Evocation from a Psychological Standpoint

[Asmus]

I, for one, find it a little bit far fetched that there are entities out there that are invisible to me unless I perform a ritual. Rather, i see these entities and their VERY DISTINCT personalities as different "i's", to put it gurdjeffely. I would like to know how the people on this forum feel about evoked "spirits". Are they some kind of other-worldly beings with preternatural abilities, or are they rather different portions of our mind, and personality?

Also, i would like to take this opportunity to report some sillyness concerning the "spirit" I like the most in the Goetia: Asmodeus. If you know about him, you know he's often associated with lust (along with knowledge and strategy); but Asmodeus only really "lusted" after one person in any recorded event, and he quit once he killed her or her family (i do believe). I would like to call some bullshit to the Goetia in regards to this unfair representation of this otherwise unblemished... entity.

[Calerioth]

That's an interesting question you bring up. The human mind is a powerful thing, so these "entities" could very well be extensions of ourselves. I guess it really depends on what you would like to believe. See, my opinion about entities that can only be seen when summoned is that they exist on another plane of existence, either the astral or causal plane (More likely the causal plane). There are certain "rules" that these entities must abide by when it comes to the physical plane, so that might be why they only come when summoned. That's my opinion, at least.

[Asmus]

Well, as a scholar (I dare label myself as such!), I would be skeptical about any such claims involving their existence in other planes of reality. While entertaining the idea of a multiverse, as Hawking does, is profound, there's no reason to believe these creatures could interact with this dimension. Even if they could manifest in other multiverses/planes of existence than their own, how was such an interaction established in the first place? Do multiple planes mean multiple gods? I don't particularly like to entertain the notion of a single deity. [crazy]

All kidding aside, i don't think a connection could have been established with any such beings in this kind of scenario. It's most likely they exist as parts of our own mind, I think. I DO, however, like how you brought up rules for existence. Our universe seems to abide a very specific set of rules; hawking theorizes, for instance, that there are probably other universes with different sets of rules than our own. A fantastic topic for another thread. [wink]

[Calerioth]

Well, when I mention different planes of existence, I don't mean separate realities... more like different "layers" (For lack of a better word) of the same reality. It's just that because of those rules, those different layers aren't allowed to mix too much. And especially since those entities usually reside on the causal plane (In my opinion) it would be particularly difficult to call on them from the physical plane, with the astral plane in between them and certain rules to abide by. Once again, just my opinion. [crazy]

*Not to say that different universes don't exist. I believe they do. I just also happen to believe that there are different "layers" within those different realities. Also, I don't believe in the existence of all-powerful deities. Strange to say, what with me saying other entities exist, but I just don't.

[Zelator_Sith]

Based on my understanding.I think they are demons in the mind, but not just simply that. According to kabbalistic study Everything must be borne off the Astral plane so that there could be a physical manifestation. Therefore everything, a cabbage,a rock, even the tower of france has an equal "twin" in the astral plane. There can be no physical plane without the astral plane. There can be no morning breakfast if you only have eggs and no bacon.

So therefore to sum it up, what I think is they are both. They are demons of the mind that exist in the astral plane, It's like calling upon a part of yourself that you never used before and it needs a bit of time and mastery to perform well to make the demon manifest in the physical plane. Which is why you have help from "focal point" such as incense, black mirrors, etc for a faster and easier way for that "part of the mind from the astral" to manifest into this dimension meaning there is an equal and parallel clone of you in the astral thus proving that there are such things as dopplegangers just not in the physical plane [grin]

Godspeed!

[Asmus]

I would say that the astral plane, too, exists in your mind. I think what the ancient authors of those great Kabalistic texts were referring to when they said it existed in the "astral plane", was that everything must be born of our minds. If you've ever seen "The Matrix", you know what I'm talking about.

However, even going on your theory about the astral plane & kabalah... I don't see how this implies the existence of "doubles" (dopplegangers). Maybe you can enlighten me?

[Ramscha]

this entire conversation is assinine unless youre going to actual evoke something. second of all the goetia is bullshit, its a rip off of earlier grimoires. alot of whats in it is just christian idiocy.

And still this idiotic stuff works. As does the work of the golden Dawn.
Does not matter how much you hate it, a system is a system no matter its age and can be put to use. [eg]

[corvidus]

I've never performed an evocation ritual, but I have traveled to the planes where entities live. It took the use of special substances for me to get out of body, but in doing so it revealed a lot about the 'layers' of existence between us and them.

I believe it's Hindu philosophy that talks about the 'Veil of Maya', most commonly referred to as the Veil of Illusion. There's also the Genesis story which mentions on the seventh day God rested.

The point is that there's a division between the two worlds, or the incompletion of creation, and in order to imbibe the most volatile with the most subtle, a medium is necessary. The medium can be substances, ritual, or the coction of the individual's clairesentience.

If you're a skeptic, the Higgs Field would be a modern, Scientific equivalent (in my mind) to what I mentioned above.

[Ramscha]

I believe it's Hindu philosophy that talks about the 'Veil of Maya', most commonly referred to as the Veil of Illusion. There's also the Genesis story which mentions on the seventh day God rested.
The point is that there's a division between the two worlds, or the incompletion of creation, and in order to imbibe the most volatile with the most subtle, a medium is necessary. The medium can be substances, ritual, or the coction of the individual's clairesentience.

Well, but the world does not just consist of Hinduism and bible theorie. And so do myths of creation.

If you're a skeptic, the Higgs Field would be a modern, Scientific equivalent (in my mind) to what I mentioned above.

And another example of the usage of theoretical physics as crude background for magickal systems. [bummed]

[corvidus]

another example of the usage of theoretical physics as crude background for magickal systems. [bummed]

It was meant as an analogy for occult concepts and a starting point for further investigation. Some people learn from the feet up, some from the head down.

Science reveals a lot when you've developed Hermetic Vision. I agree it has a limited perception, but it studies the condensation of Hermetic Laws, and all offspring resemble their parents. The common saying is you'll never find an apple produced from an oak tree.

[Ramscha]

And another example of the usage of theoretical physics as crude background for magickal systems. [bummed]

this is so annoying. science will never explain sorcery or alchemy, its a child of both. this would be like a baby explaining to its mother the process of her getting pregnant, gestating, and having the same baby thats explaining it all. the only thing you can do is look at theoretical quantum stuff and be like "wow these asshats are coming to "conclusions" that we've had as UNDERSTANDINGS for thousands of years, and they spent ten years in college to do it.
the only people WOrried about scientific theories proving sorcery are the people who read and think about sorcery but never actually DO IT.

Well, you seemingly loose your coolness quite fast, my friend. No need for polemic speech.

Science is historically spoken a child of many parents. Philosophers and priests, scholars and magicians, Lords and Ladies all added their part.
It is not just alchemy and sorcery (though we possibly have a different understanding of those terms).

And conclusions are nice and everything, but you have to find a way to reach them. And I don't know what you mean with conclusions from quantum physics which we already knew thousands of years before but I would be surprised to find Heisenbergs Uncertainty principle, the outcome of Youngs double-slit experiment or anything similar on any ancient piece of papyri or smeared on a cave wall. Thing is, quantum physics isn't even a closed section, it is still open and filled with more black gaps then we can count and the things we actually know or can guess are poorly understood as well.

I agree with you on the last part though, simply because most people have a wrong impression of rock-solid scientific prove.

Ramscha

[corvidus]

Hi Nipha333

one of the most respected alchemists alive right now, who is also a Ph.D. scientist himself published a book showing that science and alchemy/sorcery ARE NOT the same and often cannot explain one another.

I agree with you, Alchemy and Science are not the same thing. Just like Alchemy and Sorcery are not the same thing.
That's why I oh so carefully said in my last post that the reference to the Higgs Field was an "analogy for occult concepts and a starting point for further investigation".

so your claim about "hermetic vision" to my eyes and ears is just a nice cover for not knowing shit [. . .] also can you please explain to me wtf "hermetic vision" is suposed to be?

Not until you ask nicely


------
But to get the thread back on track, I was trying to make the point that, according to my understanding of Nature, entities exist as separate consciousnesses. The reason an evocation ritual is needed, in my opinion, is to put the so-called sorcerer in the proper state of mind and to dissolve the barrier between the higher and the lower. These rituals aren't needed for everyone, depends on the individual's level of coction.

[Aunt Clair]

In the Red Book y Carl Jung this premise is proposed and answered through his life. He began as devout became ignostic, then atheist and raised his daughter atheist and then had profound mystic experiences in his late life and wrote this mystic tome. His daughter refused initially to publish it after his death being atheist still and fearing that her beloved father had lost his marbles. But he had passionately raised her that these archetypes were only the mythos of the mind and not real none of them and then as a senior citizen just as passionately taught her that Godhead did exist and that the archetypes were part of a universal source of consciousness that continually existed after death which could be accessed in meditation and dream state and other forms of alternate consciousness. She thought he was addlepated with age and had become foolish and refused to hear his "rants".

Robert Munro was similar in his pathworking as a mystic from a devout background to an affirmed atheist when he toured the afterlife realms he felt that these spirits were stuck in an imaginary heaven but that there was no God but in the end of his life he had come full circle and professed that God did exist.

The Goetia are like humans complex in nature as modeled in the Hermetic Sphinx;
Fire Lion ; reunion in meditation with the Higher Self within
Earth Bull ; communion with the red internal demons and their transmutation
Water Eagle; mystic projection and communion with the Guardian Angel projecting from the head
Air Angelic Human -Ascension of the soul and consciousness through pathworking
The Goetia is archdemonic, demon, totem, human, angel, archangel, avatar and more.
Kaballah teaches that the form should not be evoked but that the magickian should attend its lessons when it appears in its season. The form will typically appear in a monstrous demonic beastlike form and soften losing horns, hooves and tail becoming human and then becoming radiant and winged and angelic and if the lessons are completed well then the avatar or God form is revealed.

Typically the lessons are learnt through the honest espousal of virtues especially through loving and forgiving.

The archetypes like all Kabballah many levels of understanding;
As metaphors of myths which explain human foible and nature
as literal knowledge of the nature of a male only single God
as the personal mythos found in reflection
as an exegesic mythos found in deeper contemplation and research
as spiritual wisdoms of the ancient eclectic Abba white sun father and Ama black moon mother
as the universal mythos found in meditation
as mystical pathways to realms and evocations of avataric spirits and their curriculum
et cetera

[Lumpino]

Evocation a supernatural being is possible. I tried it several times. But, caution should be exercised, who - what one summon. For summoning most beings is sufficient a meditation about a name of a being. It take a time, but does not irritate them so much. Meditation on the name of a deity, for example, performs some bhakti yogis, as Ramakrishna called goddess Kali.
But with demons such a procedure is often very dangerous. [evil]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TCfNFckx6Q

[manonthepath]

I, for one, find it a little bit far fetched that there are entities out there that are invisible to me unless I perform a ritual. Rather, i see these entities and their VERY DISTINCT personalities as different "i's", to put it gurdjeffely. I would like to know how the people on this forum feel about evoked "spirits". Are they some kind of other-worldly beings with preternatural abilities, or are they rather different portions of our mind, and personality?

Also, i would like to take this opportunity to report some sillyness concerning the "spirit" I like the most in the Goetia: Asmodeus. If you know about him, you know he's often associated with lust (along with knowledge and strategy); but Asmodeus only really "lusted" after one person in any recorded event, and he quit once he killed her or her family (i do believe). I would like to call some bullshit to the Goetia in regards to this unfair representation of this otherwise unblemished... entity.

They are both....and much, much more. What's the difference anyway? It's not like you can do anything about it. [rolleyes]