Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Clockwork Ghost
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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

beero wrote:Hi clockwork ghost, what do you mean by reduce and intensify?
I have still been doing exercises daily but not so often managing to get to the 30 min mark, more often around 20 minutes, sometimes even less. even though I have managed to find time for the exercises daily, I sometimes forget to fill in my diary as well and have to try and think back to how long I managed for which isn't so good, but I think I can remember well enough what I achieved. as for no-mind, I have been experiencing brief periods of no-mind but find it difficult to see how to measure how long because I am trying to achieve this not thinking while lying on my back eyes closed and relaxing doing deep breathing. but I would say I have still only brief achieved periods of no-thought.
Hi beero, don't worry about measuring no-mind, if you have achieved even a brief period of it then you have achieved the aim - I use the benchmark of three seconds, but the exact length of time is mutable. I am extremely impressed, by the way. [thumbup]

So far the focus has been on attaining motionless and maintaining it for as long as possible, and then doing breathing and then maybe a few moments not thinking. The next stage is to attain the degree of motionlessness you gained in half an hour in less time. You might have noticed that it takes a little while to really get motionless, you fidget for a little while, or you scratch your leg, or something happens which causes things to have to more slow down and stop, not simply go from being moving to a dead halt.

What I would like you to do is to set a fifteen minute period for motionlessness tops. If you feel still after even five minutes, and confident that you have arrested all motion, then go from there into breathing. When you are in a good breathing pattern, even if it's just five minutes (but again, fifteen minutes tops) then try for no mind. This is how we attain gnosis, but we have to sometimes go from moving to motionlessness, then control breathing and focus in a short space of time. This is called 'reducing and intensifying' - reduce the time it takes you to fully attain each state, you have proven to yourself that you can do it, you can sit there dead still and breathing in a controlled manner for twenty minutes - that is a serious achievement, and if you continue expanding in that way you will be meditating for two hours in no time, but we need to now take this in the other direction - five minute meditations which achieve the same results internally that a half hour mediation can do.

Does everyone understand?

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Maya The Generator
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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Maya The Generator »

Yeah [rofl] Thank you Clockwork-senpai!

Thats very key information. I was about to ask how people manage their time so they can fit so many activities.(even if it means to not think and laying perfectly still [grin] )

Have a good day and Praise teh Sun. [cool]
Illusion is the first of the pleasures.
The bomb of entropic chaos.
If some assholes levels a twelve gauge your way, you drain him, skin him and bash in his skull. Self-preservation is vital part of humanity after all. My favorite part, in fact
My mind is telling me NOOO but my BODY, MY BODY is telling me YEAS

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

How's everyone doing? Don't give up - keep focusing on stillness, breathing, then no mind. Very soon we start in on visualisations, which will blow your mind when you start pulling them off - they're basically self created conscious hallucinations [thumbup]

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Eremita
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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Eremita »

I am still practising the meditations on a more-or-less daily basis, but am rarely attempting 30 minute sessions. I have been very busy with university in the last couple of months, unfortunately - but that leads me to two other points:

Being busy has led me to make use of Liber MMM throughout the day whenever the opportunity arises. If I'm sitting in a lecture theatre waiting for the lecturer to turn up in 10 minutes time, I will use those 10 minutes to meditate.

Secondly, I've found that doing this helps me stay calm and grounded throughout the day. I feel as though Liber MMM has been a wonderful asset to general well-being.

I can achieve motionlessness quite quickly, and deep breathing is easy at this stage. So although I am sure that longer periods of practice are helpful, I'm finding shorter periods are still worthwhile.

Just something to think about if anyone else is struggling with these exercises.

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Serenaisa22 »

I am practicing every day. When I started with "non thinking", for the first few days my meditations were very short (I was always surprised to see, how little time has passed). For the last two days I manage to meditate for longer time, today easily half an hour. I manage to achieve some short periods of non thinking, maybe a second long.

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by beero »

Hi, I am stilll practicing this every day I usually manage about 10=15 minutes and I think I am still managing to achieve brief periods of no-mind - although, it gets a bit confusing for me when I start wondering whether I'm thinking about not thinking or something! I'm afraid even though I know what I've been doing every day I have still been a bit absent minded in filling in the magical diary, there are a few gaps there now. I've been getting a bit of a cough lately which has been hampering my progress as well. does it maybe still count as motionlessness if you have to swallow saliva?

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by shmatka »

not thinking comes easy for me, once I'm in a proper breathing state. I have a question, how does not-thinking co-exists with visualizations? I've had some minor visuals with my eyes closed, sitting down in darkness, nothing more than green forms and shapes coming from the background, moving around, appearing and disappearing as they will. I understand I'm just a witness to what I'm seeing. is there a way through conscious thinking, or with the use of will perhaps, to instead of just being the passive witness, actually interact with the visualization, make it as you want it to be, i mean color, shape, anything? i think it has more to do with the will rather than with the thinking bit

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by beero »

I have still been practicing every day reaching the 15 minute mark mostly but there have been a couple of days I haven't managed and only meditated for about 10 minutes. I reckon I've been experiencing brief periods on no-mind but it still feels quite a lot like I'm thinking about whether I'm thinking - is there a way around that?

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by frackture »

I'm in the same page as you beero.

Also, besides "thinking if i'm thinking" I feel that sometimes i'm thinking of something but i'm not conscious of it.

After i notice that i was thinking, it starts something like a inner dialog where i consciously analyze that i tought and what i tought. After this i try to clear my mind again and focus on breathing.

I'm not sure if I should try to stop this kind of situations, or just leave them be.

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Maya The Generator
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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Maya The Generator »

Yo! [yay]

I have exactly the same feeling you are talking about. I think our brains are just not trained enough so they search for anything to think about. It needs more practice and discipline, no more no less.

But as always I am curious what will some of Senpai says.

Have a good day and Praise Teh Sun within a Cloud \[T]/ [cool]
Illusion is the first of the pleasures.
The bomb of entropic chaos.
If some assholes levels a twelve gauge your way, you drain him, skin him and bash in his skull. Self-preservation is vital part of humanity after all. My favorite part, in fact
My mind is telling me NOOO but my BODY, MY BODY is telling me YEAS

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

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A wise monk was once asked by a health show what the most important secret to meditation was. The monk replied that the most important secret was that there were no secrets, no levels of mastery - meditation wasn't something you gained skill in, as skill suggested practice, and practice created dogma. Meditation isn't the switching on any more than it is also the switching off, and the letting go of the self with no fear of ever seeing it again.

You simply can't force this - this is a state of mind which will only occur when you get through all that 'Am I thinking about thinking?' crap. Dont ignore it, tune it out instead. Now, remember guys at the end of the day I'm still a highly functioning schizophrenic, and I hear voices all the fucking time. So what do you do? Do you remember the beginning of this exercise when we were doing motionlessness and breathing and I said that distractions like TV and radio and stuff are okay? Well, go back to that part of the process again, but let yourself become completely absorbed in the moment, sucked into whatever youre doing, but not anticipating it - almost as if this was the most perfect experience and you wanted to live every moment of it to the very second.

Build yourself up to an orgasmic state in your mind because you are experiencing the now on an absolute and singular scale - you are not comparing it to past mistakes or failures, nor are you seeking meaning in it. At this point you are no mind - what heavy drug users may call the 'crack-mind', for anyone whos kick may be chemognosis. You will know when you achieve this state because time becomes incredibly fluid. Its during this state of being that no mind takes place the most for me, either meditating during communion with my god, when he speaks to me and hears my prayers, or during periods of gnosis attained through sometimes dubious means.

The way to attain periods of no mind is to not head towards it, but to recede back into yourself until you reach that point that your inner voice is silenced. Cease to will things, or to attain things and instead let things come to you. This is the feeling that junkies receive from their fix - not that moment that it courses through you like raw electricity, but the moment afterwards where there is nothing but burnt ozone and this extremely hollowed out feeling, all the rotten flesh, the red worms, all taken away and the wounds washed clean.

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

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I just thought of what it is you're looking for - you're looking for 'the gap'. You know when you're just about to have an orgasm and your mind just goes 'eeeeeek' as the moment stretches, and youre not so much thinking and simply experiencing the moment? Well, thats it - the gap that unites those two states that sort of hovers in between, do you understand?

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Maya The Generator »

Thanks Clockwork Knight. After what you said I am sure now I need more time spent meditating. Just that. [thumbup]
Illusion is the first of the pleasures.
The bomb of entropic chaos.
If some assholes levels a twelve gauge your way, you drain him, skin him and bash in his skull. Self-preservation is vital part of humanity after all. My favorite part, in fact
My mind is telling me NOOO but my BODY, MY BODY is telling me YEAS

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

Stop trying to achieve this - you can't. Instead, simply let go of everything and fall. This isn't a pinnacle of success, this is the point you cease to strive and instead recognise that the sum of your achievements isn't what you have gained, but what you have been able to leave behind.

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Maya The Generator »

I understand what feeling you are trying to show us. I admit I lack words to properly answer you. I do not try to master meditation like a skill, more like a heart? [blush]

ahh, sorry. I got no idea how to express my feeling in that matter. [tongue]

Praise Teh sUn [cool]
Illusion is the first of the pleasures.
The bomb of entropic chaos.
If some assholes levels a twelve gauge your way, you drain him, skin him and bash in his skull. Self-preservation is vital part of humanity after all. My favorite part, in fact
My mind is telling me NOOO but my BODY, MY BODY is telling me YEAS

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Deathquota »

Clockwork_Ghost wrote:Stop trying to achieve this - you can't. Instead, simply let go of everything and fall. This isn't a pinnacle of success, this is the point you cease to strive and instead recognise that the sum of your achievements isn't what you have gained, but what you have been able to leave behind.
I can induce this state easier than I can do motionlessness. I've managed 20 minutes of motionlessness at maximum, but empty-mindedness is something that has been coming back to me recently, on a daily basis. I have not recorded my time yet- but I'll see what I can do (less academic constraints here now).
Studying tantra with my entire soul right now, If you mind.

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

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Maya The Generator wrote:I understand what feeling you are trying to show us. I admit I lack words to properly answer you. I do not try to master meditation like a skill, more like a heart? [blush]

ahh, sorry. I got no idea how to express my feeling in that matter. [tongue]

Praise Teh sUn [cool]
Master it like sleep.

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Maya The Generator
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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Maya The Generator »

Clockwork_Ghost wrote:
Maya The Generator wrote:I understand what feeling you are trying to show us. I admit I lack words to properly answer you. I do not try to master meditation like a skill, more like a heart? [blush]

ahh, sorry. I got no idea how to express my feeling in that matter. [tongue]

Praise Teh sUn [cool]
Master it like sleep.
Yes, that would be perfect
Illusion is the first of the pleasures.
The bomb of entropic chaos.
If some assholes levels a twelve gauge your way, you drain him, skin him and bash in his skull. Self-preservation is vital part of humanity after all. My favorite part, in fact
My mind is telling me NOOO but my BODY, MY BODY is telling me YEAS

Clockwork Ghost
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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

So yes, treat this exercise a bit like going to sleep - you don't lie in bed forcing your mind to sleep or you will simply end up with a mind that constantly seeks confirmation as to whether it is awake or asleep, much in the same way people are finding themselves thinking about not thinking. Instead, make this a process of letting go and switching off.

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by beero »

well I have still been practicing daily for about 15 minutes I have been getting some no-mind. funny thing is I think it has improved my sleep as well with the discipline of motionlessness and so on

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

It will do, yes - you're learning a form of self control and relaxation [grin]

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Maya The Generator
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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Maya The Generator »

I said I will write something and I will.

More or less this point of my practice gave me some reward in past few weeks. I am much more calmer right now and observation is one of my main hobbies(internal and external). There is so much to experience once you say to yourself: "shut this bullshit generator in you and see for yourself what you are made of" I recommend 10/10.

I have a feelin some of ya surrendered. I hope I am wrong.

Guys, do you remember what Clockwork said? He said we should stick together, help each other grow.

I get idea of how hard it is no maintain keeping your own journals, visiting this site(propably many other sites), doin what you must in mean time like job, sleep, family and friends communications but remember.

Maybe we are not here 24/7 for you, maybe we are here once in a half year but if you have some problem, questions or anything else you can ask here and after short discussion we can always share it in our forum "Help" category.

If somebody have wish to talk I am open.

I am no expert on anything, I have many experiences from life not strictly from occult field. Other than that, have fun guys. And show some feedback, It would be nice to know if this school is going to do anything or it should be just officially closed.

Praise Teh Sun [yay]
Illusion is the first of the pleasures.
The bomb of entropic chaos.
If some assholes levels a twelve gauge your way, you drain him, skin him and bash in his skull. Self-preservation is vital part of humanity after all. My favorite part, in fact
My mind is telling me NOOO but my BODY, MY BODY is telling me YEAS

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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Nahemah »

Thank you Maya, that was very insightful.

I'm familiar with Liber MMM, but have not worked from it.

However, I'm willing to help where possible and do have friends I can ask, with the required knowledge.

Please do continue to update and post when you can folk.

It would be a great shame to lose the support network once you've started this.

We can try to keep it going. [thumbup]
"He lived his words, spoke his own actions and his story and the story of the world ran parallel."

Sartre speaking of Che Guevara.

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Maya The Generator
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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Maya The Generator »

Thank you for actually giving an f word. [wink]

nice to know somebody cares. [grin]

Praise teh Sun [yay]
Illusion is the first of the pleasures.
The bomb of entropic chaos.
If some assholes levels a twelve gauge your way, you drain him, skin him and bash in his skull. Self-preservation is vital part of humanity after all. My favorite part, in fact
My mind is telling me NOOO but my BODY, MY BODY is telling me YEAS

Clockwork Ghost
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Re: Liber MMM discussion - Discipline 3: Not Thinking

Post by Clockwork Ghost »

Okay, let me know when you get up to this point and have achieved a couple of moments of mental stillness. This then leads back into sigils, and also leads in to deeper object concentration, and into creating false memories and visual representations of objects whilst fully realising they are hallucinations - mental control, in other words [thumbup]

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