Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Clockwork Ghost
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Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

Okay, so here is where things start to get a bit harder. This discipline takes time to master, but when you do you will blow yourself away. The discipline of not thinking is again a progression from the first two. Start by becoming motionless, then reduce your focus from the whole world down to your breathing, and begin to slow everything down. Focus solely on your breath, and make this your whole world. Reduce the chatter, reduce all conscious thought, and then let yourself slip into a state of absolute nothingness.

The key to this exercise is not to try to stop thinking, or you will simply think about not thinking. You don't want to force yourself into this exercise, it works through a state of release, and surrendering to the subconscious self. It's important to take this slowly, through the progression of motionlessness to breathing, then to not thinking, as simply switching off your mind will seldom be profitable, and you will quickly jerk back into conscious thought as your brain madly craves stimulus.

This is where we get into a more meditative state, as opposed to simply not moving and then focusing on your breathing - this discipline doesn't require you to consciously participate, it simply requires you to let go. The first few times you do this you will probably jerk back to thinking immediately on becoming still of mind, as the state tends to make you go 'hey wow! I'm not thinking!' which is a thought, of course. Also, don't aim for a certain period of time - just let yourself go for as long as you remain in the state, and then check the length of time that elapsed.

I know quite a few people who claim amazing lengths of non-thinking, but often they are mistaking a certain degree of mental stillness as true non-thought. I personally record true non-thinking as a kind of mental state of limbo, similar to sleep, though while conscious - even attaining non-thinking for five seconds is a major accomplishment.

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Haelos »

Even after years of meditation, I gain one split second of silent mindedness a day, IF I'm lucky.
I have the occasional slip into this trance during waking activity, but it doesn't last long enough to do anything productive with.

I have to add that if those people you mention say they experience such lengths, they're either mistaken, or lying. I've only ever heard of a few masters that can hold would-be-record times of gnosis, and they claim minutes, at best.

I don't have too much more to add on this, really. This is the state almost all magick is to be performed in, and the only other relatable states are complete exhaustion and sexual release. Those three states are the only reliable ways of entering gnosis, and all practitioners of any style of magick should make gnosis their primary focus, even before casting any spells. It's tough work.

For anyone after this post who might not know; Gnosis = Not Thinking
It's also the most potent time your conscious and subconscious connect with each other.
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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

Wednesday - completely let go and went for maybe two or three seconds completely without thought. Sensation of being 'switched back on' immediately afterwards, like I'd had a complete system reboot.

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Eremita »

Hello. I haven't written in for a few days. Life is weird.

I'm still working on these exercises at times, though I haven't written anything in my journal as I haven't always had it with me.

I've started trying to move from deep breathing to not-thinking. I can experience short bouts of mental silence, but they quickly evaporate (a few seconds at best). I find that the deep breathing definitely helps - once my breath is slow and regular, my mind tends to slow down in tandem and thoughts become less chaotic (although still not controllable to any great extent).

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

Eremita wrote: Hello. I haven't written in for a few days. Life is weird.
It's all good, Eremita - just do what you can, when you can. I don't expect you to be here all the time, I'm the same - life outside the forum is extremely busy for me right now.
Eremita wrote: I'm still working on these exercises at times, though I haven't written anything in my journal as I haven't always had it with me.
I've changed my journal into a smartphone app. I have a Samsung S5, so it's nice and big, and I write everything in a diary app and then upload it on to my computer diary whenever I get home.
Eremita wrote: I've started trying to move from deep breathing to not-thinking. I can experience short bouts of mental silence, but they quickly evaporate (a few seconds at best). I find that the deep breathing definitely helps - once my breath is slow and regular, my mind tends to slow down in tandem and thoughts become less chaotic (although still not controllable to any great extent).
A few seconds of not thinking is an incredible feat - well done!

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Eremita »

I attempted 22 minutes of meditation today. I spent about the last 5-10 minutes attempting to silence my thoughts, but had no success. I feel a lot better than before, though. :)

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Solarus »

Did 3 sessions of 20 minute meditation back-to-back-to-back last night (alarm sounds after 20 mins to make sure I don't fall asleep)... went through the usual process of motionless, breathing and then not thinking and then staring into the distance of my mind's eye with anticipation.... felt the usual progression of symptoms as my body and mind started to relax - waves of warmth over my body, body falling sensations, etc. Then the interesting stuff started happening... shadows kept sweeping over my mind. I'd be staring into the darkness of my mind with eyes closed but then what seemed like black walls would come sweeping into my field of view and then past me and that continued for a while. Then some auditory stuff came - I heard a cat sneeze in the room (I don't have a cat), the floor creaked in the other room in a way and spot it never has, I heard a VERY loud cracking noise from downstairs once. All along I felt a presence in the room. A heaviness, thickness in the air; a feeling of being ultra present in the moment. Tried to go deeper, tried play with the shadow walls but didn't go anywhere with it. Mind was mostly blank through out it except for some times I caught myself in some LONG thought runs (I have some stuff on my mind so that stuff kept popping up)...

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Maya The Generator »

It is hard... I experienced(consciously) not thinking few times in my life. Always after meditations or very hard working shifts. I must say It is hard to even try after motionless and breathing. I must start taking my chances before motion/breath practice, maybe this way it will be little easier. But I never began not thinking on purpose.

Good luck!
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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

Okay, I'm going to be posting my combined efforts in this thread now. I will state Motionlessness, Breathing, and then Not Thinking as a single exercise, as that is what they eventually become.

Last night I started again in earnest, but had been still doing the disciplines over the period I was away, just not keeping notes. I've been doing Liber MMM every day for six years, so it's become something of a habit.

Motionlessness: Ten minutes. Did this lying back in a padded office chair with my head resting to one side. Saliva build up wasn't much of a problem, but was noticeable.

Breathing: Then did fifteen minutes of conscious breathing while still. Started to feel like the room was disappearing around me and my breaths became the sound of a river. Experienced a degree of hallucination where the room became an expanded universe.

Not Thinking: Three seconds. I know this exactly as my screensaver is a clock and the clock jumped three seconds while I was watching it during the breathing exercise.

Magically I am working with the Ars Goetia at the moment, and this is drawing me into a very deep level of communion with what feels like a massive gallery. In the gallery are 72 plinths, each with a statue designed to represent a Goetic demon. Vassago and Asmodeus, along with Paimon to a lesser degree, are all highlighted by spotlights. I will be exploring this in the future through meditative trance.

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

Maya The Generator wrote:It is hard... I experienced(consciously) not thinking few times in my life. Always after meditations or very hard working shifts. I must say It is hard to even try after motionless and breathing. I must start taking my chances before motion/breath practice, maybe this way it will be little easier. But I never began not thinking on purpose.

Good luck!
Praise Teh Sun \[T]/ [cool]
The key is to use the first two disciplines to build up to the third. Don't become motionless, but instead stop all motion. Don't focus on breathing, stop focussing on everything else. Once you release things, let them go - don't replace them. When you are still, and breathing is happening naturally, then release your consciousness and drift.

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

I've been getting very limited results over the last few days in regards to this - I can go for as long as I want motionless, breathing isn't much of a problem for up to 15 minutes, but not thinking just isn't working right now - I can get maybe a couple of seconds tops? I think I might be catching a bug too - going to pull back and focus on the first two disciplines for a while, let the third slowly build up.

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

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Clockwork_Ghost wrote:I've been getting very limited results over the last few days in regards to this - I can go for as long as I want motionless, breathing isn't much of a problem for up to 15 minutes, but not thinking just isn't working right now - I can get maybe a couple of seconds tops? I think I might be catching a bug too - going to pull back and focus on the first two disciplines for a while, let the third slowly build up.
This is what I've noticed over however long I've been attempting meditation.

You mentioned earlier that you've been performing Liber MMM for years now - was there ever a period in which you were able to attain longer periods of no-mind?

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

This discipline is incredibly hard because the human mind doesn't switch off easily, it craves stimulus. People mistake passive observance for 'no mind' but you're still consciously observing things in that state, and you still have thoughts, you are just observing them.

I've been doing these exercises for six years and they don't get any easier. I have attained periods of deep trance, but no mind is still a state that you would have to have almost god like powers to keep up for any real length of time.

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

For example, look at the door and try to stop your thoughts. What are you looking at? If your immediate response is 'I am looking at a door' then you are not in a 'no mind' state, your mind is probably just going 'this door is boring, how long do I have to do this? This is stupid, what shall I have for dinner? Should I change jobs. Damn, stop thinking. Door. it's a door. It's white. I'm bored.'

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Maya The Generator »

Yo guys, long time. Even Clockwork knight is back while I was sick. I didn't comment on anything cause my brain just died this week(stupid virus [shh] ). BUT I tried my best to practice while in this ill state. I think I get it. This stance of not thinking. It is hard to archive on purpose but oddly enough when I stop caring about everything and just enjoy world and everything around me It comes. Stance of pure experience that is.

So, could you maybe tell me If my feelings are right? That was my goal?

I surely can not keep this stance for longer than few seconds cause of happines that comes with archiving it. And it is very dependable on my mode.

Keep good work guys!
aand Praise Teh Sun \[T]/
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The bomb of entropic chaos.
If some assholes levels a twelve gauge your way, you drain him, skin him and bash in his skull. Self-preservation is vital part of humanity after all. My favorite part, in fact
My mind is telling me NOOO but my BODY, MY BODY is telling me YEAS

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

Yes, you're spot on - this isn't a stance that you achieve by trying, it is a form of complete and utter release. In the same way that you will fail to meditate if you actively try to meditate, you need to stop trying to not think and simply stop thinking.

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Maya The Generator »

I tried some things in diffrent mods and I have to say it is not that hard. I need to know one thing: Sometimes when I enter this stance I feel perfectly well, I mean I can feel if something is wrong with my body but often if I am feeling good there is just this stance, not taking any tool on me.

But sometimes I feel like my brain is getting "colder?"/"strained?"... I absolutly have no idea how I could translate this feeling to words. Like I enter world of pure experience and my brain is starting to melt(after some practice I was thinking If I was to describe this with a scene it would be scene of some Sci-fi shit getting to warning zone on a scale and begining Core Meltdown) . It is really uncomfortable, I always stop right in spot if I encounter this feeling.

Anyone anything? Maybe somebody have some ideas if I am just crazy or it can be explained?

Other than that, keep good work and have fun.

Praise Teh Sun\[T]/
Illusion is the first of the pleasures.
The bomb of entropic chaos.
If some assholes levels a twelve gauge your way, you drain him, skin him and bash in his skull. Self-preservation is vital part of humanity after all. My favorite part, in fact
My mind is telling me NOOO but my BODY, MY BODY is telling me YEAS

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by beero »

Hi am I supposed to keep aiming for 30 minutes of motionlessness + deep breathing and also aim for a period of not thinking at the same time? one thing I'm not clear on is how am I supposed to measure any period of not thinking if I do it this way

many thanks

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

Nah, it's not necessary to do a full half hour of each, unless you really want to - meditating for over an hour will gain you some very interesting insights into your own abilities, even if those insights are simply that you can meditate for over an hour. Simply become motionless, get into a rhythmic pattern of breathing, and switch off. You will be motionless as you breathe, and both breathing and motionless whilst switched off, so all that really matters is that you gain each stage in turn and then build upon them.

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by beero »

I have been continuing with motionlessness + breathing each day and hoping to achieve no thought at the same time, I seem to be having no thought at times but I have no idea how to measure how long for
I have gone backwards at the moment in how long I can go with the motionlessness and breathing often managing about 20 minutes

last Thursday 30 minutes motionlessness + breathing before rising in the morning
last Friday 15 minutes motionlessness + breathing
last Saturday 20 minutes motionlessness + breathing
last Sunday 10 minutes motionlessness + breathing
Monday 10 minutes motionlessness + breathing
Tuesday (today) 20 minutes motionlessness + breathing

just to clarify when I give a time for motionlessness + breathing that is the total time I have meditated not for each exercise

if I start having a vivid little daydream type experience when doing these exercises is that a good sign it might seem to me that it is a sign of lack of conscious thought

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

The day dreaming is perfectly fin, beero - it'll help you no end in the future when we start the visualisation techniques, as you're going to need a pretty vivid imagination (or inner-eye). Don't stress about not maintaining for longer than 15 minutes, when we start using this as a form of gnosis then the process becomes far shorter. As long as you can attain and maintain each step, then that's all you need. Congratulations on the no-mind too, that's absolutely fantastic!

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

Okay, how are we going? I'm hitting three to five seconds a night now. Start to reduce but intensify - you're a total legend! Have you been following your progress? Look how far you've come! Could you meditate this long when you first began? Did you have this level of control over your motion and breathing?

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by frackture »

I've been away of the forum, but I'm still following the training program.

So far, I'm doing well with the Motionless + Breathing part. I'm achieving 20+ minutes with ease.
I'm trying to include the Not Thinking part, but i'm struggling. I think I'm still too new to this and I'm trying too hard, so I can't achieve total release. I say this because I felt like i'm "losing" myself too my unconscious for 2 or 3 times (i start to lose spatial awareness, and the physical notion of my body) and every time this happened my "brain" realized that and it stopped the process.

Despite that, I'm still happy with my results. It's been only a week of training, and i'm reaching 30 min of motionless and breathing quite consistently. I'm guessing that I need to keep exercising those two steps and the "not thinking" will come naturally.

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Maya The Generator »

I am quiet busy lately but on the other side I do a lot and it is very satysfying. Last night I was so proud of myself. I had like super terrible itch that was super annoying, I thought why not try not thinking now. For second or two I was realsed from my nightmare and my mind become clear but It was very fast that itch took away my stable state. It was first time that I truly felt that much altered from another state of mind(without drugs). [pray]

My other practice is lacking in attention but I need to work hard right now or It will be hard to maintain good financial balance(4 cats eat more than one person [tongue] )

[yay] I must say: I am so happy that I decided to join this community. I see lot of progress in my life from training my language, from reading your interesting opinions and questions and from real Practice now that I am more mature than my teenager party life. This month is special and I plan on truly transcending my chaotic past to more harmonized and stable state for better balance. [grin]

Keep yar Good Work and PRAISE teh SUN \[T]/ [cool]
Illusion is the first of the pleasures.
The bomb of entropic chaos.
If some assholes levels a twelve gauge your way, you drain him, skin him and bash in his skull. Self-preservation is vital part of humanity after all. My favorite part, in fact
My mind is telling me NOOO but my BODY, MY BODY is telling me YEAS

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by beero »

Hi clockwork ghost, what do you mean by reduce and intensify?
I have still been doing exercises daily but not so often managing to get to the 30 min mark, more often around 20 minutes, sometimes even less. even though I have managed to find time for the exercises daily, I sometimes forget to fill in my diary as well and have to try and think back to how long I managed for which isn't so good, but I think I can remember well enough what I achieved. as for no-mind, I have been experiencing brief periods of no-mind but find it difficult to see how to measure how long because I am trying to achieve this not thinking while lying on my back eyes closed and relaxing doing deep breathing. but I would say I have still only brief achieved periods of no-thought.

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