Zmeu

[Shinichi]

I was wondering if anyone here had any information on or experiences with the Zmeu entity from Romanian lore.

I've been working with an untrained medium of sorts who's gone and gotten herself somewhat possessed (which is largely my fault, but that's a rather embarrassing story for another time) by an entity that's identified himself as Zmeu. I have a few things in motion to sort out the situation, and I've introduced her to William Mistele who's helping me with the issue, but a real possession isn't a fun matter and if anyone has a suggestion or two I am very open to ideas right now.



~:Shin:~

[Ušušur]

Zmeu, as it even says on your wiki link, comes from a Slavic word 'zmaj', meaning 'dragon'.

However, there's a difference between dragon myth and aždaja which is basically a pure evil dragon-like thing. Description of Zmeu to me sounds exactly like aždaja.
In folklore, it is said when a snake gets over 100 years old, it turns into aždaja. Sometimes it flies into the air and has multiple heads and there's some sort of shield on its head.

St. George killing the dragon story - well, in Slavic version actually he's killing aždaja, not the dragon. I mean, dragon IS aždaja, sort of... but there's a significant difference between the two. Dragons can sometimes be helpful to humans. Aždaja is, without exception, evil, malevolent, violent being.

The orthodox christians believe only st. George can kill it.

There's a legend about an aždaja living in a lake. King was supposed to bring it barren sheep and young, most beautiful girl in the village. Aždaja was, naturally, devouring them all and was always asking for more. The city was eventually left without any girls and in the end, the King was supposed to bring his own daughter as a sacrifice. That's when St. George came in and slaughtered the beast with a spear.

This on the other hand, is sort of metaphorical re-telling of a biblical Sodoma and Gomora story (when Lot is saving his daughters from the wrath of two angels/God).

Even though in wiki article it states Zmeu is a different entity than other dragons in mythology ''... It is almost always defeated by a daring prince or knight-errant.'' - sounds familiar?

In another story, aždaja attacked small village and people gathered upon the hill. They kindly asked her to stop her madness and she turned into stone, just like that.

There's a figure of speech in these areas as well; when a woman is evil, malicious or has bad intents, it's usually called 'aždaja'. This word, when used to describe humans, is considered as a strong insult, an ultimate evil sort to speak.

And, in the end, this all leads back to indo-european roots... Aždaja could be (or is, in fact) Azhi Dahaka; ancient iranian evil dragon being but that's way off my territory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahhak

Not sure if any of this can help you. Good luck and keep us updated on the matter.

[Shinichi]

That's actually very helpful information, Ušušur. Thank you.



~:Shin:~

[Shinichi]

Someone in another group pointed out that the Zmeey (snake-like beings) of Slavic lore are very different from the Zmeu (incubi-like beings) of Romanian lore.

Based on the way the Zmeu I am dealing with has been behaving, the Incubi connection is perhaps very notable. He certainly feeds, though he does so in several different ways and not just sexually. His draconian nature and probable aždaja connection may still be relevant, but I'm thinking Zmeu is something a little unique. Or maybe he's just an individual fellow with his own set of circumstances and ideals. I've worked with typical succubi before, and Zmeu seems to be a lot more malevolent and a lot more complex than they are.

With that line of reasoning, does anyone have anything to say about banishing incubi or succubi, or are there any stories of possession with those entities? Surely, as often as people ask how to summon a succubi, there are at least a few good horror stories that might be relevant.



~:Shin:~

[Candy Ray]

About giving you advice, Shin......you can see energy and I can't, so in my book that means you know more about most phenomena than me ! But as I'm always telling people I used to be a succubus in a previous life, and I would say for banishing them: from instinct amber, and from what I have read in books a black knife. I believe it was that black knife which later evolved into the athame. Have a look at some amber and a black knife with that energy vision of yours and see if you agree with me.

[corvidus]

Hi Shinichi,

With that line of reasoning, does anyone have anything to say about banishing incubi or succubi, or are there any stories of possession with those entities? Surely, as often as people ask how to summon a succubi, there are at least a few good horror stories that might be relevant.

~:Shin:~

In the lineage of Solomon there are many different Pentacles for the submission and constraint of spirits, and apparently the reason he was held in such high regard as a King. If you're familiar with them, they might be of use:

Pentacles of King Solomon

[Shinichi]

About giving you advice, Shin......you can see energy and I can't, so in my book that means you know more about most phenomena than me ! But as I'm always telling people I used to be a succubus in a previous life, and I would say for banishing them: from instinct amber, and from what I have read in books a black knife. I believe it was that black knife which later evolved into the athame. Have a look at some amber and a black knife with that energy vision of yours and see if you agree with me.

Real amber is powerful for a lot of things. The Greeks called it elektron, because when you rub it over a cloth it generates electricity. I'm not sure of it being used for banishing unless the general positive aura of it pushes back negative things, but I don't have any of it presently anyway.

As for a "black knife," while a knife in general has its own metaphysical properties you need to be a bit more specific than that. There's a big difference between, say, an obsidian knife and painted steel.

In the lineage of Solomon there are many different Pentacles for the submission and constraint of spirits, and apparently the reason he was held in such high regard as a King. If you're familiar with them, they might be of use:

Pentacles of King Solomon

Solomonic Magick is certainly powerful when used correctly, but unfortunately I'm not presently that familiar with it. I can look at the pictures in your link and see the power in those pentacles, but I have no idea how to apply that power to the present situation. My focus has simply been in other areas for the last good while, like the Runes. Which have been useful, but I'm not quite sure how to use them for an Exorcism just yet either.

I'm presently working on restoring the guardian I banished before, inadvertently causing all of this (which, like I said, is embarrassing). He kept Zmeu away to begin with, so when healed of our previous conflict he should hopefully be able to keep him away again.



~:Shin:~

[corvidus]

My focus has simply been in other areas for the last good while, like the Runes. Which have been useful, but I'm not quite sure how to use them for an Exorcism just yet either.

~:Shin:~

The thread of discussion on the black knife reminded me of a story:

A friend of mine was once attacked by a sorcerer of significant skill. The sorcerer sent some sort of astral creature -- like a leech or worm -- to burrow into my friend's stomach. At first he wasn't aware, but did become physically ill.

To remedy the situation, he had the opportunity to visit another mutual friend, who removed the entity through astral surgery. Apparently the astral body needed literally to be cut open and sealed again in order to remove the entity.

Maybe this will give you ideas on how to adapt your knowledge of the Runes?
Is there a Rune that would make an excellent scalpel?

Good Luck

[Shinichi]

I'm familiar with soul surgery, but that is for a different ailment. While parasites and the like are a type of possession, they are very different from what has happened here.

I'm sorry if it seems like I keep shooting down suggestions, but please understand that I am dealing with a very specific kind of problem. A spirit that can suppress a human girls consciousness in order to control her body and speak through her voice is not going to go away as easily as a lot of other things will.



~:Shin:~

[corvidus]

I'm sorry if it seems like I keep shooting down suggestions, but please understand that I am dealing with a very specific kind of problem.

~:Shin:~

No worries. I've been a bit distracted with life over here and I misunderstood your situation.
Unfortunately, I don't have enough information to be much help.

But in the auyrvedic tradition, exorcism of spirits falls under Bhuta Vidya

[Shinichi]

I've noticed that Zmeu very much dislikes the name Athena (like, "the power of Christ compels you" sort of dislike), but I'm not sure if this is because of his own nature or because of the nature of the girl he is possessing, or simply because Athena is known for protecting young girls. In any case, I tried my hand at making my own version of a Solomon-ish Seal in order to construct a protection talisman.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0JSgS ... sp=sharing

I'm working on translating the writing into old Greek, which will make it somewhat more potent, and the name of the subject of protection (the girls name, in this case) will be written in the center circle.

Those of you who are more familiar with Solomon than I am, do you have any opinions on constructing a Protection Talisman like this? The magical principles are essentially the same, as far as I can tell. I'm just invoking Greek forces instead of Hebrew.



~:Shin:~

[witchpriest]

Hi Shin, have something for you, if you are certain you are dealing with an "Eastern European" spirit.

Told my Great-Aunt Nastya about your problem. She suggested this spell (She is a Slavic Witch):

Burn a piece of wood, or crush an incense, dark powder needed. Do this at sundown, cover with a piece of cloth.

Ask "Your Grandfather Spirit" to come to your aid, take a silent bath.

Go in the morning to your affected person's home.

Mix the powder from the night before with edible oil, draw the enclosed sign above her heart.

Feed her a spoon of butter sprinkled with salt. She should then ask "Her Grandmother Spirit" to come to her aid.

Tell her to go outside, throw pieces of bread (for birds). With arms crossed over her chest, say "Brother Bird Take This Evil Away, Sister Bird Bring Fortune."

Wrap a piece of the bread in the cloth (from the powder), bury it close to the house.

It is complicated and specific, but this is the nature of Slavic Magic.

I hope this is of some help, in any case, keep us posted!

-WP

[Matrozs]

Using my limited knowlegde here , please bear with me .
since I live in romania , I know that the romanian mythology was heavily influenced by slavic and greek beliefs.
The term "zmeu" is often associated with snakes , dragons( balaur in romanian) and other kinds of reptiles and what not . In folk tales about them , and trust me , we have dozens, the end is allways : Făt-frumos o omorît balaurul .(The beautyfull prince had killed the dragon). Only Fat frumos can kill them .
In most cases the entity has a form of a dragon , in others it has none , all sources agree that it likes to steal young beautyfull women . The epitet to steal , probably means to ... well you know.
Apparently it's incredibly hard to ger rid o' it , in the stories , when the young prince tries to kill it by cutting of it's head , 2 will grow back , after cutting them off 4 and so forth.. ( maybe a hint to the fact that mundane stuff won't kill it , i don't know).
Enough of fairy tales , some romanian scholars have identified the zmeu with another being from romanian lore , the " ei(i) '' with means them(masculine) or him , largely borrowed from fellow greeks , they are the spirtual counter part of the ''bacantele''.
When some sounthern dacian tribes have adopted the greek gods, and with that of course the wine ceremony of Dyonisus , the young girls used to get drunk and venture of to the dark woods at night , where they met the ''ei'' and had sexual intercourse . ( There is no agreement if they are good or bad enitities)
That might explain why it fears Athena.
I hope that my post is not as useless as it looks .
(Grammatical and spelling errors are probably frecvent , Im still learning English)

[RoseRed]

Actually, I'm much more interested in fairy tales. Please continue.

(I really hope you do). There are truths to be found in the lore if it can be understood in context.

[PoisonPen]

My area of expertise is Jungian. Snakes and dragons are archetypally phallic symbols. We're talking about very male energy, which may be why it has hostility to Athena, a strong female archetype. I think part of the problem may be the way you're approaching the situation. The male mode of thinking is aggressive and goal-oriented. It penetrates deeply but not broadly, so it tends to be single-minded and driven, but prone to missing subtleties. By bringing male energy to the conflict, you're essentially feeding the spirit, making it stronger. It's not uncommon for possessing spirits to feign weakness and pain to draw out even greater aggression which is actually increasing its power and control. My recommendation is to approach it with female energy. Don't come at it directly. The female mode of conflict is indirect.

Have you considered trying nothing? An odd suggestion, I know, but it's possible that all the attention and aggression you're bringing to this problem is making the problem worse. Be water. Allow it to express rage and hate, allow it to waste its energy on empty attacks. When the Soviet Union was closing in on Berlin at the end of the Second World War, the German Wehrmacht were low on everything: tanks, fuel, ammunition, and men. The strategy they used was called the "empty sack." They would dig into a position and light a lot of fires to make it look like they were prepared for a fight. The Soviets would bring in artillery and shell the German emplacements -- and meanwhile, the Germans would have crept away quietly and hid, letting the Soviets waste their strength bombarding empty defences. When the shelling stopped, the Germans would creep back to their fortifications. Perhaps a variation of this strategy could be used to defeat the aggressive male energy here. When it attacks, simply sit quietly and listen. Make a cup of tea. Sit patiently and let it rage and tire itself out. Then firmly offer emotional, empathic support, thereby using indirect female energy at your exhausted opponent.

(I know some folks here object to my characterization of male and female energy. I'm a Jungian and a structuralist and I believe male and female are inherent in the structure of the Universe itself. I offer my opinion for whatever it's worth; if you find the idea of structuralist concepts of male and female offensive, then by all means feel free to dismiss everything I've said.)

[Ušušur]

There are truths to be found in the lore if it can be understood in context.

This is very, very true... fairy tales are full of symbolism, and the more I read about occult I see a lot of stuff is connected.

For example...

when the young prince tries to kill it by cutting of it's head , 2 will grow back , after cutting them off 4 and so forth..

Sounds like Hydra from Greek mythology Hercules killed. It grows two heads where one was cut off and it appears invincible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lernaean_Hydra
It seems Athene was the one who gave idea to Hercules how to kill Hydra (with fire). So it makes sense Hydra (Zmeu) is afraid of Athene.

[Matrozs]

Thank you RoseRed;

There are truths to be found in the lore if it can be understood in context.

fairy tales are full of symbolism, and the more I read about occult I see a lot of stuff is connected.

Aye, it does .
Truly, there is a striking resemblance between the Zmeu and Hydra , potentially there are the same exact entity ...

So it makes sense Hydra (Zmeu) is afraid of Athene

One may whant to take advantage of that.

However , we can't be quite sure , maybe this "Zmeu" just lied to to shinichi , we can never take an enity that proved itself 'evil' for granted.
I hope shinichi will inform us what exactly happend in the last few days, maybe more info will come out. I can't say more untill then.

[Shinichi]

Witchpriest, thank you for that, but I face a conundrum in the fact that she lives quite a ways from me. Doing magick long distance is no big deal for me, but the specifics of that ritual are hard to fulfill. It did inspire a few ideas, though, including talking to my deceased grandparents. So thank you, truly. [smile2]

Matrozs, I agree with RoseRed in that there is much to be learned from Faery Tales. By all means, continue with anything you feel like sharing.

As for what has been happening, well. The girl in question began getting worn down, exhausted and sick. A lot of magical happenings occurred, and suffice to say Zmeu and I had our entanglements, and then yesterday he became insistent that I was "not smart for being ignorant" and that I needed to listen to something. Having learned my lesson about ignoring such comments from the last spirit that was attached to her, we sat down and had a talk. Yup.

He said that the reason she has been getting exhausted and sicker is because the more I fight him, the more he has to dig in to stay attached to her. The more I fight him, the more I invite others. And, he said he's not going anywhere until he gets what he wants anyway, though he wouldn't say what it is that he wants.

Of everything that he said, I realized the truth of the fact that we were essentially using the girls body as a battlefield, and fighting as we have been would naturally continue to drain and harm her. In the worst scenario, it's not impossible for a human to die from that sort of thing. I was also most concerned by the truth of the fact that she is a natural, untrained, open medium with no natural protection. True Mediums have a natural "openness" to them, which is why he is able to speak through her so easily in the first place. Even if I do banish Zmeu, it's true that another would just sweep in to take his place. Just like Zmeu jumped in as soon as the previous shadow-man was banished.

So, after our talk yesterday, I withdrew my attacking efforts, or what PoisonPen would call the "male energy" and such. Zmeu, in turn, loosened his "hold" on her. And as a result, she slept and rested better than she has in days.

So yeah. Time to be like water and follow a different route. Instead of trying to slay the dragon, I'm going to return to teaching the girl and initiate her so that, in time, she will have her own defenses against being attacked and taken advantage of by spirits. In the mean time, Zmeu is insistent that he isn't going anywhere, but even if his reasons are different he does seem to care about her well being enough to want her healthy. I don't really trust him, but as they say, it's better to deal with the devil you know.



~:Shin:~

[corvidus]

Very interesting turn of events, Shinichi.
Some thoughts, whether or not they're helpful.

So, after our talk yesterday, I withdrew my attacking efforts, or what PoisonPen would call the "male energy" and such. Zmeu, in turn, loosened his "hold" on her. And as a result, she slept and rested better than she has in days.

So yeah. Time to be like water and follow a different route. Instead of trying to slay the dragon, I'm going to return to teaching the girl and initiate her so that, in time, she will have her own defenses against being attacked and taken advantage of by spirits. In the mean time, Zmeu is insistent that he isn't going anywhere, but even if his reasons are different he does seem to care about her well being enough to want her healthy. I don't really trust him, but as they say, it's better to deal with the devil you know.

~:Shin:~

"The basic difference between an ordinary man [or woman] and a warrior is that a warrior takes everything as a challenge while an ordinary person takes everything as a blessing or a curse." -carlos costaneda.

If the sword doesn't work, then maybe the pen? To mean, maybe defeating this kind of dragon is through besting it in Philosophy?
Just a thought.

also, I've remembered this, which seems similar to your current situation: The Two Serpents, Astral Fluid and the Animal Nature

"A great fish coming from the left swims through all these waterways to poison and corrupt them. Its scales are as steel. From its mouth comes forth a lurid flame and its tongue is like a sharp sword. Its object is to force its way into the sanctuary of the great ocean to pollute and defile it and thus extinguish light, and causing the waters to become frozen, and the great circulatory water system may cease to operate.

"The occult meaning of this mystery is expressed in the words of scripture, 'Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made,' (Gen. iii-6). This evil serpent wished to accomplish his aim by first corrupting the brooklets below (mankind) and making them impure and bitter, so that flowing back to the great ocean their fountain head, it might become polluted. This is why he first seduced man and brought death into the world and entered into the heart of man from the left side.

p. 222

"There is, however, another serpent that comes from the right. These two serpents are they that are closely attached to man during his lifetime (the astral fluid and animal nature), as scripture saith, 'of all the beasts of the field that the Lord God had made,' these two are the most cunning, crafty and subtle in tempting and destroying man. Woe unto him who allows himself to be led on and seduced by the serpent, for death irretrievable is his doom, physically, morally and spiritually, both to himself and to those associated with him, as in the case of Adam who wished to know and become expert in nature's secrets and occult science. In revealing them and exciting within him a fictitious joy and happiness, the serpent acquired that influence and control over Adam that contributed to and brought his ruin and downfall and thus caused him to suffer, as also his successors. From the day that Israel came to the foot of Mount Sinai, the impurity and corruption wrought by the serpent has not disappeared from the world.

"Hear what saith scripture when Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree by which death entered into their souls or lower nature, 'And when they heard the voice of the Lord of the Alhim walking in the garden' (Gen. iii-8), or, as it ought to be rendered, had walked (mithhalech). Note further that whilst Adam had not fallen, he was a recipient of divine wisdom (hochma) and heavenly light52a-52b and derived his continuous existence from the Tree of Life to which he had free access, but as soon as he allowed himself to be seduced and deluded with the desire of occult knowledge, he lost everything, heavenly light and life through the disjunction of his higher and lower self, and, the loss of that harmony that should always exist between them, in short, he then first knew what evil was and what it entailed, and, therefore, it is written, 'Thou art not a God that approveth wickedness, neither shall evil dwell with thee' (Is. v-5); or, in other words, he who implicitly and blindly follows the dictates of his lower nature or self shall not come near the Tree of Life.

"Whilst the protoplasts had not as yet lost their innocence and purity, they heard within themselves the voice divine, the voice out of the Great Silence. Guided and directed by divine wisdom, they walked and lived in the divine light and were not afraid. As soon, however, as they succumbed to temptation, they lapsed into a state of sin, of sorrow and shame and found that though the voice was still audible, they could not endure to hear it; and the sense of sin pervaded and prevailed throughout the

p. 223

world up to the time when Israel stood at the foot of Mount52b Sinai, purified from all defilement and thus able to become conjoined with the Tree of Life, and partook of its fruits, beholding the celestial glory. They ascended higher and higher in the divine life, and lived in the enjoyment of the Beatific Vision being filled with that interior peace and tranquillity known and experienced only by those who understand the mysteries of the higher and divine life. The Holy One protected them by impressing upon them his divine name, so that the spirit of evil was unable to exercise power and influence over them and thus corrupt them. Thus they lived, pure and protected, until they bowed down and worshipped the golden calf. Then fell they from their high estate and lost the divine protection which was as a cuirasse or coat of mail against the assaults of evil that now again acquired power over them and brought death unto their souls.

"After their fall, scripture informs us, 'and when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, his face shone radiant with light, and they were afraid to come nigh unto him (Ex. xxxiv-30). Before this, however, it is written, 'and Israel saw the mighty hand of the Lord'; that is, they were able by the purification of the lower nature and mental and spiritual illumination, to attain unto the Beatific Vision and view the splendor and glory of the life on high. And so it is further written, 'and the people saw the thunderings and lightnings, and the sound of the trumpet' (Ex. xx-13). All these glories, however, departed from them after their lapse into sin, so that they could not even endure to behold and regard the luminous face of their intercessor Moses, for, as it is said, 'they were afraid to come nigh into him.'

"Remark, now, what is further stated, 'and the children of Israel stripped themselves of their ornaments by the Mount Horeb' (Ex. xxxiii-6), (Horeb here meaning Sinai). By which is signified, that Israel, after sinning, became divested of their safeguards, the ornaments of purity and integrity, and thus fell under the power of evil. So that, as is stated, 'Moses was compelled to take the tabernacle and set it up away without the camp and called it the Tabernacle of the Congregation' (Ex. xxxiii-7). For what reason?

[RoseRed]

Whatever type of dragon spirit/ zmue thing/ it is - it is male.

Dragons slain by knights in shining armor. The kick ass knights had pretty beat up armor but they cared for it well. Armor that still shines in a dragons cave. Where does that shine come from?

I would truly love to hear more of the lore if anyone is willing to share.

[Matrozs]

The kick ass knights had pretty beat up armor but they cared for it well

It depends what one understands as "armor" , if we look past the modern literature( XVII-XIX century) , at the tales which survived through spoken words , not ink and paper , then we are certainly not speaking about XI-XVI century style plate-armor . Most of the time it's chain mail .( early variants of steel chain mail were used probably well before 100 AD.)

Armor that still shines in a dragons cave. Where does that shine come from?

In the tales , the gallant prince usually just goes in the treasury of the castle ( a werid place to keep armor even if armors were worth a fortune , why would a king keep his armor where he keeps his kingdoms gold and jewelry?) ,and equips his chain mail . And the sources almost allways tell that the armour was of his fathers and his fathers before him ( probably going back centuries). If that would o've been made of proper steel , after a few battles , not even the most skilled blacksmith would' ve been able to save it .
In the tales , the prince Făt-frumos is rarely hit , but when he does, he doesn't even flinch!

Blacksmiths of ancient and early medieval times were known to cast spells over their swords to make them sharper , and over mail and plate to make the more durable (even historians agree to that , often call it bullshit , but we are not on atheistforum.org).
Common folk believed the smiths to have non-human powers , after all , they can bend steel , but maybe that is not the only reason.

Back to the tales ,
the armor was obviously very old , old things have power.
The prince sometimes has a horse he rides , swifter then any other horse ( compared to the peasants stable)(such horses are present in all mythologies that came in contact with a horse) , a wise one , it can speak (or the prince can speak with the horse)
The more one researches , he will find that the gallant prince that slew the zmeu and other beings is more a witch then knight .

[RoseRed]

So the gallant prince was horsed. Now that's interesting. Rings of Theurgy.

How I would love to be able to understand and explain fairy tales like that to my Grandchild. Please continue. You paint beautiful images with your words. It's a Gift.

[PoisonPen]

In Estonian myth, their central hero is Kalevide. He comissioned a legendary blacksmith to make a magic sword for him, then killed the blacksmith rather than pay for it. The sword became cursed to destroy him. The sword was immensely powerful, but it continually turned in his hand, hurting and killing those he cared about. Eventually he threw the sword away into a lake, but it was washed down a river and one day while Kalevide was trying to cross a stream, it cut off his legs and he bled to death.

But death was not the end. The gods punished Kalevide for his sin by raising him from the dead and, immortal but still legless, set him on the back of an immortal white horse. They forced him to place his hand in a cleft in the stone at the gates of Hell, where it became trapped. And there he stands for eternity atop his white horse, one hand trapped forever in the stone, guarding the gates of the underworld, both a silent guardian and a warning to others.

It's an unusual story in several respects, which is why I find it so fascinating. Where most variations of the Hero with a Thousand Faces make him an unconquerable masculine figure armed with a big, penetrative steel penis, the story of Kalevide is a warning of the dangers of the male. Kalevide's pure, archetypal maleness, his aggression and violence, cost him his life as his own penis cuts off his legs. The white horse is symbolic of purity, so he remains a Galahad figure, but one doomed by his own masculinity. And to drive home that fact, he's forced to spend eternity with his arm trapped in a stone vagina. It's an inversion of the usual moral lesson, though it has interesting parallels to the Arthurian grail myth with its grail archetypally representing the power of the female, and only the chaste Perfect Knight being worthy to find it and sit at the Siege Perilous. Kalevide is closer to Lancelot in the grail myth, the object lesson on the dangers of unrestrained male energy.

[Shinichi]

Where does that shine come from?

Light. [wink]

as his own penis cuts off his legs.

I'm sorry. I get the psychology thing, I do. But that made me laugh so hard. [lol] Speaking as a novice swordsman, I've never once thought of my swords as being phallic. Nor have I ever saw a penis and imagined it as a cutting tool.



~:Shin:~

[akimbomoss]

Shinichi,

If you were going to go through that thing with Athena, would you have to ask her if she wanted to do it since you have that ability? I heard spirits change over time and if you can ask then it follows that you have to.

Like Athena was showing Herculese to be patient but then in another story she shows her wrath sending Arachne to Hades. If the Arachne incident happened before the Herculese incident then we would logically conclude that Athena evolved right? Or are the stories something that can never be proven so the gods could do whatever immoral thing they want.

If my dad was famous and he slept around with all kinds of women, then another woman painted my dad doing such acts and captured popular attention of the masses, I don't think I would use my powers to imprison the artist because it's not moral. Freedom of speech trumping wrath. Is Athena moral today and that's why we choose to work with her or do we simply take our chances that they will do the right thing because we really need their help?