How to undo a spell/send it back

[isis.auset5]

My mom was 'cursed', you can say, about 7 years ago. Since then, her life was never the same again. Financial problems, serious health problems, etc etc, and so on. Questions:

1. How can I find out who did this to her?
2. How do I undo it?

You guys, I am aware that everything you do will return to you threefold and that is why, if taking care of this implies even more negative consequences for her, I'd like for you to tell me how I can undo it for her. I'm not worried about what can happen to me, as long as it's taken care of. Also ... please don't advise me any prayers to God, because I don't follow him.

Thank you.

[Lucius]

Hello Isis.
Lucky for you, you've come to the right place.

I am a consultant exorcist of Scion- Exorcist of House RavenCroft. I am very knowledgeable about curses and the like, if you wish, I will take on your case and help you out.

First though, can I clarify that rule rule of threefold is well... not really a rule as such. It is debatable, I personally don't believe in it, I think if you believe in it, it will be true. Be careful not to say that to some Wiccans though ha ha- lovely bunch really!

So yeah, if you send me an email ([email protected]) telling me you and your mothers location (city, countr) and basic background, and we'll take it from there.

Yours
Lucius RavenCroft.
Coven Leader of Scion- RavenCroft Coven, London.
Exorcist of house RavenCroft.
Consultant Exorcist.

[sonko]

listen, if your mum has healthy problem, that is enough to cause financial problems. I think what you need to find the what your mum is suffering from and maybe some healing spells.

[Lord Ferocia]

One of the greatest plagues of humanity at present, is the inability to understand the necessity of the ordeal. This idea of a curse bringing about some set of problems is an illusion.

All things occur for a particular reason based upon the needs of the "student". The world is a great Teacher, and all must be forced along the path, sometimes kicking and screaming as it were. The "problem" arises out of refusal to understand the facts, or understand what it is building, or perhaps what is necessary to the task. When confronted with any severe set of conditions, first accept it fully, look at it with clean eyes, and peer into the Heart of it. The heart of it is what the overall conditions speak to, and they are easy to read if one but truly Look. Once you determine the Heart of these conditions, one can evoke the proper force to change the weak aspects within in order to overcome it.

The greatest rewards are found in resistance, for without friction, there can never be motion.

Lord Ferocia

[Ramscha]

All things occur for a particular reason based upon the needs of the "student". The world is a great Teacher, and all must be forced along the path, sometimes kicking and screaming as it were. The "problem" arises out of refusal to understand the facts, or understand what it is building, or perhaps what is necessary to the task. When confronted with any severe set of conditions, first accept it fully, look at it with clean eyes, and peer into the Heart of it. The heart of it is what the overall conditions speak to, and they are easy to read if one but truly Look. Once you determine the Heart of these conditions, one can evoke the proper force to change the weak aspects within in order to overcome it.

I know this argument of a teaching and determined world far too well. The problem I have with that is the following:
A person with a geneteic disorder who dies on it a few years or months later or even dies in the womb of its mother


A guy/girl corring the streat and gets hit by a car, dieing from it



Millions of people suffering on hunger, dieseases and poverty, born in it and often die in the same environment as childs some months or years later.


As one who seemingly has the answer why the universe teaches, tell me, What the fuck wants the Universe teach those people with those things?

If those things happen to these people for a reason so that they learn, tell me what I learn as a baby when cancer cells run through my body eating it up from the inside without stopping. WHAT DO I LEARN?

Or is this just a ignorant way to justify what happens on this planet righ now in this moment every second and lean back because "the universe" will solve everything?

TELL US!!

Ramscha

[Lord Ferocia]

Ramscha,

The question you ask is a good one, and strikes hard at the core of Magick, and of reality itself. One of the greatest questions, often not fit for those uninitiated as it often rings as both untrue as well as dismissive. It is neither. I will try to explain, because I feel it has not been said properly in many areas of the occult.

To put it simply, these sufferings are illusions, they are but shadows. These "others" are part of a great play put on for you, and you alone! This is NOT to say, we should be indifferent to these evils, for this truth is kept secret and hushed for many, so that the great illusion of life may forge them accordingly in it's fire.

In order to explain the foundation for this truth, I must speak of a bit of science. Admittedly, it is science not yet proven, but still relevant and the tidbits that are becoming more clear to today's physicists place a hand on the shoulder of those who have spoken this truth before (I suggest you read the Tao of Physics, as an example). There is a real question of the observer in quantum mechanics, and exactly who, or how the probability wave that sets in motion our reality is collapsed. It is the favored theory today (and of course fits with the ancients theory) that there exists not a universe, but a multiverse. Physicists have postulated that in reality, there may only be a single observer, simply one mind. You, are that mind, and no one else. This may seem impossible, and contrary to our everyday experience, but magick itself has done nothing more than say this at it's deeper levels. Take for example the circumpunct, the circle with a dot at it's center, the actual symbol for Sol. This ever eternal Sun, has always been a symbol for consciousness, and life. It is awareness, it is the great observer, who disappears at night, as if to sleep, a reflection of our own consciousness. It is the center of everything. This is so, if we realize that each of us are alone within our very own universe. Al others you observe, and who occupy your little private kingdom are but shadows, simply one out of an infinite set of possibilities for that person. You shall never truly know them, for they to are alone within a unique and personal universe. They are not the same as you in mind, of course, this is virtually impossible to discern. We can never truly be in another's mind.

The Agnaw system believes this, that the world around you is centered upon you, that the universe itself is a great and beautiful play in order to instruct you. Nothing is not of value, nothing is insignificant, and nothing is wasted. All that can be perceived is there for your growth and well being, and all who you encounter are Speakers of that Greater Mouth that is a part of you. You are as connected to the outer and the inner, and so these others who suffer and fall, never were, and are but the interplay of shadows of this greater mechanism. If you were to take a moment and contemplate this, many mysteries may be resolved. Think upon the many old adages that suddenly spring to new meaning when compared to this secret, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", "all for one and one for all", are a couple I think speak volumes. The world reflects you, and speaks to you through the higher language of visuals, smells, and events, and infinitely complex experiences. Life MOVES us, and reacts to us, and acts upon us through these plays of light and shadow. However, always, the very fact we experience every day we take for granted as "just the way it is" speaks to this secret if we simply SEE it. This secret is told to you every day of your life, and is told through the fact you alone are always at the very center of your experiences, alone within, and with no one else present behind your eyes but you.

"And I say unto those who suffer death and harm, I have walked among those Secret Halls, and have looked through the Eyes of Darkness, and saw nothing but light and life! The pains of the fallen are not, and are but the playthings of mine own heart."

So then, what does this teach? The same thing it teaches as if this illusion were not true. The illusion of life is perfect, and best if ignored in this context. Does this suffering move you to act? Does this pain compel you to act to assist? Does it generate compassion for the greater whole? Do these sad events allow one to learn to unite with love, and work together? Yes, or if no, then expect but more suffering within your circle, of which you are the point.

Here I stand,
Lord Ferocia

[Ramscha]

The Agnaw system believes

Thats what it is, a believe....

And yet here you stand and here you preach to us who shouldn't be more then mere illusions to you. So why wasting your time here suffering unnecessarily?
Sidharta at least went in the front line when he was preaching about life being soly suffering. Though I don't see it here in this case. What I see are smart chosen words from a seeming armchair philosopher. Where is the suffering you talked about, the one which simply is necessary, is needed for the student to grow? I don't see the preacher having the issues his "students" have.

The same philosophy teachers had only some decades ago by beating the students to a pulb, the same philosophy the inquisition had when torturing their sheeps to bring them back on the right path, the same philosophy in the communistic Gulags in Siberia. I could continue with the list if you like, but I guess you see the point.

"And I say unto those who suffer death and harm, I have walked among those Secret Halls, and have looked through the Eyes of Darkness, and saw nothing but light and life! The pains of the fallen are not, and are but the playthings of mine own heart."

Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it. - Henry David Thoreau

[Lord Ferocia]

The Agnaw system believes

Thats what it is, a believe....

And yet here you stand and here you preach to us who shouldn't be more then mere illusions to you. So why wasting your time here suffering unnecessarily?
Sidharta at least went in the front line when he was preaching about life being soly suffering. Though I don't see it here in this case. What I see are smart chosen words from a seeming armchair philosopher. Where is the suffering you talked about, the one which simply is necessary, is needed for the student to grow? I don't see the preacher having the issues his "students" have.

The same philosophy teachers had only some decades ago by beating the students to a pulb, the same philosophy the inquisition had when torturing their sheeps to bring them back on the right path, the same philosophy in the communistic Gulags in Siberia. I could continue with the list if you like, but I guess you see the point.

"And I say unto those who suffer death and harm, I have walked among those Secret Halls, and have looked through the Eyes of Darkness, and saw nothing but light and life! The pains of the fallen are not, and are but the playthings of mine own heart."

Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it. - Henry David Thoreau

Ramscha,

Why would I not try and explain to those around me? I feel you are somehow confused at what I have said. Or perhaps, you simply do not understand the whole picture. Nothing is a waste of time, especially dealing with others around one, even if technically we can call them illusions (and I never called them this, the situation of suffering is). People, other than oneself are "shadows", which is a symbol that explains that what see see are the reflections of true selves, we are not fully in contact with. There are countless universes, and so countless reflections of you, in all manner of conditions, and yet here you are. Who is it that tends to the other reflections of you? You are not fully there. We are fully connected, and a part of those around us, these reflections are also an aspect of us, and chosen out of a sea of possibility specifically for us. You, here, right now, as angry or confused with me, is exactly the reflection of your true Self, I required in my life. The same goes for you, I am here for a reason.

I have no idea why you are talking about using brutality etc., on students. No where have I suggested such a thing, and in fact I spoke of the contrary. It is vital to realize what we do to others is reflected back upon us, as the world is a great mirror. We can think of the outer world, as our own body. What we say to them, how we act, and what we seek to send out is important. The line above I quote is not some "rule", is is a bit of wisdom regarding the illusion of suffering. Think about it a moment, life is pushing us along, the world grows according to friction. It seeks to instruct us, and just as a child may scrap a knee in the process of learning to walk, society shall endure suffering along the path. Without any resistance or friction in life, it becomes stagnant and indifferent, and without anything to compel it onward.

I understand this theory is a bit hard to grasp, and I think perhaps you are confused by it. This is why earlier I said, that it is not usually given to those uninitiated. They are too fully stuck within the confines of the illusion to free themselves easily, and when confronted with it, they resist it, as it SEEMS to be speaking indifferently, and coldly about others and the condition of suffering. I'll say it again, this is not the case, and in fact, it means we should realize we being at the helm as it were of our universe, and at the center of it all, we are fully responsible for everything that occurs. Every evil is in accordance with our actions and requirements to grow, and reflect back at us some failing within. We should seek to move according to how these terrible events move us, and act to create the desired changes within, in order to learn.

I am sensing you have some personal history with these types of health issues, and suffering that touches you. You seem very upset, and even angry, and I am not sure why. However, what I have said here, I think you should meditate upon, or cast it aside. In the end, it is your choice. No one here is trying to force it upon you.

Here I stand,
Lord Ferocia

[insomni4c]

Ramscha,

Why would I not try and explain to those around me? I feel you are somehow confused at what I have said. Or perhaps, you simply do not understand the whole picture. Nothing is a waste of time, especially dealing with others around one, even if technically we can call them illusions (and I never called them this, the situation of suffering is). People, other than oneself are "shadows", which is a symbol that explains that what see see are the reflections of true selves, we are not fully in contact with. There are countless universes, and so countless reflections of you, in all manner of conditions, and yet here you are. Who is it that tends to the other reflections of you? You are not fully there. We are fully connected, and a part of those around us, these reflections are also an aspect of us, and chosen out of a sea of possibility specifically for us. You, here, right now, as angry or confused with me, is exactly the reflection of your true Self, I required in my life. The same goes for you, I am here for a reason.

I have no idea why you are talking about using brutality etc., on students. No where have I suggested such a thing, and in fact I spoke of the contrary. It is vital to realize what we do to others is reflected back upon us, as the world is a great mirror. We can think of the outer world, as our own body. What we say to them, how we act, and what we seek to send out is important. The line above I quote is not some "rule", is is a bit of wisdom regarding the illusion of suffering. Think about it a moment, life is pushing us along, the world grows according to friction. It seeks to instruct us, and just as a child may scrap a knee in the process of learning to walk, society shall endure suffering along the path. Without any resistance or friction in life, it becomes stagnant and indifferent, and without anything to compel it onward.

I understand this theory is a bit hard to grasp, and I think perhaps you are confused by it. This is why earlier I said, that it is not usually given to those uninitiated. They are too fully stuck within the confines of the illusion to free themselves easily, and when confronted with it, they resist it, as it SEEMS to be speaking indifferently, and coldly about others and the condition of suffering. I'll say it again, this is not the case, and in fact, it means we should realize we being at the helm as it were of our universe, and at the center of it all, we are fully responsible for everything that occurs. Every evil is in accordance with our actions and requirements to grow, and reflect back at us some failing within. We should seek to move according to how these terrible events move us, and act to create the desired changes within, in order to learn.

I am sensing you have some personal history with these types of health issues, and suffering that touches you. You seem very upset, and even angry, and I am not sure why. However, what I have said here, I think you should meditate upon, or cast it aside. In the end, it is your choice. No one here is trying to force it upon you.

Here I stand,
Lord Ferocia

I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with your belief as being hard to understand or him being confused. You're claiming that your personal, subjective belief is absolute truth. Since there's no way to prove these types of things, not everyone will agree with you. It's alright to debate differing philosophies, but to claim someone can't comprehend it just because they disagree is a little narcissistic in my opinion. There are people that believe suffering is necessary because it's a learning experience, there are others (like Ramscha) that do not and are angered by the sheer amount of suffering and injustice in the world. I'm not him so I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty sure the reason he seemed angry is that you're pushing a belief that implies that it's perfectly acceptable that there are people out there that suffer their entire lives through or starve to death as children. from his comments you can tell that he sees that as unjust, so it's easy to see why he wouldn't respond happily to your comments and thank you for sharing it lol.

[Lord Ferocia]

Insomni4c,

Thank you for your words. I thought we were all here, upon this forum to discuss and put forth our ideas and beliefs. How is it that he assumes (or yourself) that I am pushing it off on them? Of course one believes in their ideas. I have many years upon me that have proven it, and I feel anyone should speak with conviction, especially when the idea has value to the whole. In any case, I was responding to his request to "tell us", and asked for my opinion. I gave it in further detail, and they seem angry about it.

My original point to the OP, was that resistance is a part of life, and that it is often a mistake to assume it is the work of some "curse". Do you believe that if another has problems in their lives they should assume it is unnatural and not part of the process of living? Do you assume we all should have perfect lives, and that these ordeals have no value? I think regardless of my belief this is not the case. As it is painfully obvious that through friction we grow, and through the apparent injustice in the world, and suffering, much is brought to bear upon the hearts, and so Man is compelled to act. It serves a purpose, and that is to instruct society to unite and overcome these larger problems.

What worth is their in a Utopia, where there is no resistance at all? Where we languish in a field of roses, and everyone has what they wish at a whim? Paradise is a fallacy, and the weak stagnate within such place, as they will only find the indifference of satisfaction, leading nowhere. The spirit seeks to strive, and to overcome challenges, and to soar and grow. Without these dark shadows there could be no stories of courage or strength! What is there to be proud of and attain if everything is found perfect. Life is crooked, it is inherently flawed, and this acts as the impetus of growth. I feel many run to an excuse to escape ordeals and look to outward remedies, instead of seeing the opportunity that is present to learn and achieve. Magic isn't a safeguard and cure-all, it is a path that leads one to self discovery and attunement to the world around them.

Lord Ferocia

[Asurendra]

Hello all,

Much has been written on this thread and to thoroughly address all the issues raised would be an involved task so I am only going to focus on certain points.

First, Ferocia (I only address Devas with the title 'lord' as they merit it by the nature of their being) is certainly free to express his viewpoints in any manner he may choose, so far as I am concerned. Conversely, that means that others have an equal freedom to respond. It can be hard to catch emotional intentions when we are limited to just words here, but, I have to say that I have an impression that Ferocia treats this topic far too glibly and abstractly.

Second, his position strikes me as being rather Nietzschian and the echo of that philosophy may be part of what is annoying Ramsche. who is an Austrian. Further, this notion that 'pain is progress' and we must be tortured into spiritual development is a sadomasochistic hang-over from traditional Catholicism with notions of payment of debt as the way to freedom. The final components of his metaphysics is an overlay of subjective idealism and borrowed notions of illusion from India. Ferocia claims he has uncovered a new system and speaks in a rather oracular manner but I don't see anything really new.

Thirdly, in the Shiva Sutras and the Bhagavad-Gita this view of 'pain is progress' is absent. Progress is a discovery of one's self, Pratyabhijna, or self-recognition, and what is our Real Identity: we are that single point of Consciousness which is everything. Bondage is ignorance rising from the notion of duality and all the agonies of all the Hells one can conceive will never purify anyone from anything: only an internal act can accomplish that liberation. In Kashmir Shaivism the path to liberation is one that not other-worldly but is rich in creativity and fulfillment because that is the nature of God Himself.

I do not think that Ferocia is correctly applying this notion of 'illusions' and 'shadows,' but, in Indian philosophy there is a wide variety of opinion. Briefly, in Kashmir Shaivism Maya or illusion means 'limitation.' It does not mean that the world is not 'real' but, to use our modern terminology, it is akin to a hologram that is real in itself if not absolutely. The discussion of that and of Karma is another long one and I have to eat lunch before I go to work. But, I will say that the main point of Karma is not retribution, testing or balancing the scales: it is to overcome it and that is done by being in tune with one's Self.

There are two types of knowledge: Baudoha – Intellectual/Abstract & Paurusa – Existential. Even if one knows the Truth and can recite it backwards it is empty in itself. It is only useful as a meal that must be digested and made a part of one's self, in one's heart, which is existential knowledge. I know where I am and I admit it. Yes, I have baudoha but I am still working on gaining paurusa. Perhaps it is that realization that has made me less doctrinaire than I was when I was younger. THAT is my main point.

[Lord Ferocia]

Hello all,

Much has been written on this thread and to thoroughly address all the issues raised would be an involved task so I am only going to focus on certain points.

First, Ferocia (I only address Devas with the title 'lord' as they merit it by the nature of their being) is certainly free to express his viewpoints in any manner he may choose, so far as I am concerned. Conversely, that means that others have an equal freedom to respond. It can be hard to catch emotional intentions when we are limited to just words here, but, I have to say that I have an impression that Ferocia treats this topic far too glibly and abstractly.

Second, his position strikes me as being rather Nietzschian and the echo of that philosophy may be part of what is annoying Ramsche. who is an Austrian. Further, this notion that 'pain is progress' and we must be tortured into spiritual development is a sadomasochistic hang-over from traditional Catholicism with notions of payment of debt as the way to freedom. The final components of his metaphysics is an overlay of subjective idealism and borrowed notions of illusion from India. Ferocia claims he has uncovered a new system and speaks in a rather oracular manner but I don't see anything really new.

Thirdly, in the Shiva Sutras and the Bhagavad-Gita this view of 'pain is progress' is absent. Progress is a discovery of one's self, Pratyabhijna, or self-recognition, and what is our Real Identity: we are that single point of Consciousness which is everything. Bondage is ignorance rising from the notion of duality and all the agonies of all the Hells one can conceive will never purify anyone from anything: only an internal act can accomplish that liberation. In Kashmir Shaivism the path to liberation is one that not other-worldly but is rich in creativity and fulfillment because that is the nature of God Himself.

I do not think that Ferocia is correctly applying this notion of 'illusions' and 'shadows,' but, in Indian philosophy there is a wide variety of opinion. Briefly, in Kashmir Shaivism Maya or illusion means 'limitation.' It does not mean that the world is not 'real' but, to use our modern terminology, it is akin to a hologram that is real in itself if not absolutely. The discussion of that and of Karma is another long one and I have to eat lunch before I go to work. But, I will say that the main point of Karma is not retribution, testing or balancing the scales: it is to overcome it and that is done by being in tune with one's Self.

There are two types of knowledge: Baudoha – Intellectual/Abstract & Paurusa – Existential. Even if one knows the Truth and can recite it backwards it is empty in itself. It is only useful as a meal that much be digested and made a part of one's self, in one's heart, which is existential knowledge. I know where I am and I admit it. Yes, I have baudoha but I am still working on gaining paurusa. Perhaps it is that realization that has made me less doctrinaire than I was when I was younger. THAT is my main point.

Asurendra,

Thank you for your opinion. This "pain is progress" is your own belief. My point isn't that we must suffer only in order to progress, but that pain and suffering are a part of the process of life, and growth.
There are of course means and means, and suffering is but one tool. It is my belief, that the systems expressed here are a part of the process as well, and help one discover themselves, as you even affirm.
This is what I had said in my previous post. The terms I use are what I have been using, according to the system I follow and have been taught. It is not used according to anything else, so of course there
may be differences in meaning. I explained the meaning behind them, and I feel they are easy enough to comprehend.

When you mention I am "incorrectly applying" the terms of "illusion" and "shadow" you are comparing this to other systems expressions, and also then you say I have brought nothing new. This is new,
and I have been on this forum for a few days, and have not even began to express anything in particular about the Agnaw. It is a little premature to judge. I highly doubt you understand what it is
I am even saying. I think if you reread what I had written more carefully, you may see this.

What I am saying is, that each individual is the center of their own personal universe, literally alone within it. In this case then, all that transpires is an interpersonal connection with the greater whole.
This ALL is a reflection of these individuals, and that which one requires is provided, what they "evoke" by means of the Self is expressed in their environment and experiences. The main point is that
it would seem everyone here is saying that pain and suffering and injustice is another fault, and has no value, and we should burn a candle and wish it away. Or, that we are to assume suffering is
something that we can ultimately fix, and have perfect lives without conflict. If I am wrong, then explain to me what your belief is regarding suffering, and how you view it?

Also, the title "Lord" is a symbolic title given within the Agnaw to denote someone who has achieved success within it. There are plenty of titles around, and we use them every day, as well as many
here I am sure. Take for example "Priest" or "Priestess".

Lord Ferocia

[Nahemah]

@Ramscha,I had to resize one of the pics,as the thread had 'gone wide' because of it and I had trouble trying to see the posts.

I hope it hasn't lessened the visual impact by much.Sorry.

On topic: My own point of view echoes Ramscha's. [thumbup]

[insomni4c]

Lord Ferocia,

I respect your beliefs and your freewill to voice them here, I wasn't intending to criticize either of those, I apologize if I came across overly critical. I was just trying to clear up any confusion and to point out how those posts may have come across, it just sounded a little "preachy" to me, I don't know if that's what you intended but that was the impression I got. Definitely feel free to share your philosophy, I wouldn't mind hearing more about it myself.

As to how I feel about the trials and suffering we face in life, I generally believe things happen for a reason whether we understand that reason or not. I do believe though we should do what we can to help alleviate the suffering of others, or at the very least not add to it. There are definitely lessons to be learned when faced with obstacles and suffering, but there are some instances that it's hard to see anything worth learning from it; I mean there are people that are born into complete poverty with no way out that are doomed from the start, I'm not sure what someone would gain from that unless it's a lesson for the next life (assuming reincarnation is true). You're philosophy does answer that question, even though it's not something I personally believe; if it works for you and helps you find peace in this world then roll with it. I don't really believe that the true nature of the universe is simple enough to sum up in one belief system and is subject to personal interpretation, we all interpret it in ways that we can understand, it's far too abstract for the human mind to understand directly so we break it down into concepts that are within our grasp.

I don't really think there's anything wrong with trying to use magic to reduce your/anothers suffering, if it's something you need to learn from it's not going to go away until the lesson is learned whether someone uses magic or not. I don't really think there is a lesson to be learned from illness though, that is something out of your control (for the most part anyways). If it's caused by a microorganism it's simply ensuring the continued existence of said organism, the need hosts but our body does not like intruders and as your body fights it off you'll experience sickness. Chronic illnesses likely don't have much of an inherent lesson either. Although emotional/mental suffering (unless caused by a physical illness) will push one to adapt and change something about themselves or their environment if they wish to fix it, there is likely some sort of conflict within your psyche or something worth learning in it. I've found that the times I've learned the most about myself and have grown the most as a person have been during episodes of depression, I generally carry on making the same mistakes that brought me there for awhile but eventually step back and re-evaluate myself, my worldview, and my actions, once I've worked out what needs work my mental state usually begins to improve. There are lessons that can only be taught through pain, re-evaluating your core values and sense of self can be a painful process because of how attached the ego is to these things. Magic may help smooth this process out because of it's effects on the mind. It can also give one a sense of hope, if you believe your magic can help, then obstacles won't seem quite so impossible to climb.



Now to get back to the topic of the thread haha, we've gotten rather sidetracked haven't we?

As for the OP's original questions, whether there's a curse involved or not working to negate a perceived curse could go a long way in finding that hope that's necessary to overcome this. If you believe you can solve it with magic, then by all means do it. Magic will not completely replace mundane means of improving your situation, but it could give you that confidence to keep trying. But really it's better not to see it as a curse, that perspective is only going to make you overlook the good and focus on the bad, you're mind will look for ways to validate your belief, and once you get stuck in that mindset you're only going to feel more powerless. If it takes doing some rituals with the intent of removing a curse to change your perspective then go for it, it can't hurt. You could also try regular banishing and healing work, that definitely couldn't hurt either. But don't ignore the mundane side of it, if you're not physically trying to improve things as well how is your will going to manifest? That's my perspective anyways, hopefully I put what Iwanted to say into words alright, my mind is a jumbled mess lately haha.

[Nahemah]

That's my perspective anyways, hopefully I put what I wanted to say into words alright, my mind is a jumbled mess lately haha.

Well,if this is you being messy,I'd love to see your writing when you are tidy and organised,lol.I think your posts in this thread are excellent and I would have said so before,but I was in a rush.

...Further, this notion that 'pain is progress' and we must be tortured into spiritual development is a sadomasochistic hang-over from traditional Catholicism with notions of payment of debt as the way to freedom. The final components of his metaphysics is an overlay of subjective idealism and borrowed notions of illusion from India. Ferocia claims he has uncovered a new system and speaks in a rather oracular manner but I don't see anything really new.

This too,especially.

Socio-Economic power plays and long standing corruptive abuses of such power,through Imperialism,religious righteousness and forced conquests of the past are what fuels and drives so much of the suffering in this World and those are by the actions of men,not Gods.

I rather like existentialism,in it's purely philosophical form,I could debate it all day,but I still care very much about righting the inequalities that are prevalent in greater society and I don't think providing social justice for all will necessarily lead to a dreary or boring Utopia by any means...

And why is that outcome seen by some quarters to be so seemingly inevitable and irrefutably correct?

I'd venture it's due to a failure to be able to see beyond the walls of the sheep pen.

QFT.Below advice is sound too. [geek2]

As for the OP's original questions, whether there's a curse involved or not working to negate a perceived curse could go a long way in finding that hope that's necessary to overcome this. If you believe you can solve it with magic, then by all means do it. Magic will not completely replace mundane means of improving your situation, but it could give you that confidence to keep trying. But really it's better not to see it as a curse, that perspective is only going to make you overlook the good and focus on the bad, you're mind will look for ways to validate your belief, and once you get stuck in that mindset you're only going to feel more powerless. If it takes doing some rituals with the intent of removing a curse to change your perspective then go for it, it can't hurt. You could also try regular banishing and healing work, that definitely couldn't hurt either. But don't ignore the mundane side of it, if you're not physically trying to improve things as well how is your will going to manifest?

[insomni4c]

That's my perspective anyways, hopefully I put what I wanted to say into words alright, my mind is a jumbled mess lately haha.

Well,if this is you being messy,I'd love to see your writing when you are tidy and organised,lol.I think your posts in this thread are excellent and I would have said so before,but I was in a rush.

Haha thanks I guess I just critique my writing skills a little harsher than I need to lol.

[Ramscha]

Wow, I didn't think that such an interesting discussion could occur out of my angry post [oh]
Okay, one step after another

@ Asurendra and little Lord:
Well, the reason why my post got a rather angry tone was partly mentioned from me in my last post. It is about this "Universe knows best"-arguing. It is not about that I suffered similar situations nor that I am austrian or that there is a personal moral behind this, it is the contrary. It is this universal-teaching-morality of this propagated Agnaw-mystic which makes me puke as it is seemingly taken as a shelter to hide behind.

@ Ferocia:
I am afraid there is not much left to say for me regarding the points about your system and the comprehention thing. I don't know if you take me for a retard but you clearly gave me exact the input which I respondet to. But now I have the feeling like the words are turned in my mouth. Anyway, more flamming from my side won't do this any good and I therefore apologize to Nahemah for my little fury.
I read the whole posts several times, but as Asurendra said there really is nothing special or new you mentioned so far. Quite the opposite, there is something which made me wonder:

In order to explain the foundation for this truth, I must speak of a bit of science. Admittedly, it is science not yet proven, but still relevant and the tidbits that are becoming more clear to today's physicists place a hand on the shoulder of those who have spoken this truth before (I suggest you read the Tao of Physics, as an example).

That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence - Christopher Hitchens

A principle which made the scientific progress working quite well until today (except the profit dictation, but that is another thing...).

@ Nahemah:
Thanks for minimizing the pic, I wasn't sure how to do it. You are of course right, it was rather irritating to have such a big picture in the thread.

This too,especially.

Socio-Economic power plays and long standing corruptive abuses of such power,through Imperialism,religious righteousness and forced conquests of the past are what fuels and drives so much of the suffering in this World and those are by the actions of men,not Gods.

I rather like existentialism,in it's purely philosophical form,I could debate it all day,but I still care very much about righting the inequalities that are prevalent in greater society and I don't think providing social justice for all will necessarily lead to a dreary or boring Utopia by any means...

And why is that outcome seen by some quarters to be so seemingly inevitable and irrefutably correct?

Well spoken!

@ insomni4c:
You put up a solid argumentation, no need for to hard self criticism [thumbup]
I am able to learn a thing or two from your way [lol]

Ramscha

[RoseRed]

Thanx for fixing the pics. I finally read through the thread and all I can say is "Wow!"

is is a bit of wisdom regarding the illusion of suffering.

The illusion of suffering? Illusion? Seriously?

That makes about as much sense as elements aren't real. They're made of atoms and therefore, not solid. Until you get smashed in the face with a rock and find out just how solid it really is.

Each person is the center of the Universe? Really? Do you really actually believe the things you're saying in this thread? That's an awful lot of universes.

Oh, but I almost forgot... I'm among the un-initiated so I'm not able to grasp such advanced concepts.

I played with and considered these concepts when I was a teenager. I was unable to swallow this self centered load of crap when I was a kid. But it's ok cuz I'm uninitiated and therefore unable to understand such advanced thoughts. Thanx so much for the pat on the head. Maybe someday I'll be advanced enough to 'get it'. [yay] whoohoo - something to look forward to.

[Lord Ferocia]

To all,

It seems this has rather gotten away from me. I would like to respond in detail to all the points raised, and in some instances anger. It was not my intent to come here and argue. The system itself I came to share was not focused upon this one theory of mine we are debating. The system of the Agnaw is based upon specific letters (symbols) and their use.

However, I would like to address a bit here, and try, if I can to make clear my belief, and point. I think, that many are confusing what I said (even though they say they have read and reread). I am not stating that we should not care, or become indifferent to suffering. Nor am I suggesting that suffering is a requirement for progress alone, or that one should use suffering or pain or punishment in order to instruct. I am also, not saying that illness itself, nor any sort of suffering in and of itself in a specific situation "teaches something" in particular.

Science today has actually found great evidence to support (and as a matter of fact it is assumed to be correct) that there are multiple universes. One need only look up this fact to see it is grounded in hard science. This new discovery now supports what the wise have said for ages, and helps illustrate how the old theories work. Here is a bit from Wikipedia:

The many-worlds interpretation is an interpretation of quantum mechanics that asserts the objective reality of the universal wavefunction and denies the actuality of wavefunction collapse. Many-worlds implies that all possible alternative histories and futures are real, each representing an actual "world" (or "universe"). In lay terms, the hypothesis states there is a very large—perhaps infinite[2]—number of universes, and everything that could possibly have happened in our past, but did not, has occurred in the past of some other universe or universes. The theory is also referred to as MWI, the relative state formulation, the Everett interpretation, the theory of the universal wavefunction, many-universes interpretation, or just many-worlds.
The original relative state formulation is due to Hugh Everett in 1957.[3][4] Later, this formulation was popularized and renamed many-worlds by Bryce Seligman DeWitt in the 1960s and 1970s.[1][5][6][7] The decoherence approaches to interpreting quantum theory have been further explored and developed,[8][9][10] becoming quite popular. MWI is one of many multiverse hypotheses in physics and philosophy. It is currently considered a mainstream interpretation along with the other decoherence interpretations, the Copenhagen interpretation,[11] and deterministic interpretations such as the Bohmian mechanics.
Before many-worlds, reality had always been viewed as a single unfolding history. Many-worlds, however, views reality as a many-branched tree, wherein every possible quantum outcome is realised.[12] Many-worlds claims to reconcile the observation of non-deterministic events, such as the random radioactive decay, with the fully deterministic equations of quantum physics.
In many-worlds, the subjective appearance of wavefunction collapse is explained by the mechanism of quantum decoherence, and this is supposed to resolve all of the correlation paradoxes of quantum theory, such as the EPR paradox[13][14] and Schrödinger's cat,[1] since every possible outcome of every event defines or exists in its own "history" or "world".

Many universes possible? Yes, and it does boggle the mind to think there could be so many, if we ALL had a personal universe. However, it is not my idea, and in truth we do not know if all those "other" universes are truly "out there", perhaps this is simply the point, you are alone and the only consciousness at all. This is beside the point however. The main thrust is that we each occupy the center of our universe (as nature inherently has us perceive). It may sound like a megalomaniac's dream, until one realizes it put's on in the drivers seat. It is a throne we all sit upon, and where one assumes complete responsibility for what transpires. Of course, this is not literal in the sense that you have actually caused these events, or conditions, I speak in terms of the spiritual seed of one's life experience. The whole is what is formulated out of the higher needs of the individual. The teachings of things may not directly be some "lesson" as in a particular structured format, but instead it is an abstract forging.

Take a dream for example. One would not assume that a particular strange event within the dream itself had a concrete "meaning" or lesson. Instead it is natural to look at the dream in total, and what the overall impression was, and what the dream meant altogether, and in some instances how a particular thing made them feel. What did it compel you to look at within? What does the dream evoke within you? It is not always specific and framed within a mundane idea, such as "I learned today that I must be more responsible". Likewise an illness may not teach us some sentence worthy lesson, but rather add to the whole experience of a life that in a much more subtle manner changes us at a higher spiritual level. The collective of suffering, mixed up with all other types of experiences creates a collage of instruction, that may not be expressed with words, it is beyond the rational. Yet, within all these is an impetus, a motion, and a Will to change. Transformation grips the soul and flings it wildly into that unknown mystery beyond human conception.

To sit and ponder what this illness, or injustice, or loss may mean in some literal and concrete manner in relation to a specific event is silly. One should also not make the mistake of believing they should act as if it is something "good" or something to be indifferent about. What I am saying is, that we should not run away from these problems, but face them head on, and use magic, yet not use it as a crutch, or a cure all, or some defense against some curse. We should use magic to assist in providing a true window into the situation and what "aspect" is behind it. All conditions have a seed that is from within, an outward expression of what is within. Magic should help us discover our own flow, and our own purpose, and align us with this in a conscious way. Once one is in alignment with the flow, the universe seems to work with them, and suffering and pain is reduced.

As I said before, resistance has a purpose, just as pain is a vital function of our body. It points us to things we need to address, and it allows us to pay attention to those things we need to strengthen. However, once again, I am NOT implying this is to be accomplished through the use of pain and suffering as tools, and in punishment of others etc. Of course we must seek to assist others! We must also let go of the idea this suffering is not a part of the learning process we must endure, for in it holds strength.

LF

[Lord Ferocia]

Ramscha,

I wanted to address this as well here, as again I think you simply did not understand me. You say:

I read the whole posts several times, but as Asurendra said there really is nothing special or new you mentioned so far. Quite the opposite, there is something which made me wonder:

"In order to explain the foundation for this truth, I must speak of a bit of science. Admittedly, it is science not yet proven, but still relevant and the tidbits that are becoming more clear to today's physicists place a hand on the shoulder of those who have spoken this truth before (I suggest you read the Tao of Physics, as an example)."


That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence - Christopher Hitchens

First of all, this theory I am expressing is not the unique aspect of the Agnaw, it is a system of 27 symbols, no where else found, that are a part of a magical system. The system itself is what I am here to share, not these viewpoints of which it also expresses. One does not have to believe in the theories I have shared here, in order to use and work the Agnaw. While there may be a similar theory out there about reality etc., there is not one that uses the 27 sacred letters known as the Agnaw, nor uses the Secret Names. Just so we are clear on this.

Last, your quote about asserting evidence applies to you and your beliefs as well! What is your evidence for your beliefs? Of course no one has absolute knowledge about the nature of reality and life. However, I will state that I most likely have more "evidence" for my claims than yourself. Take for example the theory of the multiverse, and as well there has been work that demonstrates there being "one consciousness" or "one mind". I think I stand on firm ground with what I say, and I still believe (based upon what you have said in these posts) that you do not understand what I have said. Perhaps you are not fully grasping what it is I am saying. There is much in scientific literature, relating to physics to back up this theory.

LF

[Asurendra]

I cannot speak to the subject of how you developed your worldview since I do not know. It may be that you have reached these conclusions on your own in a vacuum. However, they are not sui generis creations in themselves.

When you write, “What I am saying is, that each individual is the center of their own personal universe, literally alone within it.... This ALL is a reflection of these individuals” This is Subjective Idealism. In Western philosophy, the way you are using the term 'individual' would be called a monad. So, this is all basically Leibnitz. (Multiple Universe Theory, as taught, does not support your view, by the way.) You run into the same problem that Rose Red alluded to, that of how a consensus reality exist at all which we all experience. It is not so simple that we create our own reality as such since we must interact with other monads as well as broader forces. I cannot effect the drought that is currently afflicting California where I live by any act of will of belief on my own. To reduce this to its modern incarnation, my use of the Law of Attraction will often conflict with other monads using the same force. I can change how I relate to events, but, as a monad I am clearly not sovereign.

From my viewpoint, you are going in exactly the wrong direction. There is only one Consciousness of which all things are the playful manifestations. When I say each person is the center of the universe, what I mean is that our real identity is that we are all Paramashiva in an ultimate sense.

Much has been written about the subject of evil (pain & suffering) by humanity. Your opinion is certainly one often expressed. If this view is where you are in your relationship to the Supreme Lord then I think it's fine. I'm not personally emotionally attached to any view. Ultimately, this is a subject in which people must make an existential choice as it is not reducible to some verifiable calculus (to go back to Leibnitz). I'm sure you think this Agnaw is exactly that, but, that remains to be seen.

On that subject, if you think that your views on the nature of illusion are unique then I challenge you to outline them on a separate thread. Given that Subjective Idealism seems to be your core construct I have my doubts. But, as you say, I do not know the full system.

Because people disagree with you does not mean they do not understand you. This, and to claim that there is really a hidden component that somehow makes it all clear but others are not ready are really only rhetorical devices to shield weak positions.

[Mavus]

Nice thread!

Personally, I find the pictures and graphic bad news offensive, always. However, for a counter reason of Lord Ferocia argument.

We are all 'center AM sovereign' whether one cares to recognize it or not, yet that meaning differs to each our own divine uniqueness.

But we share 'soul' in so many layers that make an universe spin no matter any counting of universes or souls. So when a graphic picture, idea, smell, sound, etc. is shared for whatever reason, I suffer coming across it; so be it. Unless I chose not 'to feel'. Not feeling is unacceptable to me, but am careful to pro-action every moment.

My understanding, we all got to this planet each in own way honestly and being here you may do as you please for indeed you own being here now.

So lift the 'curse' on your mother and quit screwing around with it for seven years. And you do know how to do it. Cut the crap and do the thing.

I am willing for 'angels' to do their thing and still live gratitude, however I do not ask them for any help. Why? I remain mindful that open doors can remain open.

Best regards,

[Ramscha]

Last, your quote about asserting evidence applies to you and your beliefs as well! What is your evidence for your beliefs? Of course no one has absolute knowledge about the nature of reality and life. However, I will state that I most likely have more "evidence" for my claims than yourself. Take for example the theory of the multiverse, and as well there has been work that demonstrates there being "one consciousness" or "one mind". I think I stand on firm ground with what I say, and I still believe (based upon what you have said in these posts) that you do not understand what I have said. Perhaps you are not fully grasping what it is I am saying. There is much in scientific literature, relating to physics to back up this theory.

LF

I figured that this argument may rise, but I already wrote about it:
http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... =9&t=36009

Shouldn't be too difficult to grasp.

[RoseRed]

Strong evidence does not a fact make and wikipedia is not the end all and be all of information.

[Ramscha]

Strong evidence does not a fact make and wikipedia is not the end all and be all of information.

So what is a fact?

But I agree what you say about wikipedia. It is a useful tool (only because it is big does not mean that it is bad) but does not substitute any further research.

Ramscha