Is Lucifer a deity?

[JohnTitor]

Please note that this thread follows on from A skeptic's last resort

This thread began as a result of the following statement by MAZOHIR:

1st off, LUCIFER is not a Diety.

If you have gotton over your initial fear, I would suggest talking directly to the entity, and see if it can tell you exactly what it wants, how you might help it leave, or at least be more calm, and maybe evn help you with invisible things (like stolen articles, hidden treasures, etc...)

If you can't get over your fear, then I suggest contacting a Magician of some repute. Look online for the HOGD or OTO, and see if any Temples are close to you. If so, then contact them and see if one of the members will come over and do a banishing Ritual. Should do the trick.

Your beliefs do not affect simple logistics- even though I agree with you. May this issue be resolved soon so as to spare them more tension. A deity is simply something that one reveres in godlike stature. NYX, ZEUS, JHVH, etc... all deities. If you want them as your "GOD" they are a deity. And with the following that lucifer has, I can very easily see him as a deity, though I don't consider him one myself simply because the idea stems from him being UNDER a ruling Deity. However if you do not believe in the christian doctrine and call your god Lucifer, then yes he IS indeed a DEITY. -.-

[Clockwork Ghost]

Linguistically, a deity is is a supernatural being who may be thought of as holy, godly, or sacred. Some religions have one supreme deity, while others have multiple deities of various ranks. Using this definition, Lucifer could be seen as having been a deity before The Fall. The fact remains however that it's even questionable as to whether such a being even existed, or if Lucifer isn't simply synonymous with the King of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar II, who conquered Jerusalem some time in the sixth century BCE.

[JohnTitor]

remarkable is it not- that I have been made an example of simply attempting to redirect the conversation back to helping the OP? Congratulations my friend in using admin authority to take such things out of context. I am less than pleased- though not angry. I suppose it was an issue that you deemed important enough to take to a new post? I certainly had no desire to continue the discussion regarding deities as it is subjective to outlook and perspective.....

Linguistically, a deity is is a supernatural being who may be thought of as holy, godly, or sacred. Some religions have one supreme deity, while others have multiple deities of various ranks. Using this definition, Lucifer could be seen as having been a deity before The Fall. The fact remains however that it's even questionable as to whether such a being even existed, or if Lucifer isn't simply synonymous with the King of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar II, who conquered Jerusalem some time in the sixth century BCE.

That is even if you believe he ever fell, or there was ever JHVH. Again, subjective to belief. Semantics...... Therein lies the pragmatic nature of the occult and magick. Please, consult me or just erase the post before EVER doing something like this again Clockwork.... This is against what you previously stated about having the consent of a user before posting things. I know that was regarding a PM and posting it publicly, but I would rather have my post erased or PM'd prior to having it taken out of context and posed as a question rather than as a response to another statement. Nobody save those interested in the topic this was cut from would understand WHY i said such a thing.....

Sincerely,
Titor

[Clockwork Ghost]

remarkable is it not- that I have been made an example of simply attempting to redirect the conversation back to helping the OP? Congratulations my friend in using admin authority to take such things out of context. I am less than pleased- though not angry. I suppose it was an issue that you deemed important enough to take to a new post? I certainly had no desire to continue the discussion regarding deities as it is subjective to outlook and perspective.....

You were not 'made an example of'. This thread was split from the 'A skeptic's last resort' thread due to the original thread being about Nesrail's strange spiritual experiences and your answer being more about whether Lucifer was a deity. A note was placed at the beginning of this thread stating where the thread had began from, along with reference to your original post in full. I apologise for the confusion, and I will make mention in the 'A skeptic's last resort' thread that your post has been used to create a new thread where people can discuss the nature of Lucifer as a deity more in full. MAZOHIR's post, to which yours references, was left in the original thread due to it still being in relation to the original question. This split in threads complies with Forum Rule 4, namely:

4: We do not alter a members posts without advising in the post that we have done so. This is only done if the post contains extremely unacceptable material, such as excessive profanity, hate spech, racism, sexism, homophobia or other anti-social behaviour. When this isnt the case, but the post still breaks forum rules, we will comment in the thread that this has occurred. Threads will be closed if they have turned into flame wars. If a thread drifts too far off topic, it will be split so that a new thread with the new topic can be created.

Your post was drifting into a discussion as to whether Lucifer was a deity. This isn't what the original thread was about. A note was made on the new thread as to where the post came from. Like I said, I will add a message on MAZOHIR's post with a link to the new post, so that if anyone wishes to follow the discussion they may do so in the new thread.

Linguistically, a deity is is a supernatural being who may be thought of as holy, godly, or sacred. Some religions have one supreme deity, while others have multiple deities of various ranks. Using this definition, Lucifer could be seen as having been a deity before The Fall. The fact remains however that it's even questionable as to whether such a being even existed, or if Lucifer isn't simply synonymous with the King of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar II, who conquered Jerusalem some time in the sixth century BCE.

That is even if you believe he ever fell, or there was ever JHVH. Again, subjective to belief. Semantics...... Therein lies the pragmatic nature of the occult and magick. Please, consult me or just erase the post before EVER doing something like this again Clockwork.... This is against what you previously stated about having the consent of a user before posting things. I know that was regarding a PM and posting it publicly, but I would rather have my post erased or PM'd prior to having it taken out of context and posed as a question rather than as a response to another statement. Nobody save those interested in the topic this was cut from would understand WHY i said such a thing.....

Sincerely,
Titor

I don't need to consult you before following Forum Rules if it is clear that a thread needs to be split into two parts. Leaving your post on the previous thread would have changed the topic of the original thread. Starting a new thread allows people to both offer advice to Nesrail while discussing the Deification of Lucifer. I am sorry this has caused you such grief, but the split was done to preserve the integrity of the first thread whilst beginning a new topic - all in line with Forum Rule 4. Lets break the rule down:

1. 'We do not alter a members posts without advising in the post that we have done so': This thread begins with a reference and link to the thread it is split from. Like I said, I will also put a link in the other thread that links it to this one.

2. If a thread drifts too far off topic, it will be split so that a new thread with the new topic can be created': The original post was about strange spiritual goings on, not whether Lucifer was a deity.

[JohnTitor]

Mazohir blatantly contested another posters belief before returning to the post. I will leave this for PM's as this does "NOT PERTAIN TO THE TOPIC." I had no desire of continuing something so trivial and absolutely asinine as debating semantics.

A deity is what you want it to be. You can have a deity with no name- similarly to agnostics. "i believe in a higher power, though I won't say what it is because I don't know." This becomes a debate rather than anything informative. All it does is bring forth one persons belief put against another persons belief- and as you so bluntly stated before- you cannot expect anyone to change their beliefs... making the discussion NULL and VOID- a MOOT point. . -.-

I seem to have no ability to remove this topic, and would very much like to have it dropped from the forum.

[the_spiral]

I made the original post to which MAZOHIR replied. He is entitled to his beliefs (as are all on this board), but I used the word "deity" in a general and contextual sense since the OP had self-identified as a skeptic yet was representing himself with the sigil, and I was just curious to know if he was Luciferian in belief or practice.

Regardless, there are a number of people who do believe in Lucifer and worship him as a deity, and to me it seems a bit intolerant to draw hard lines on how we describe such entities when the majority don't even believe they exist in the first place. But I'm not here for semantic arguments, so this will be my last word on it [wink]

[Hadit]

Lucifer is only a deity if tied to the deity Ishtar via the planet Venus. Otherwise the term is simply a title, similar to the title of Satan.

[Sypheara]

To put this topic firmly back on track, as it is something of importance to myself.

Yes, Lucifer is a deity. In my own Tradition, Lucifer is one of the ruling powers, next to both his mother Hecate, and his brother Belial. I can't speak for others - i can only speak of what i myself know and have experienced.

All mythological origins of the name when considered in this context are rescinded - instead direct working with him and the other Spirits that know of him reveals his true multiple and many natures, with both him and his Brother Belial being excellent shape changers.

He is an entity which has appeared across multiple cultures, in multiple names, and is most assuredly one of the better allies anyone who practices any form of magick can have. Anyone who is unsure of this can simply test it for themselves. He is usually a very vocal God... using multiple ways to delivers messages of his existence and presence.

He is easy to contact at least for myself - all you need is the Sigil of the Temple of Pyramids, his usual sigil (at end of post) written in a consecrated ink on virgin paper or parchment. Simply brew some coffee, enhance the paper with it, let it dry, write on the sigil, let it dry, pass over sandalwood incense, spit alcohol from the mouth of the sigil (lightly), and then blood the sigil from a cut in the left hand or finger. Meditate on this sigil and he will assuredly come in some form and communicate with you. His power is unbelievably intense, and ranges from intensely cold to blazingly hot depending on the form he wishes to take. He prefers appearing with a red or even gold aura, but sometimes he appears as a blue / light green aura, mirroring his counterparts.

It gets me quite mad people simply describing him as an 'icon of rebellion' or other such nebulous terms, frankly bullshit terms to lend agency to their teen angst cults without ever having tried to contact him and work with him firsthand to see his real nature, and then go on to also deny him any recognition of his external agency.

I would also point out a deity is not what you want it to be - a deity is either real and existent in some form as a powerful identified spirit to venerate (whether you believe that is simply an archetype or a solid external being capable of external materialization) or it isnt a deity. Too many people believe you can force whatever concept into whatever form you like to make it work, without realising that has profound issues lying behind it.

Its this mindset and approach that causes alot of problems for occultists these days. Syncreticism without fucking things up is exceptionally hard to do in a manner which works off the bat and its best done in a natural and carefully considered fashion.

Spoiler:

Sorry if this has come across a little ranty. I believe its important to put two or three several counter points out there.

[Desecrated]

The whole point about magic is the idea that things can change.
People have believed in Lucifer as the fallen angel for over 1000 years. It doesn't matter what the original sources say anymore, with so many people imagining him as something else, he becomes something else.
And now when people have started worshiping him as a deity, he has become a deity.

Now, if you on the other hand is an orthodox like me, he is not an entity.

If you believe that there is no real entities and they are only aspects of our subconsciousness, then that is what they are.

Objective truths is mostly useless in magic. Create what ever universe you want to live in.

[Hadit]

The whole point about magic is the idea that things can change.
People have believed in Lucifer as the fallen angel for over 1000 years. It doesn't matter what the original sources say anymore, with so many people imagining him as something else, he becomes something else.
And now when people have started worshiping him as a deity, he has become a deity.

Now, if you on the other hand is an orthodox like me, he is not an entity.

If you believe that there is no real entities and they are only aspects of our subconsciousness, then that is what they are.

Objective truths is mostly useless in magic. Create what ever universe you want to live in.

Objective truths are certainly not useless to Luciferians though. The practice is based on objective reality for optimal effectiveness as well as universal useage.

[Sypheara]

The whole point about magic is the idea that things can change.
People have believed in Lucifer as the fallen angel for over 1000 years. It doesn't matter what the original sources say anymore, with so many people imagining him as something else, he becomes something else.
And now when people have started worshiping him as a deity, he has become a deity.

Now, if you on the other hand is an orthodox like me, he is not an entity.

If you believe that there is no real entities and they are only aspects of our subconsciousness, then that is what they are.

Objective truths is mostly useless in magic. Create what ever universe you want to live in.

Personally i think that only goes so far. I am definitely a traditionalist when i state that, I believe there are fundamental magickal truths, essences and existences which would exist regardless if humans were around to witness and partake of them. Its like the laws that govern our universe from a physics standpoint.. if we didnt exist, electricity wouldnt simply cease to exist because we are not there to use the power contained in the flow of electrons.

I also argue that 'Creating what ever universe you want to live in' mentally unfortunately does not change hard reality, as much as people wish it would, without a means to affect that change. Creating change not only requires will, but a method to actually execute that will. Anything else is just pure escapism, and is a trap that a lot of people have seemingly fallen into these days.

PS: Just want to say I was not involved with the other thread, nor was i the originator of any reports. Had enough drama today off forums, and would like it not to follow me to here.

[Desecrated]

Personally i think that only goes so far. I am definitely a traditionalist when i state that, I believe there are fundamental magickal truths, essences and existences which would exist regardless if humans were around to witness and partake of them. Its like the laws that govern our universe from a physics standpoint.. if we didnt exist, electricity wouldnt simply cease to exist because we are not there to use the power contained in the flow of electrons.

I also argue that 'Creating what ever universe you want to live in' mentally unfortunately does not change hard reality, as much as people wish it would, without a means to affect that change. Creating change not only requires will, but a method to actually execute that will. Anything else is just pure escapism, and is a trap that a lot of people have seemingly fallen into these days.

That is a sane opinion.

And it's definitely interesting to think about what the universe would look like if we weren't in it.