Parchment?

[Hm]

Some rituals from old (?) books often use parchments. I understand that it had quite a different position in ancient times but nowadays it's very hard to get and expensive. Is there some special reason why to use explicitly parchments and not just sheets of paper? Is a ritual outlined on paper less effective and if so, why?

[Ramscha]

Earlier it was expensive as well and there was not much else to write on. Clay, stone and wood carving and chalk, but there was not much else.
If we assume that those books (whatever books you specifically mean, I will just go with Agrippa as example) are really that old and did not change that much over the years (unlikely...), than it is simply that time moved on but the written word did not of course. Otherwise they might would have suggested to write it onto a tablet computer, who knows?

Today it is a matter of Style I guess. Of course you could add that parchment comes from animal hide and this is important because of energy stuff and so (paper comes from trees, so there is also life....), but I would leave that in the corner of "personal taste". If you like parchment, go with parchment, if you prefer paper, go with paper. Or draw with your own blood onto the raw hide of a goat, whatever serves your need.

Long story short: I know of no reason why paper should work less well then parchment.

Ramscha

[RoseRed]

I've used the parchment paper that's found in the same aisle as tin foil and saran wrap. It's a different type of paper.

[Bekee]

Most likely parchment is specified in these older books because that was the cheapest paper of the day. I would personally only use true parchment if it were for a special charm that I was going to reuse for a long time. Sometimes I compromise and use the fancy "parchment paper" that's just printed to look like parchment.

But if you want to give it a try, here is a place you can get some real parchment: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Real-Medieval-P ... 20b09edd57

[Desecrated]

Virgin parchment was used because it was the purest that could be used.
Virgin means freshly made from a young animal that has never been used for anything else then being paper.,

You can buy cheap parchment from old animals like milk cows, but this is to contaminated to be used for christian magic.



Now, in todays society getting your hand on real parchment isn't really that hard. I found it at a store for LARP and Medieval reenactment.
It's not even that expensive.



The Grimorium Verum explains magical tools the best and I recommend eveybody to get it.

[Lumpino]

I think that do not may be the parchment. In old Egypt was used for example mostly papyrus. And by my opinion you could used a new clear paper.

[Clockwork Ghost]

Some rituals from old (?) books often use parchments. I understand that it had quite a different position in ancient times but nowadays it's very hard to get and expensive. Is there some special reason why to use explicitly parchments and not just sheets of paper? Is a ritual outlined on paper less effective and if so, why?

What you're referring to is Vellum. Like Desecrated and Ramscha mention above, it was originally made from calf skin, not paper. It was used because that was what they had in those days. Like Ramscha says, using paper is completely acceptable. If you need quality paper, use that instead - you can buy top quality paper stock from many places.

[Desecrated]

Some rituals from old (?) books often use parchments. I understand that it had quite a different position in ancient times but nowadays it's very hard to get and expensive. Is there some special reason why to use explicitly parchments and not just sheets of paper? Is a ritual outlined on paper less effective and if so, why?

What you're referring to is Vellum. Like Desecrated and Ramscha mention above, it was originally made from calf skin, not paper. It was used because that was what they had in those days. Like Ramscha says, using paper is completely acceptable. If you need quality paper, use that instead - you can buy top quality paper stock from many places.

Actually paper is really old (150ad) an by the time most magic books was written it was a viable option.
Wax was also used in Europe and papyrus scrolls or other plant material was used up until the printing press came along. Strips of leather, bark and leaves was common as well.

But parchment was the fine stuff.

Vellum is made from cowskin and is a french invention, Pergamum and parchment are made from sheep or goat skin.

The Grimorium Verum calls specifically for parchment made of a young lamb, killed during a specific time and date and should be killed by yourself, using your own handmade ritual dagger, and there is a shitload of spells/prayers you have to recite also.

[Bekee]

Actually paper is really old (150ad) an by the time most magic books was written it was a viable option.
Wax was also used in Europe and papyrus scrolls or other plant material was used up until the printing press came along. Strips of leather, bark and leaves was common as well.

Most grimoires that ask one to use parchment post-date the papyrus days and usually don't originate from the part of the world where that plant was commonplace. It's said the Muslims learned paper making from the Chinese in about the 8th century, and in the 11th and 12th century paper began to turn up in parts of Europe that had had contact with the Muslim world. It didn't become common in Europe till after printed books became popular (it was too difficult to make enough vellum or parchment for a print run of 1,000 books all at once -- as poor Gutenberg learned early on -- so there was suddenly a sharp increase in demand for paper.) Even then, our modern wood-pulp paper is a little different from the old style substance, which was more reliant on cloth rags for its base. I suspect this is why it wasn't popular with magicians, as it meant it was kind of inherently made from recycled materials.

[Desecrated]

Actually paper is really old (150ad) an by the time most magic books was written it was a viable option.
Wax was also used in Europe and papyrus scrolls or other plant material was used up until the printing press came along. Strips of leather, bark and leaves was common as well.

Most grimoires that ask one to use parchment post-date the papyrus days and usually don't originate from the part of the world where that plant was commonplace. It's said the Muslims learned paper making from the Chinese in about the 8th century, and in the 11th and 12th century paper began to turn up in parts of Europe that had had contact with the Muslim world. It didn't become common in Europe till after printed books became popular (it was too difficult to make enough vellum or parchment for a print run of 1,000 books all at once -- as poor Gutenberg learned early on -- so there was suddenly a sharp increase in demand for paper.) Even then, our modern wood-pulp paper is a little different from the old style substance, which was more reliant on cloth rags for its base. I suspect this is why it wasn't popular with magicians, as it meant it was kind of inherently made from recycled materials.

Most grimores are from 13th to 17th century.
They usually claim to be much older, but to be honest most of them are Medieval and Renaissance.

[Clockwork Ghost]

Most grimores are from 13th to 17th century.
They usually claim to be much older, but to be honest most of them are Medieval and Renaissance.

Not entirely true if you're talking about the 'grimoire' per se. Remember, the word 'grimoire' is simply a term that refers to a book of magic. I'd agree that many of the grimoires in circulation today are Medieval at the earliest, but there are a fair few Gnostic texts (and others) which pre-date the period. [grin]

[Desecrated]

Most grimores are from 13th to 17th century.
They usually claim to be much older, but to be honest most of them are Medieval and Renaissance.

Not entirely true if you're talking about the 'grimoire' per se. Remember, the word 'grimoire' is simply a term that refers to a book of magic. I'd agree that many of the grimoires in circulation today are Medieval at the earliest, but there are a fair few Gnostic texts (and others) which pre-date the period. [grin]

Most.

[Clockwork Ghost]

Not entirely true if you're talking about the 'grimoire' per se. Remember, the word 'grimoire' is simply a term that refers to a book of magic. I'd agree that many of the grimoires in circulation today are Medieval at the earliest, but there are a fair few Gnostic texts (and others) which pre-date the period. [grin]

Most.

Eight cultures who created written tomes of magick, aka grimoires, that pre-date the Medieval period, to which still exist written reproductions and/or documentation:

1. Mesopotamia
2. Egypt
3. Macedonia
4. Greece
5. Persia
6. Israel
7. Babylonia
8. Rome

[Bekee]

Most grimores are from 13th to 17th century.
They usually claim to be much older, but to be honest most of them are Medieval and Renaissance.

And at that, even when they're copied from legitimate older sources, they tend to exist in modified forms. Just look at all the slightly different instructions for the Solomon grimoires!

Anyway, I tried to be specific in my post above -- grimoires that ask for parchment are usually too new to expect papyrus as any kind of alternative, as papyrus went out of use around the start of the middle ages due to better paper-making alternatives being developed, and again, wasn't a common material in northern Europe anyway. (Most of our grimoires, even those that might have origin in Egypt, Greece or Arabia, are copies of English, French and German provenance.)

[Desecrated]

Not entirely true if you're talking about the 'grimoire' per se. Remember, the word 'grimoire' is simply a term that refers to a book of magic. I'd agree that many of the grimoires in circulation today are Medieval at the earliest, but there are a fair few Gnostic texts (and others) which pre-date the period. [grin]

Most.

Eight cultures who created written tomes of magick, aka grimoires, that pre-date the Medieval period, to which still exist written reproductions and/or documentation:

1. Mesopotamia
2. Egypt
3. Macedonia
4. Greece
5. Persia
6. Israel
7. Babylonia
8. Rome

Actually grimore is a specific genre of magical books. At least that is how they are dealt with in a library system.
In the sloane MS collection grimores are specifically books written after the bible but that contains biblical references and magic.

The Greek heka is not included in this, neither is the cuniform or papyri of earlier civilizations.
The mystery sect of the Mediterranean world is also a separate group of texts since they are more of a religious nature then magical, but some of then certainly contain magic.
There has been a lot of debate if gnosis should be considered the same as grimores, but for now they are not.

Not all books are the same just because they are books.

[Bekee]

I was looking for something totally unrelated in Pliny and stumbled across this chapter from his Natural History, telling about papyrus papers for those who might be interested:

CHAP. 23. (12)—THE NINE DIFFERENT KINDS OF PAPER.

Paper is made from the papyrus, by splitting it with a needle into very thin leaves, due care being taken that they should be as broad as possible. That of the first quality is taken from the centre of the plant, and so in regular succession, according to the order of division. "Hieratica"1 was the name that was anciently given to it, from the circumstance that it was entirely reserved for the religious books. In later times, through a spirit of adulation, it received the name of "Augusta," just as that of second quality was called "Liviana," from his wife, Livia; the consequence of which was, that the name "hieratica" came to designate that of only third-rate quality. The paper of the next quality was called "amphitheatrica," from the locality2 of its manufacture. The skilful manufactory that was established by Fannius3 at Rome, was in the habit of receiving this last kind, and there, by a very careful process of insertion, it was rendered much finer; so much so, that from being a common sort, he made it a paper of first-rate quality, and gave his own4 name to it: while that which was not subjected to this additional process retained its original name of "amphitheatrica." Next to this is the Saitic paper, so called from the city of that name,5 where it is manufactured in very large quantities, though of cuttings of inferior6 quality. The Tæniotic paper, so called from a place in the vicinity,7 is manufactured from the materials that lie nearer to the outside skin; it is sold, not according to its quality, but by weight only. As to the paper that is known as "emporetica,"8 it is quite useless for writing upon, and is only employed for wrapping up other paper, and as a covering for various articles of merchandize, whence its name, as being used by dealers. After this comes the bark of the papyrus, the outer skin of which bears a strong resemblance to the bulrush, and is solely used for making ropes, and then only for those which have to go into the water.9
All these various kinds of paper are made upon a table, moistened with Nile water; a liquid which, when in a muddy state, has the peculiar qualities of glue.10 This table being first inclined,11 the leaves of papyrus are laid upon it lengthwise, as long, indeed, as the papyrus will admit of, the jagged edges being cut off at either end; after which a cross layer is placed over it, the same way, in fact, that hurdles are made. When this is done, the leaves are pressed close together, and then dried in the sun; after which they are united to one another, the best sheets being always taken first, and the inferior ones added afterwards. There are never more than twenty of these sheets to a roll.12

1 Or "holy" paper. The priests would not allow it to be sold, lest it might be used for profane writing; but after it was once written upon, it was easily procurable. The Romans were in the habit of purchasing it largely in the latter state, and then washing off the writing, and using it as paper of the finest quality. Hence it received the name of "Augustus," as representing in Latin its Greek name "hieraticus," or "sacred." In length of time it became the common impression, as here mentioned, that this name was given to it in honour of Augusus Cæsar.

2 Near the amphitheatre, probably, of Alexandria.

3 He alludes to Q. Remmius Fannius Palæmon, a famous grammarian of Rome, though originally a slave. Being mantumitted, he opened a school at Rome, which was resorted to by great numbers of pupils, notwithstanding his notoriously bad character lie appears to have established, also, a manufactory for paper at Rome. Suetonius, in his treatise on Illustrious Grammarians, gives a long account of him. He is supposed to have been the preceptor of Quintilian.

4 Fanniana.

5 In Lower Egypt.

6 Ex vilioribus ramentis.

7 Of Alexandria, probably.

8 "Shop-paper," or "paper of commerce."

9 Otherwise, probably, the rope would not long hold together.

10 Fée remarks, that this is by no means the fact. With M. Poiret, he questions the accuracy of Pliny's account of preparing the papyrus, and is of opinion that it refers more probably to the treatment of some other vegetable substance from which paper was made.

11 Primo supinâ tabule schedâ.

12 "Scapus." This was, properly, the cylinder on which the paper was rolled.