How to *Kill* Spiritual entities.

[Haelos]

I've probably already doomed myself with my acceptance of no one having an answer for this, but;

Everyone goes on to mention how important banishing are.
You know, that's all well and good, but all you're doing is sending your problems out into the world to screw with somebody else. And that isn't cool.
Especially when working with particularly nasty creatures, I'm wondering if there is some way of permanently ending their current incarnation. Or at least, a method of forcing them to learn the lessons they need to know in order to progress spiritually and transcend past their lower states.

This question also applies to servitors, tulpas, and whatever other names you have for self-constructed entities.
Is there any way to end the existence of one of these entities and have them enter the cycle of reincarnation? Or at least, detach them from you, so your energy will not bring them back?
Every source I read about say to either program a kill-switch into the sigil, or simply stop thinking about the servitor and giving it energy. How can this be amended when the servitor is sentient, and able to act fully on its own, and make reasons?
Even the smallest thoughts can bring such entities back, and these creatures may conitnue to work in the background. They always seem to be a part of you. Even after heavy banishings, it isn't hard to call them back.


Any guidance or resources on this matter would be greatly appreciated.
Why do we trap the things that want to harm us? Why don't we teach them to be better, or at the very least, end their existence so some stupid person can't unlock their anger in the future?

[cyberdemon]

can a goldfish kill a human?
maybe. perhaps. against all odds. if the human went underwater. perhaps shark friend could help.

[Desecrated]

I don't think I've ever read anything about actually killing them. You can technically destroy them and then consume them, but that obviously has some drawbacks.
Trapping them is a valid way of getting rid of them and then not just sending them to someone else.

In terms of changing them, I don't think we can, the animals/humans living on this plane is interesting because they can change and be different things, but a being of utter darkness or a being of light is just that. A rock can't be turned into water.

[superhelicase]

I honestly thing anyone can change, though many entities are so set in their ways that it is statistically impossible, though not theoretically impossible. I also believe an entity can be unmade, but you would probably need the help of some serious higher level consciousness to do so, and a way of rebalancing the energy after.

[Haelos]

can a goldfish kill a human?
maybe. perhaps. against all odds. if the human went underwater. perhaps shark friend could help.

This analogy doesn't really work here.
Humans are Gods. Every other spiritual entity is below us on the food chain. If that weren't the case, we wouldn't be able to subdue both demons and angels alike into doing our bidding.

I know that sounds like a very arrogant statement, but the ideas behind it are not. The reason higher beings listen to us is because man was created in the image of the creator (a metaphor, and an actual, tangible idea).


Everyone answered pretty close to how I assumed they would.

I do need to point out that even negative entities are evolving. They're just doing so to the opposite side of the spectrum. We're evolving towards union with the non-physical Source, whereas negative entities are evolving into physicality, becoming a part of existence itself.
We're evolving to the conscious end of the spectrum, negative entities are evolving to the unconscious end.

I guess I'll leave this question opened, but the answers given pretty much sum up my current ideas.
Thanks for all of your help guys.

[powessy]

can a goldfish kill a human?
maybe. perhaps. against all odds. if the human went underwater. perhaps shark friend could help.

This analogy doesn't really work here.
Humans are Gods. Every other spiritual entity is below us on the food chain. If that weren't the case, we wouldn't be able to subdue both demons and angels alike into doing our bidding.

I know that sounds like a very arrogant statement, but the ideas behind it are not. The reason higher beings listen to us is because man was created in the image of the creator (a metaphor, and an actual, tangible idea).


Everyone answered pretty close to how I assumed they would.

I do need to point out that even negative entities are evolving. They're just doing so to the opposite side of the spectrum. We're evolving towards union with the non-physical Source, whereas negative entities are evolving into physicality, becoming a part of existence itself.
We're evolving to the conscious end of the spectrum, negative entities are evolving to the unconscious end.

I guess I'll leave this question opened, but the answers given pretty much sum up my current ideas.
Thanks for all of your help guys.

Hello Haelos

First off humans are far form gods and if it were not for angels they would be nothing at all. Angels allow us to be here in their worlds as we are a part of them and there path to the father.

As for you having any dealings with angels or demons is because you are an allowed soul and this is not for the reason you think. The angels and demons you speak of were tricked and brought here and can not be born to earth this is not there world, and they can be born here. This would be similar to a chicken being born of a dog the embryonic programming would not work. Tell me one angel or demon that has done anyone's bidding I would be curious to see this. I deal with them all the time and they only wish to find answers not get wrapped up into all these mind games so many people have wrapped up in their minds .

To answer your question no you can do nothing about the angels or demons only some one that has become themselves can have any impact on them. The soul is in two parts the higher mind and the lower mind until the higher mind descends into the mind "your current existence" to find itself, and to start learning how to become itself you will end up in the reincarnation cycle over and over again. The thing you do not understand is the angels brought here have a small little program in them keeping all of us in the reincarnation cycle. The angels/shadows enter into your higher mind and release a program that tells you how to become yourself after death once they find your mind in life normally as a child. The program has been used over and over again for hundreds of years awaiting the true angels of earth to awaken and to finally become themselves again.

Can they(entities, tulpas, demons) reincarnate? no they are not from here and can not be born to this world. You know what makes me laugh is if everyone understood what was really happening they would realize how weak and pathetic we are as a species. The real kicker is what is really happening in the veil and not one person will ever even know until way later, once it is to late.

Powessy

[Stukov]

What are you trying to get rid of?

[RockDemon]

I was thinking recently that banishments are sort of addictive and, in the long run, useless. Of course, my experience with them is little and I use them for my negative traits only so far. I didn't use it for any spirit. Anyway, there is this pattern with the negative traits. So I do LBRP, maybe even BRH then. I get into super balance and I am super grounded. Then as some time passes (maybe a day or longer, maybe just 10 minutes, the duration depends on many things) the effects of the banishments are wearing out. I am again out of balance, I am not attentive, forgetting things and so on. Thus, I need to do another banishment. And this resembles an addiction pattern to me. And this is why in my opinion Bardon doesn't give any banishing techniques in the beginning as opposed to GD. In steps 1-3, you directly work with the negative traits transmuting them with their roots to have a permanent effect instead of temporary banishment.
In summary considering the things above, I think the same way is with the spiritual entities and I support your idea of searching for alternative ways. I hope you find them.

[WillowDarkWytch]

Motumbá Àse!

Psychic entities such us thought forms, constructs, servitors, etc. can be "destroyed", or better said, disolved. Energy isn't destroyed just transformed. Angels, Demons, Gods, elemental spirits etc etc CAN'T be disolved, destroyed nor anything like that, you may ONLY banish (in case of demons and spirits of elements) or asked to depart (angels, gods and higher things).

As for humans being "gods", not so much. We're "Gods in potential" or "Potentialy Gods", that meaning we can create, fisicaly and spiritualy/psychicaly. We are NOT the most high creature below "GOD".

Angels DON'T DO our bidding, that's a mistake and a miscomprehension of what ceremonial magick and evocation is. Angels, olympic spirits, and such, will ONLY do things for us that are part of the Demiurges Plan and Will. Not ours. Maybe our Will, as in our HGA's Will, not our egoistic will.

Demons do our bidding because they're commanded and controled through angelic and divine names and formulas, not because we are so great. Without that, trying tu make a demon do our bidding would be suicide, psychologicaly, mentally and even physycal suicide.

When you banish, let's say "sloth", you are not just banishing your lazyness, because if that was the case, you could work INSIDE yourself, transform yourself, disolve the "seeds" of your lazyness. BUT when you're banishing "sloth" you actualy are banishing the whole idea of it, so, you would be actualy working with a "demon". You can't destroy sloth, as long there's people that may "fall into its influence", it can't be destroyed, you may only banish it from your sphere of sensation.

We you do work with spirits, ancestors, "living gods", etc, you realize that we do have a tendency (as magicians) to believe that we actualy are the sun and angels and spirits are just planets and satelites floating arround us. That's not it.

Actualy, I don't believe that everyone that talks about evocation actualy have done a real and effective evocation. In the net there's plenty of mystical deliriums.

Even the most great magicians don't make "angels and demons" do their bidding. That just doesn't happen.

Humans have a lot of divine potential, as long they are in balance, harmony, brother and sisterhood with Nature (as in COSMOS)

Saravá
Idansinají

[Calicifer]

Well, I'm with author here. We are above spiritual beings in potential. It is only our inherent weakness is which keeps us from achieving spiritual greatness and superiority. You know why we are far more superior than anyone else? Because we are dynamic, we can change and adapt. We can learn and to pass our knowledge and experience. Spiritual beings are immortal, they do not carry off springs and thus are very stagnant. They had reached their potential at the moment of creation. We on the other hand, even with society practically being in middle ages of spiritual enlightenment are capable of quite a bit already just by reading these forums. And that we are if not amateurs against professionals who could study and practice magick their all lives and be born in society which progressively seeks and perfects their knowledge of the other world.

I actually dream of a society which would not only enslave other humans, species, machinery if we come to that point, but also and spiritual beings for their every day lives. Sadly, we are too weak and pathetic for that. Instead of strength, tenacity and cunning we have decadence, weakness and sin.


As for your original question, I do not know. We did managed to kill a demon which attacked us. It was quite easy actually, just focus your telekinetic energy into it and burst it open and later its flesh and blood was feasted upon. But sadly, forcing it to confront you in astral/ethereal realm is a challenge in itself. Even more, in actually fighting and defeating it if you are not a predatory soul to begin with.

[WillowDarkWytch]

Motumbá Àse

Well, I'm with author here. We are above spiritual beings in potential. It is only our inherent weakness is which keeps us from achieving spiritual greatness and superiority. You know why we are far more superior than anyone else? Because we are dynamic, we can change and adapt. We can learn and to pass our knowledge and experience. Spiritual beings are immortal, they do not carry off springs and thus are very stagnant. They had reached their potential at the moment of creation. We on the other hand, even with society practically being in middle ages of spiritual enlightenment are capable of quite a bit already just by reading these forums. And that we are if not amateurs against professionals who could study and practice magick their all lives and be born in society which progressively seeks and perfects their knowledge of the other world.

Franz Bardon talks about our "supposed" superiority in means of elementary energy. We are the only mcreatures created by God that are "tetrapolar", or comformed by the four elements (without counting Aether). Angels and Archangels usualy are made of 3 and elemental spirits of 2 or 1, the element itself.

Yes, in that way we are "complete". But, when we go higher we go losing this tetrapolarity, we first lose earth, so we stop being physical beings... Does that bring us "down" in supremacy? NO. It means actually the other way areound. When we stop reincarnating it means we have overcome THIS task, and in the spirit world we have other kind or learning and growing.

Angels are not "independent", are part of God, so, they ARE superior, they just don't have free will... because they think what God thinks.

We, and God, are the only tetrapolar creatures, but that doesn't makes us superior. We're "in its image" and at the same time, its opposite. And the closer to God, the less "individual" we are.

I actually dream of a society which would not only enslave other humans, species, machinery if we come to that point, but also and spiritual beings for their every day lives. Sadly, we are too weak and pathetic for that. Instead of strength, tenacity and cunning we have decadence, weakness and sin.

Dreaming on enslaving people and spiritual beings??????

As for your original question, I do not know. We did managed to kill a demon which attacked us. It was quite easy actually, just focus your telekinetic energy into it and burst it open and later its flesh and blood was feasted upon. But sadly, forcing it to confront you in astral/ethereal realm is a challenge in itself. Even more, in actually fighting and defeating it if you are not a predatory soul to begin with.

Ok.

You're not serious, right?

[cyberdemon]

i guess some people don't understand food chains

[WillowDarkWytch]

i guess some people don't understand food chains

More like they missunderstand what the "old masters" or occult teachers have taught or said.

Do you imaging humans being the most high creature in the universe? ...Poor universe LOL

Saravá!
Idansinají

[Haelos]

More like people misunderstand what I say.

I'm well aware that things are more complex than how I stated in my OP. I said it like that to get to my point, and nothing more.

I've extracted about as much usable information as I can out of this thread, and my plan is to just let it die. You can feel free to continue discussion here, so long as it remains on topic.

Thanks for everyone's help.

[cyberdemon]

its a good question. and sonething we dont know yet. perhaps we'll find out someday.

[Haelos]

its a good question. and sonething we dont know yet. perhaps we'll find out someday.

Yes, perhaps.

People take me the wrong way sometimes. There is nothing malevolent behind my pursuit of knowledge. I seek to find. That is all.
It doesn't matter what your or my uses of this knowledge is. We'll be judged at the end, stop judging in life.

[Desecrated]

We, and God, are the only tetrapolar creatures, but that doesn't makes us superior. We're "in its image" and at the same time, its opposite. And the closer to God, the less "individual" we are.

What about other gods?

[RockDemon]

We, and God, are the only tetrapolar creatures, but that doesn't makes us superior. We're "in its image" and at the same time, its opposite. And the closer to God, the less "individual" we are.

What about other gods?

Can't say that Willow meant exactly the following, however, if he's talking from the hermetic point of view then by God I guess he means the ALL from the kybalion. All the other Gods - deities are just a part of the ALL. They are just higher spiritual beings than we humans are thus they are perceived as Gods by ourselves.

[WillowDarkWytch]

We, and God, are the only tetrapolar creatures, but that doesn't makes us superior. We're "in its image" and at the same time, its opposite. And the closer to God, the less "individual" we are.

What about other gods?

Can't say that Willow meant exactly the following, however, if he's talking from the hermetic point of view then by God I guess he means the ALL from the kybalion. All the other Gods - deities are just a part of the ALL. They are just higher spiritual beings than we humans are thus they are perceived as Gods by ourselves.

Motumbá Àse

Yes, I was talking in "Bardon's paradigm" or Hermetic point of view. To make it more undestandable, more "universal".

Actually, as an ATR initiate, I have a some what different cosmogony. For us there's God (Olorun/Olodumare, Nzambi Mpungo or Mawu-Lissá for Yorubá, Bantú and Dahometon) and there's its agents, being Orisa, Minkisi or Vodun. Here in America (Specially Caribean and Latin America) there are more "spirits" like Lwa, Misterios (mysteries), Encantados (enchanted ones), Caboclos, Exus and Pombagiras. The Afro-American or Afro-indigen cosmology it's pretty much the same along the wold, just different names. If I begin talking about that to explain the universe, we wouldn't agree because I'd be talking from just "one" point of view.

That's the reason why I used Bardon as an example, he was pretty much universalist. I guess you got that

Saravá!
Idansinají

[RockDemon]

I have some questions regarding this topic and some insightful (at least I think so) ideas.If any of you have ideas please go in. So yes we - humans are tetrapolar, but the supposed supremacy comes not from that. I am not sure I understand these topics well enough since Bardon talks about those in the advanced steps. However the supremacy comes from the 5th 'element'. The upper part of the pentagram - the spirit. The spirit is immortal and thus it helps us to prevent our individuality as far as my neophyte's knowledge allows to conclude. And I read from some sources and if memory serves, Bardon as well state that the elemental beings envy humans because of the spirit. Now why would they? Again if memory serves some sources and Bardon perhaps as well state that over the course of time the elementals dissolve into their primary elements. Thus they are not immortal. Thus there indeed should be a way to quicken the process of their dissolution.

[WillowDarkWytch]

Motumbá Àse!

So yes we - humans are tetrapolar, but the supposed supremacy comes not from that

Yes, you're right.

However the supremacy comes from the 5th 'element'.

Hmmm no, all in the Universe has 5th element, Akasha, Aether... Prana, Chi, Àse. So, no, we're not going to be supreme because of spirit, it's because of our Consciuosness level.

And I read from some sources and if memory serves, Bardon as well state that the elemental beings envy humans because of the spirit.

I don't remember that, actually. Elementals ARE made of spirit, I mean, they are made of their element (to begin with, they evolve and have more elements added) but Akasha or Aether it's the one that gives them life, they DO have spirit as everything living in the Universe. Maybe they're confusing it with the divine spark, that part of God that lives within us. They have more of a "Colective Consciousness" just like animals, but that is in their most basic forms. They do have a "Evolutionary Scale" just like us. I know there's a book about it but I don't remember the author, let work my mind and take it out of the back of my head hehehe

Again if memory serves some sources and Bardon perhaps as well state that over the course of time the elementals dissolve into their primary elements. Thus they are not immortal.

They don't "dissolve" into their element. The evolve just like us. From "element" it self to elemental spirit, to deva or higher elemental, to higher deva or lesser angel, to Maha Deva or Angel/Archangel or even a Deity (example: rock to gnome, gnome to gnome king, gnome king to earth angel, earth angel to earth ruler angel... and so on) They have their own evolutionary hierarchies. They don't just dissolve, as we just don't dissolve. And I don't know if it was Bardon who said that, maybe it's a missundertanding of his diciples. It happens after the "master" is dead, people wants to continue his work and tend to mix or put things that really are not that well.

Being tetrapolar doesn't make us supreme, but makes "perfect". And elementals are not "inmortal" as we are not inmortal neither.

Let's keep on this!

Saravá
Idansinají

[Calicifer]

Motumbá Àse
Franz Bardon talks about our "supposed" superiority in means of elementary energy. We are the only mcreatures created by God that are "tetrapolar", or comformed by the four elements (without counting Aether). Angels and Archangels usualy are made of 3 and elemental spirits of 2 or 1, the element itself.

Yes, in that way we are "complete". But, when we go higher we go losing this tetrapolarity, we first lose earth, so we stop being physical beings... Does that bring us "down" in supremacy? NO. It means actually the other way areound. When we stop reincarnating it means we have overcome THIS task, and in the spirit world we have other kind or learning and growing.

Angels are not "independent", are part of God, so, they ARE superior, they just don't have free will... because they think what God thinks.

We, and God, are the only tetrapolar creatures, but that doesn't makes us superior. We're "in its image" and at the same time, its opposite. And the closer to God, the less "individual" we are.

You are thinking in completely wrong terms. A superior being does not have to be of higher frequency, purity or plane. Superiority means that it must have will and skill to overcome others and rain supreme. I base this on our dynamic nature, ability to ever improve and to become something else. Due to this, I conclude that we can achieve ever greater skill and wisdom in everything we do. First, from actually enlightening humanity to spirit world and later, enhancing humanity's potential via genetic manipulation and biomedical implants if we need more, far more power to challenge other world. This is of course a dream, an idea. I never pretended to give anything solid outside of my dreams.

You're not serious, right?

Sigh. My dream is not being dreamt. It was thought of. It is just a metaphor for god's sake. The fact of killing such entities however is real. Well, real as it can be in this field. It was an experience. Not exactly a dream, but rather one where you suddenly ''awake'' somewhat or fully aware under distress. It felt like an assault in various levels, visually, spiritually, emotionally. Despite this, telekinesis was used in order to get a grasp of demon's chest first and later to expand it until entity breaks apart. It wasn't hard thing to do, but a force of effort was felt in order to muster this energy. In the end, entity was feasted upon. Its flesh actually tasted like chicken, but blood...blood was invigorating. The feeling of power flowing in was experienced then combined with visual experience of drinking demonic blood.

I hope that explains experience that we had.

[WillowDarkWytch]

Motumbá Àse!

I'm not "thinking in completely wrong terms". I'm thinking and talking from a hermetic and/or esoteric, traditional terms. I gave example of what in occult tradition is taught. Maybe you're a little right, as for african gods, for example, ARE superior than us because they can achieve more stuff and rign over us, BUT they're also in a higher vibration. If not, they'd just be "devils" or what commonly known by demons (not the "demon" that is actually a Daimon and it's in a higher vibration as well, I mean demon as what common people believe demons are). Let's remember, that for occult tradition in general, matter is the lowest and most dense state of energy, so, even "demons" are not bound to the mortal coil as we do.

And maybe these being might be destroyed, but not by any human, at least not an encarnated one. You try it and the result would be death in a good case, schizofrenia and other mental and physical illnesses in the worst. And I believe that they would go by the latter.

Saravá
Idansinají

[Napoli]

All I can say from 'The Kybalion' is that there are some humans who have mastered the Hermetic wisdom to such degrees that they are almost near to the Gods themselves. Who knows they have evolved further? If that's possible for human beings to do then it is possible to destroy demons, but not the ones who are Gods. The latter is basically immortal. The bottom line is we human beings should not underestimate our potential nor be so sure of it at this stage of our evolution.

[Calicifer]

You see, I take humanity as a whole, not individual. Individual can be easily destroyed, but entire humanity is nigh impossible to break. With human spirit and unkillable ideas and all that. We in fact already did it something like that, wage war against other world in a guise of Christianity. Destroying old ways and wiping them out of humanity's memory. Look at those Gods now! They are such insignificant pigment in our world that they as might be non-existent.

To add salt to injury, they will declare your holy spirits as demons and will drive them out with their own power thus proving that they are superior. Even though, if it was done simply by siding with the other side, magick is still just partly done by other entities. All is achievable by an individual himself even if it is harder that way.


As I said, experience was about destroying such an entity. I personally do not believe it was true, maybe a feint of that entity, an illusion, a trick. Even though, assault was real, ill-intent to harm was real and reward was real. That feast on the demon closely reassembled effects on the body that is experienced after other raids into astral realm to hunt entities there. You feel energized and without any need for food quite long time after an experience.

My own negative (being attacked) experiences with them are little different. They prefer to materialize in physical plane to hurt me. I woke up in agony, moaning even from pain. It was focused on a single spot and I saw red light pouring into my room. It was not a dream nor I imagined things. Light only intensified and it was not brief. I felt that it was waiting to confront him. Sadly for him, I did not had time for that, next day was busy. I told that and I cast a spell on myself. Demon could not do shit to me from that point on instantly as I cast it. Same and in ethereal or astral plane. You just intensify your attacks, teleport out or wake yourself up. I never seen them as a threat to me, but I'm afraid of that they can do through indirect means. And that is despite seeing results on real world that they can express quite violently through telekinesis.