to specific numbers in synchronicities so I get clear answers with minimal amount of deciphering when receiving messages through synchronizities.

Kath wrote: but ultimately i am more drawn to peer, penetratingly, into the pupils of the universe, than to get into a clever symbol which is hoped to perhaps do something if manipulated in a clever way. To me, a lot of the classical western esoteric, with symbols, pattern recognition (as numerology or otherwise), etc. is akin to focusing on the shadows on the wall in Plato's allegory of the cave. Also, really not a fan of dogma ;)
Agreed. I believe people are often looking at side products of magick, instead of trying to find out what the magick itself is. That been said, my personal view on things currently is that magick in it's fundamental nature is much more simple than people tell themselves it to be. When you look past the traditions and methods, very simple "truths" start to emerge from the sea of information. You just need to simplify and throw away the traditional decoration. What will eventually be left is X amount of fairly refined concepts instead of tons of books worth of details after details to get things working even on the most basic level.

My own current explanation at the moment is that everything in the universe is a pattern. You, me, any of the spirits, actions, events, emotions triggered by things, cause and effect, etc. Things are linked together in infinite number of ways and you can look at them from different perspectives: patterns emerge, which describe what things affect thing X you're currently observing. Then you can see what in turn affects those things etc. Thus if you do magick, it essentially works through those patterns, adjusting them ever so slightly here and there, to make it much more probable that the final outcome is what you asked for with your spell. In other words: absolutely everything is part of a one grand pattern that covers every single thing in the whole universe. Some patterns are connected so that they have much more intelligent behavior in their vicinity (humans, animals, spirits) than others. (cars, shoes, gravity, fire, wind, car crashes, etc.)

Exactly like "6 degrees of separation": Draw a graph of every single person in the world and draw links between everyone who they know personally. Now you can trace a path from any one person to any other person in the world, just by following those links between people each of them happen to know personally. It's been said that there's maximum of 6 links you have to step through before you reach anyone in the world. That's one filtered perspective on how to view the patterns: links of people who know each other. Now imagine the same thing, but the links describe through time what affects your neighbours dog's attention throughout its day tomorrow... You probably get the idea from this explanation.

Kath wrote: Personally, I don't find the classical western esoteric to be particularly interesting...

On the plus side, if you're gonna be harassed by mages, it's probably better to be harassed by highly ritualistic ones. They're not terribly adaptive and quick on their feet in technique. Not the greatest thinking outside the box. And the workings are kinda delicate.
(I'm definitely earning some hate mail by now, hehe)
From what I've gathered, the mage group is anything but classical and ritualistic. They seem to be highly modern, sophisticated and quickly adaptive to situations. Very refined and effective methods and techniques.

They might have rituals also, but I highly doubt it involves people dressed in capes, chanting with candles in hands around pentagrams. It's not how they seem to operate. If they have rituals, they probably use modernized version of it by creating art or performances with very specific mindset, so they can do it publicly without anyone realizing what's actually happening.

Kath wrote: I guess the annoying thing of conflicting with a ritualist would be that they would tend to create persistent effects, which if you bat the effect away, would tend to return, like a persistent gnat. Like a low voltage but very long discharging current.You gotta kinda pull the wings off the working, or use subterfuge and get it to play with a decoy, or create something persistent & automated to counter it, so that it's not an ongoing bother. If it involves entity solicitation, that can be more interesting. Entities tend to be more creative.
That would explain why certain annoying things keep coming back on a constant basis. Maybe a ritual or two was targeted on me?

Kath wrote: Help in the form of synchronicities? hmm, that makes me think the source of the help is omniscient in nature. Timelines happen "just so", and in the context of omniscient awareness, an extraordinarily gentle touch can be profound in impact. I think beings which are omniscient, by nature, have a greatly diminished sense of ego. Otherwise they'd be incredibly dangerous.
Exactly. The butterfly effect. It's left to be seen what my source of synchronizities is up to eventually.
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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

Post by Kath »

OneOfFourth wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:19 pm These days I've started making a clear distinction between science and scientism.
yeah
the beating heart of science is "I don't know, but I wanna know, and to do that I wanna know how to know"
but so many think science is "I know", as though science was smug, and oblivious to the uncertainty principal. (and i know I'm somewhat abusing the term uncertainty principal, it's intentional)
Science is good and great. Scientism is not. I must admit that when I was an atheist, I was more into scientism, i.e. "if it can't be explained by science, it's not real". Scientism is a religion of sorts, science is not. Glad I'm not into scientism anymore. These days I'm more into what you described there: keep scientific mindset but also a very open mind for "what could be" :)
I think technically I've never been "exactly an atheist". Although when i was a true believer in a religion, I even then gravitated towards the company of atheists because I really enjoy pragmatic realism in the manner of thinking process.

As a child I was a bit of a mystic-leaning but also atheist-leaning person, then i became a religious person (due largely to a lifelong indoctrination process). Then eventually I fell out from that. What is interesting, is that in order to break away from the religion, it required the formation of an emotional wedge. Which is not to say that I quit my religion because god hurt my feelings, but rather, because I for a time distanced myself, I was able to see the seams at the edges of the circular logic systems which kept me in the fold. In particular the manipulation of "faith" as a mental process. How fear of un-faith, and having faith on a pedestal of virtue, was in fact acting as a sort of cognitive limiter. And then eventually how my religion was a sort of paradigmatic lens which warped all that I beheld. As, I think, all paradigms do, to be fair. Scientism no less so.

Once out of that, I was left with a kind of void of ideology. But instead of an intimidating thing, it was a relief. I knew then that I don't know, I wanted to know, but I made a sort of commitment to not pretending to know what I don't know. To not filling the void with bullshit. Better it be empty than full of garbage. Much of my disagreement with those who are into the occult, stems from the basic premise that I disdain dogma and faith. Likewise the dogma and faith of scientism. And organized religion. And ultimately of cultural and species-centric paradigmatic distortions.

Much like a true lover of science, I am excited to find out that I was wrong about something. That has only ever been the herald of a broader, more vast, more interesting and engaging reality.
About left/right brain balance: There was an interesting analysis in a video I saw a short while ago. It had an analysis of what happens to a person if either left or right side of the brain is clearly dominating mental processes of a person. If person lets either side of the brain be the dominant one, there will be mental balance issues which will fool the person into believing things that aren't necessarily true. Here's a quick recap of how the imbalance affect thinking:

If a human being's Left Brain Hemisphere becomes chronically dominant, the person will become ruled by selfishness and base desires, and develop a personality based in domination and control. I.e. "psychopathic master" mentality:
- Ridid sceptiscism
- Scientism
- Atheism
- Solipsism
- Moral realitivism
- Social darwinism
- Eugenics
- Authoritarianism

If a human being's Right Brain Hemisphere becomes chronically dominant, the person will become ruled by their own emotions and develop a personality based in submissiveness and naiveté. I.e. "willing slave" mentality:
- Naiveté
- Blind belief
- Religious extremism
- Solipsism
- Unworthiness
- Self-loathing
- Order-follower
- Willing slave

Left brain dominant world view: "survival is the highest goal of existence."
These are the hallmarks of dark occult.

Right brain dominant world view: "God controls everything. There is no free will. Everthing is predetermined."
These are the hallmarks of newage.
I read once a book on freudian psychology. It attempted to sort of translate the id, ego, and superego, into "the child, the parent, and the adult", where both the child and the parent (id and superego) were both sort of warped and immature. It outlined how we as people fall into these frames of mind, often as a reaction to someone else's frame of mind. I'm not really a fan of freud, plagiaristic hack, and victorian era 'shock jock' really. But, that book was very interesting.

In some ways I think it relates to what you're saying about right & left brain. Although, interestingly, if you look at your lists for left and right brain, the qualities of religious extremism, and authoritarianism, often have a strong correlation, even though here they are listed as having divergent roots/habits of thought.

In your 2 lists, i lean a bit to the left. But only because moral relativism and social darwinism are I think more reflected in the nature of the universe, and I'm kind of a fan of the universe.

Ultimately I like to just kinda make myself aware of what the heart is good at (and not good at), and what the brain is good at (and not good at) and delegate tasks accordingly. And avoid falling into either the child or the parent mindset in any broadly encompassing way. On a more neuroscience level, i'm a very lateral thinker. On a more poetic level, i flow like water, I abuse the terrain a bit, but also adapt to it and work around it.

Now that I think of it, this might be somewhat prerequisite as an attitude for other more interesting evolving matters of consciousness.
Note that both imbalances lead to solipsism. This means that person eventually believes that only thing real is "self" and everyone else in the universe are there just for that one single person, or others don't even exist at all, i.e. "everyone else are just my imagination". You can easily see how fast that kind of thinking can lead to psychopathic/psychotic behavior and ideologies, which ignores the wellbeing of everyone else in the world. Thus it'll be exremely likely that people suffering from solipsism will ignore evil in the world an let evil prevail. Even contributing to it, since they don't care. :(
I'm not really focused on the good/evil axis myself. it's just one of infinite arbitrary ways to lay a tape measure on the universe. Though it does relate to the interaction of beings, where we have innate instincts of social behavior and all a mutual desire to exists and flourish. So it's somewhat more relevant to living life than the salty/sweet axis or the hot/cold axis ;)

soliplism... I think anyone who thinks they have none of that is full of shit ;)
But I don't think having 'some' of it is undesirable. Selflessness and selfishness are both equally misguided ways to screw up I think.
If 50% soliplistic is an ideal, I probably lean a bit more like 60%. And yet, I think that's kinda where the "small self" is. The underlying nature of consciousness and reality... I think leans rather anti-soliplistic. In the sense that individual identity is an artifact of incompleteness of being 'whole', where each 'bit' of reality is a note in a larger melody.

I guess the axis I hold most interesting is the one where at one end is a high degree of individual will, but a low degree of ..lets call it "leverage on the larger system of reality", because the focus on self is 'more finite'. And at the other end is a broader engagement to more of reality (less finite), but a diminished sense of self or individual will. And my interest there is kinda to sort out a multiplicity of states of being, in concert. What does that axis look like in 5-D? You can wrap your fingers around small things and move them, or you can press your fingers against something large, and not move it, but what if that is an incomplete understanding of the nature of things?

Maybe I am theistic. But I regard god as the sum total of all reality in all levels and forms. Some say it goes "Ommm". Personally I think it makes all imaginable and unimaginable sounds at once, in different places and times. What does it think? nothing, and everything. Which is not particularly useful information for a finite being with finite interests, hehe. I want to touch it, and not superficially. Become a cone-shaped thing with a sharp point which likes cherry pie and the color of the leaves in autumn, and an open end which extends into the everything of everything. Maybe a cone emanating from self is an intensely soliplistic model of the universe, but then again, I think the sharp point (self) is just a frame of reference really. But should large things be moved? Everything is already moving. Maybe they're moving in the best way already. Maybe small self moves little things, and large self communes with the grander concert of flowing motion?
What about medium sized things???????!!!!! hehehe

Yep, you're right saying that in a conflict person learns fastest. I think there's even a psychology study on this very subject. Brain goes into "super learning mode" when it feels that it's in danger. Thus you need to learn fast or get ran over by a group of mammoths, etc. Makes sense :) Still it's not fun being in the receiving end of things when you have to quickly learn something you have no idea how to do what needs to be done to survive the situation. But following intuition usually helps a lot in finding answers and solutoins to sticky situations.
Also though, there's the unforseen things which the imagination can't provide.
For example, from an armchair, one might imagine the concept of rocket propulsion. Contain a substance with mass, and expand it so that it pushes the container. But when trying to 'apply' theory, suddenly the shape of the nozzle becomes of utmost import, and you hadn't really considered the shape of the nozzle, you'd just been thinking about the fluid dynamics of expansion against a directionally contained field. But now you're scrambling to understand how the nozzle should be shaped to best apply directionality. And then, OHHHH, altitude affects the surrounding air pressure which actually changes the ideal parameters of the nozzle... and then OMG, it's tipping over! This thing needs fins, and a gyroscope! How the hell do you make the gyroscope talk to the fins? and what do you do when above the atmosphere and the fins have no leverage?? And it goes from an idea of how things would work, to a much more fleshed out thing, which could actually work in practice.

And it seems you need to overcome more "thwarting variables" when in a conflict. Like a torture test of your ideas. And it lights a fire under your butt which makes you improvise FAST, drawing on instinct and intuition more dynamically than you would otherwise.

Plus you can observe the opposition and steal all their methodology & understandings.

I'm not into numerology at all
me either. I just read a lot. strip mining for insights.
personally I think numerology is more kinda born from the same place that makes us feel like we have encompassed a thing in understanding when we label & categorize it. I think it can be utilitarian to do so, but it falls far short of truly sating the impulse to encompass something in understanding, entire.

A buddha once said "all words are lies", a statement which I think bears meticulous contemplation, given human nature and the labeling and measuring of everything. Not so much that we don't know what we measure and label, but that measurement and labeling can lead to a sort of idolatry of the measurements and labels of things, as something distinct from the essential nature of things. Words an an abstraction, reductive always, and considered in a vacuum from the entirety and essence of the subject matter itself, often misleading or distracting.

Mind you, I think if more than one sentient being is similarly driven, then such things could contain a meta of usefulness born from a sort of memetic or sigilistic or egregoric principal. Like if a group of minds considers a number magical, then it may be, but because a group of minds is focusing thusly, rather than because of the number itself. But it's not really on my radar of interests.

I believe people are often looking at side products of magick, instead of trying to find out what the magick itself is.

I don't make a habit of saying "can you give me that fish there?", I'd much rather say "can you teach me to fish?", or even "what do you think about fish?". Much of what people try to accomplish with magic, especially entity interaction, and/or or prayer, seems to me a little like pan handling. Instead of "give us this day our daily bread", or "make my crush like me more", I'd rather know "how can I 'be' more interesting?", "how does one make bread?", what is bread really? what is interest? in a nutshell "?" not "!"
That been said, my personal view on things currently is that magick in it's fundamental nature is much more simple than people tell themselves it to be. When you look past the traditions and methods, very simple "truths" start to emerge from the sea of information. You just need to simplify and throw away the traditional decoration. What will eventually be left is X amount of fairly refined concepts instead of tons of books worth of details after details to get things working even on the most basic level.
Some, many probably, here and elsewhere, wouldn't be overjoyed at the idea of discarding valued traditions ;)
This general vein of the conversation reminds me a bit of the parable of the 3 blind men and the elephant.

Also, personally i really look for the point at which a list of understood ideas kinda coalesces into a sensibility on the art of a thing.
Sort of like how catching a ball could be looked at as a complex math problem, but at some point, the math of the process can kinda evolve into an instinctual understanding and then you can really play.


My own current explanation at the moment is that everything in the universe is a pattern. You, me, any of the spirits, actions, events, emotions triggered by things, cause and effect, etc. Things are linked together in infinite number of ways and you can look at them from different perspectives: patterns emerge, which describe what things affect thing X you're currently observing. Then you can see what in turn affects those things etc. Thus if you do magick, it essentially works through those patterns, adjusting them ever so slightly here and there, to make it much more probable that the final outcome is what you asked for with your spell. In other words: absolutely everything is part of a one grand pattern that covers every single thing in the whole universe. Some patterns are connected so that they have much more intelligent behavior in their vicinity (humans, animals, spirits) than others. (cars, shoes, gravity, fire, wind, car crashes, etc.)
I like that.
I'd probably have wrapped it up in different words which would make it sound like a different paradigm, but I think I'd be saying much the same thing.

Exactly like "6 degrees of separation": Draw a graph of every single person in the world and draw links between everyone who they know personally. Now you can trace a path from any one person to any other person in the world, just by following those links between people each of them happen to know personally. It's been said that there's maximum of 6 links you have to step through before you reach anyone in the world. That's one filtered perspective on how to view the patterns: links of people who know each other. Now imagine the same thing, but the links describe through time what affects your neighbours dog's attention throughout its day tomorrow... You probably get the idea from this explanation.
Makes me think of a quote: "God does not roll dice with the universe" ...which is a theoretical physics quote, not a religious one ;)

If they have rituals, they probably use modernized version of it by creating art or performances with very specific mindset, so they can do it publicly without anyone realizing what's actually happening.
Well that sounds extremely prevalent in recent years. But I don't wanna wax political here [wink]
Maybe a ritual or two was targeted on me?
i dunno *shrug*
I just know that persistent effects tend to require different counters than transient effects.

Exactly. The butterfly effect. It's left to be seen what my source of synchronizities is up to eventually.
perhaps more interestingly, omniscient across a multiplicity of timelines & potentials, which i think is an dramatically larger in scope.
sort of beyond just the line which the universe moves through time potentiality, but also the breadth & scope of the potentiality field itself, and the universe as a clockwork object with inertia within it.

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Re: Breaking the 4th wall

Post by OneOfFourth »

Kath wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:56 pm Once out of that, I was left with a kind of void of ideology. But instead of an intimidating thing, it was a relief. I knew then that I don't know, I wanted to know, but I made a sort of commitment to not pretending to know what I don't know. To not filling the void with bullshit. Better it be empty than full of garbage. Much of my disagreement with those who are into the occult, stems from the basic premise that I disdain dogma and faith. Likewise the dogma and faith of scientism. And organized religion. And ultimately of cultural and species-centric paradigmatic distortions.
That's a great place to be in my opinion. The hard part is figuring out what is bullshit and what is not. Maybe one way to go about it would be that if you know couple of things that are really true, it's often easy to logically determine causes & effects from that which don't feel random. I.e. they paint a specific clear picture of something.

I've noticed that when you have 2+ nuggets of truth that are somehow related to each other (even in a distant way), you can start drawing conclusions from them which make surprising amounts of sense. This usually suggests which info bits are true and which are not.

Kath wrote: Much like a true lover of science, I am excited to find out that I was wrong about something. That has only ever been the herald of a broader, more vast, more interesting and engaging reality.
Same here. The more open mind you have, the easier it is to notice new and odd things that lead you to new discoveries.

I also try to "fail fast" when piecing together information. I.e. if I've understood something wrong, I try to find that out as fast as possible. Unfortunately it's easier said than done, when going on the first steps on personal esoteric journey. More knowledge and experience makes the "failing fast" process faster (confirmation of what's true and what's not).

Kath wrote: In your 2 lists, i lean a bit to the left. But only because moral relativism and social darwinism are I think more reflected in the nature of the universe, and I'm kind of a fan of the universe.
To me personally, morality is not relative. You first have to define what is Right and what is Wrong. Here's how someone put it so eloquently:

1. Wrong is an action which steals or destroys other person's property. Property isn't limited to physical objects, but also includes freedom, life, Rights, etc.
2. Everything else is a Right. In other words: Right is an action that when taken, does not cause any harm to other sentient beings.

Moral actions are based on Rights.
Immoral actions are based on Wrongs.

I hold that as a truth :) Those stem from the Natural Law, i.e. the law of the Universe.

Kath wrote: But I regard god as the sum total of all reality in all levels and forms. Some say it goes "Ommm". Personally I think it makes all imaginable and unimaginable sounds at once, in different places and times. What does it think? nothing, and everything.

But should large things be moved? Everything is already moving. Maybe they're moving in the best way already. Maybe small self moves little things, and large self communes with the grander concert of flowing motion?
What about medium sized things???????!!!!! hehehe
Maybe one way to put it is that "god is the law of the universe"; everything works though the laws that god has set into this reality? :)

Kath wrote: Also though, there's the unforseen things which the imagination can't provide.
For example, from an armchair, one might imagine the concept of rocket propulsion.
...
...
And it seems you need to overcome more "thwarting variables" when in a conflict. Like a torture test of your ideas. And it lights a fire under your butt which makes you improvise FAST, drawing on instinct and intuition more dynamically than you would otherwise.

Plus you can observe the opposition and steal all their methodology & understandings.
Exactly. That's the upside of my experiences when getting attacked :)

Nothing can replace actual real world practical hands-on experience and knowledge. That's the testbed for all things we learn in life. If it doesn't work in real life after lots of practise, there's probably something wrong.

Kath wrote:
I'm not into numerology at all
me either. I just read a lot. strip mining for insights.
personally I think numerology is more kinda born from the same place that makes us feel like we have encompassed a thing in understanding when we label & categorize it. I think it can be utilitarian to do so, but it falls far short of truly sating the impulse to encompass something in understanding, entire.
Agreed. Numerology feels to me like it tries to categorise/compartmentalize everything wayyy too much. Kinda like "everything in the world is either a potato or not a potato." Well... yeah... but.... [unsure]

Kath wrote: Mind you, I think if more than one sentient being is similarly driven, then such things could contain a meta of usefulness born from a sort of memetic or sigilistic or egregoric principal. Like if a group of minds considers a number magical, then it may be, but because a group of minds is focusing thusly, rather than because of the number itself. But it's not really on my radar of interests.
I believe it applies to everything: numbers, words, symbols, concepts, etc. If lots of people believe a thing X to be of type Y, it quickly starts to symbolize Y in people's minds and people start using it in such contexts. Symbols and concepts hold all sorts of power in the human mind. If sigils can be made, then surely general public can give power to symbols also, unconsciously.

To me it feels exactly the same as a magick practitioner praying to / conjuring / summoning a specific well known saint or demon to help out in life's difficulties. Those saints/demons have well established reputations on certain things and thus have the power to make people call for their help.

Compare that to Ronald McDonald: he doesn't wield such power in people's minds. No one goes praying or summoning for Ronald McDonald when doing magick. On the otherhand Ronald McDonald wields immense power to make people willingly cause themselves obesity and heart diseases. Now that's a power most demons would be envious of. All this power and we're only talking about a fictional character. It's a whole other story if all this gives birth to new spirits, which somehow reflect people's subconscous beliefs/actions related to all things McDonald's.

Kath wrote: I don't make a habit of saying "can you give me that fish there?", I'd much rather say "can you teach me to fish?", or even "what do you think about fish?". Much of what people try to accomplish with magic, especially entity interaction, and/or or prayer, seems to me a little like pan handling. Instead of "give us this day our daily bread", or "make my crush like me more", I'd rather know "how can I 'be' more interesting?", "how does one make bread?", what is bread really? what is interest? in a nutshell "?" not "!"
And by doing things that way (your way) you automatically steer away from harming other people, which is great :) You're using esoteric knowledge/research/journey to make a better version of yourself; you're on a mission to transform/change yourself. There's nothing inherently bad in it and never will be. It's morally super safe way to do esoteric things. It's also the wise way, since aquiring knowledge and skills is the only proper currency we have, in addition to time. Time, knowledge and skills are basis for everything humanity has ever achieved and done.

Kath wrote: Some, many probably, here and elsewhere, wouldn't be overjoyed at the idea of discarding valued traditions ;)
This general vein of the conversation reminds me a bit of the parable of the 3 blind men and the elephant.

Also, personally i really look for the point at which a list of understood ideas kinda coalesces into a sensibility on the art of a thing.
Sort of like how catching a ball could be looked at as a complex math problem, but at some point, the math of the process can kinda evolve into an instinctual understanding and then you can really play.
To me personally, traditions = dogma. All the things I learn, must prove themselves to be both usable and true. I'm not especially looking for the complexity or simplicity of the thing I learn. Just that it works and it holds true. I also try to break it into smaller parts to figure out which parts are just extra fat and which are the important parts that actually make it work.

I know I don't become popular by investigating things and scrutinizing them. But that's how I've always approached learning things. I have never been able to just accept something to be true because someone says so. I always have to test it myself to get peace of mind on the topic.

Someone: "That stove is really hot. You'll burn your finger if you poke it."
Me: *pokes the stove with finger* --> "Auch! Yep! It did get burned!"

Kath wrote: Makes me think of a quote: "God does not roll dice with the universe" ...which is a theoretical physics quote, not a religious one ;)
Same source said something about spooky action in a distance :)

Kath wrote:
Maybe a ritual or two was targeted on me?
i dunno *shrug*
I just know that persistent effects tend to require different counters than transient effects.
Hmm, any pointers on this topic?

Kath wrote:
Exactly. The butterfly effect. It's left to be seen what my source of synchronizities is up to eventually.
perhaps more interestingly, omniscient across a multiplicity of timelines & potentials, which i think is an dramatically larger in scope.
sort of beyond just the line which the universe moves through time potentiality, but also the breadth & scope of the potentiality field itself, and the universe as a clockwork object with inertia within it.
Yep. That's probably what's required to be able to manipulate synchronizities.
Seeker of truth.
God is the thought of/about something.

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